[Crantag]

Interesting point. Thee healthcare in the US is certainly decentralized. You have federal programs, state programs, even county programs. All of which have their redundancies and associated risk pools.

Nope.

He's wrong.

To any extent to which he is right, a national system may be more efficient, but in our current model, the state systems are not an inefficiency, they are something which fills gaps.

[Pants-of-dog]

A private model will always have more bureaucracy and administrators. This is because there are so many more actors and all of them have to keep records of all their interactions with each other, resulting in a ton of work duplication. So that is one aspect.

And a private model will always cost more because of profit. If the real cost of a treatment is $100, the public system can pay $100 and keep working while the private model needs to charge that plus 15% for every contractor and subcontractor.

Plus the private model has additional costs that the public system does not, like advertising.

And there are also price controls. These obviously reduce costs significantly. These supposedly cause shortages, but that does not really apply to medical treatments. This is because the traditional reason for shortages is that people rush out and buy a bunch of price controlled goods because they are so cheap. But no one is going to go out and buy more chemotherapy or prostate exams than they need, so this does not apply.

[Rancid]

A private model will always have more bureaucracy and administrators. This is because there are so many more actors and all of them have to keep records of all their interactions with each other, resulting in a ton of work duplication. So that is one aspect.

And a private model will always cost more because of profit. If the real cost of a treatment is $100, the public system can pay $100 and keep working while the private model needs to charge that plus 15% for every contractor and subcontractor.

Plus the private model has additional costs that the public system does not, like advertising.

And there are also price controls. These obviously reduce costs significantly. These supposedly cause shortages, but that does not really apply to medical treatments. This is because the traditional reason for shortages is that people rush out and buy a bunch of price controlled goods because they are so cheap. But no one is going to go out and buy more chemotherapy or prostate exams than they need, so this does not apply.

All of this is Satanic Lies.

THE FREER THE MARKET THE UNHEALTHIER THE PEOPLE!

[wat0n]

@late did have it right, but not in the way you say.



Indeed, the surplus goes to the private health insurance companies, and the private hospitals.

I certainly recognize that markets are good for many things, providing health insurance is not one of them.

Health insurance should be public, and without profit motive.

Insurance happens to be something bureaucracy can actually do very well. It is all math.

The portion of the cost excess in the American system is attributable to the profits, and also to funding the 'sales effort' of the private companies, which dominate healthcare in the US.

So how do you explain that Germany has private for-profit insurers and its healthcare works okay?

[Crantag]

So how do you explain that Germany has private for-profit insurers and its healthcare works okay?

I've never lived in Germany, and don't know much about the particulars of their healthcare system.

I am however acutely aware that the 'Bismark model' is regarded in the literature as one of the forerunners of European style national healthcare.

[wat0n]

I've never lived in Germany, and don't know much about the particulars of their healthcare system.

I am however acutely aware that the 'Bismark model' is regarded in the literature as one of the forerunners of European style national healthcare.

It's one of the two. The other is the Beveridge model, i.e. the UK's NHS (literally).

[Crantag]

It's one of the two. The other is the Beveridge model, i.e. the UK's NHS (literally).

The Beverage Model is post-WW2. The Bismark model is a lot older.

Again, I don't know the ins and outs of the Bismark Model, but I do know it is commonly regarded as one of the first national healthcare schemes.

[Unthinking Majority]

So, here is the question. As ICU beds fill up to 90% capacity in some states, do doctors owe an ethical duty to those who refused COVID vaccination without good medical cause over those who did vaccinate against COVID in COVID related cases that require the use of the ICU?

The vaccinated should probably get priority, all else being equal. I wouldn't let an unvaccinated person die though in favor of helping a vaccinated person who wasn't in danger of death.

[Godstud]

Administration costs in American healthcare account for about 24%.

How Administrative Spending Contributes To Excess US Health Spending
https://www.healthaffairs.org/do/10.137 ... 5060/full/

[Politics_Observer]

@Unthinking Majority

The vaccinated should probably get priority, all else being equal. I wouldn't let an unvaccinated person die though in favor of helping a vaccinated person who wasn't in danger of death.

I agree.

[XogGyux]

The vaccinated should probably get priority, all else being equal. I wouldn't let an unvaccinated person die though in favor of helping a vaccinated person who wasn't in danger of death.

Again, ignoring the logistics nightmare that accurately tracking that info is... some of which we cannot really do because we already vaccinated half the country without keeping such records.
Then there is the issue of...
How about if you get 2 people, one is a rapist the other is a priest? Who gets care first? What about a priest that is also a rapists (apparently, it is a farily commong occurence ).
Perhaps if they have a substance abuse we should not give them priority. How about we rank the substance? Caffeine gets treated first, then marijuana, then tobacco, then alcohol, then amphetamines, lastly cocaine and heroine addicts?
How about if we rank their usefulness to society as well. Perhaps we should treat a 25year old engineer prior to a 57 year old clerk?
Or perhaps if they have any genetic defect, say trisomy 21 (down syndrome) that patient should be treated last? Wait a minute, why stop there, why don't we make a list of people that should not reproduce... why should society have to bear the burden of paying for the healthcare cost of patients with sickle cell disease? Their care cost millions over their lifetime.... Or people with disabilities... they need constant care around the clock.
You get the point? Healthcare is not, and should not, be used as any sort of barganship and/or punishment. If you are willing to cross any sort of ethical boundaries, just make the stupid vaccines mandatory and stop fantacizing about how to kill your political oponent

[wat0n]

Again, ignoring the logistics nightmare that accurately tracking that info is... some of which we cannot really do because we already vaccinated half the country without keeping such records.
Then there is the issue of...
How about if you get 2 people, one is a rapist the other is a priest? Who gets care first? What about a priest that is also a rapists (apparently, it is a farily commong occurence ).
Perhaps if they have a substance abuse we should not give them priority. How about we rank the substance? Caffeine gets treated first, then marijuana, then tobacco, then alcohol, then amphetamines, lastly cocaine and heroine addicts?
How about if we rank their usefulness to society as well. Perhaps we should treat a 25year old engineer prior to a 57 year old clerk?
Or perhaps if they have any genetic defect, say trisomy 21 (down syndrome) that patient should be treated last? Wait a minute, why stop there, why don't we make a list of people that should not reproduce... why should society have to bear the burden of paying for the healthcare cost of patients with sickle cell disease? Their care cost millions over their lifetime.... Or people with disabilities... they need constant care around the clock.
You get the point? Healthcare is not, and should not, be used as any sort of barganship and/or punishment. If you are willing to cross any sort of ethical boundaries, just make the stupid vaccines mandatory and stop fantacizing about how to kill your political oponent

The vaccination data is kept by the States and sent to the CDC under the IIS.

https://www.cdc.gov/vaccines/programs/iis/index.html

The figures the CDC publishes with the number of vaccinated people and doses administered comes from that. As such, it's definitely possible to query that DB in real time for the most part.

[XogGyux]

The vaccination data is kept by the States and sent to the CDC under the IIS.

https://www.cdc.gov/vaccines/programs/iis/index.html

The figures the CDC publishes with the number of vaccinated people and doses administered comes from that. As such, it's definitely possible to query that DB in real time for the most part.

Cocacola can tell you how many cases of cherry-flavored cola they sold on each zip code, but they cannot tell you when was the last time that I had a sip of one. Likewise, the federal government might be able to tell you where the vaccines were given but I don't believe they know who got them, at least not with any sort of reliability. For one, there are a multitude of jurisdictions, states, cities, counties. When I took my vaccine I only gave my name and that is because I was scheduling an appointment... I didn't give my phone number, social security number, date of birth or address. I suspect this was intentional, I don't believe they wanted to feed into the fear/paranoia of some lunatics that were already thinking that a chip was getting injected. Out of curiosity I checked the site that you linked, I looked up my states and it only mentions child vaccinations. I am unaware if a system for children vaccination tracking exists, perhaps a pediatrician might have better insight. I don't know if it is compulsory or if it is a service that you have to manually/voluntarily fill up and/or if your pediatrician needs to do it... after all, someone has to enter the data.

This is from the site in your link:

CDC does NOT have vaccination record information!

It is in red, bold and at the very top of the page.

Even if they kept records... Vaccines are given in hospitals, pharmacies, grocery stores, drive-throughs. I work in a hospital, full of trained professionals and I see typos on patient's names, DOB, etc on a daily basis, and these are TRAINED for their job. The idea of providing sub-par care to someone based exclusively on some poorly kept database is cringe at so many levels, it is very disturbing.

[wat0n]

Cocacola can tell you how many cases of cherry-flavored cola they sold on each zip code, but they cannot tell you when was the last time that I had a sip of one. Likewise, the federal government might be able to tell you where the vaccines were given but I don't believe they know who got them, at least not with any sort of reliability. For one, there are a multitude of jurisdictions, states, cities, counties. When I took my vaccine I only gave my name and that is because I was scheduling an appointment... I didn't give my phone number, social security number, date of birth or address. I suspect this was intentional, I don't believe they wanted to feed into the fear/paranoia of some lunatics that were already thinking that a chip was getting injected. Out of curiosity I checked the site that you linked, I looked up my states and it only mentions child vaccinations. I am unaware if a system for children vaccination tracking exists, perhaps a pediatrician might have better insight. I don't know if it is compulsory or if it is a service that you have to manually/voluntarily fill up and/or if your pediatrician needs to do it... after all, someone has to enter the data.

This is from the site in your link:

It is in red, bold and at the very top of the page.

Even if they kept records... Vaccines are given in hospitals, pharmacies, grocery stores, drive-throughs. I work in a hospital, full of trained professionals and I see typos on patient's names, DOB, etc on a daily basis, and these are TRAINED for their job. The idea of providing sub-par care to someone based exclusively on some poorly kept database is cringe at so many levels, it is very disturbing.

States have the actual records, even if the CDC doesn't. That's why the website tells you to contact your state if you want to access your own record and gives you the contact info for each one of them:

https://www.cdc.gov/vaccines/programs/i ... cords.html

Clearly, hospitals could be given the ability to query those DBs... It is materially possible to do so in real time.

[XogGyux]

States have the actual records, even if the CDC doesn't. That's why the website tells you to contact your state if you want to access your own record and gives you the contact info for each one of them:

https://www.cdc.gov/vaccines/programs/i ... cords.html

Clearly, hospitals could be given the ability to query those DBs... It is materially possible to do so in real time.

Ok, you don't have to tell me your name/info. Just try to go to your state's and see if you can look yourself up.
I tried for myself. This is for children, their MMRs and shit.

[wat0n]

Ok, you don't have to tell me your name/info. Just try to go to your state's and see if you can look yourself up.
I tried for myself. This is for children, their MMRs and shit.

There's one for COVID vaccines too. The states should make you sign a consent form for it - how else can they keep track for the appointments for second doses? And how else do you think you got texted for the post shot follow up by the CDC?

[XogGyux]

There's one for COVID vaccines too. The states should make you sign a consent form for it - how else can they keep track for the appointments for second doses? And how else do you think you got texted for the post shot follow up by the CDC?

The patient keeps track with the card that they got. Individual places might additionally keep track, but again this is at a local level, not a massive database. Your doctor might now, maybe your pharmacy might know, but if you are hospitalized the hospital does not know unless you tell them. Bro, im working with this shit, i am telling you, the way we know is based on what the patient says. If there is a database somewhere I am the first one that wants to know.

[Crantag]

Do we, as normal human beings, have an ethical responsibility to walk Donald Trump and George Bush to the gallows?

Covid is very fucking bad here right now.

Trumptards abide here.

Look at the bullshit that fool propagated, the orange fuck, named Trump.

I have plenty of rope here.

I'll start building the gallows.

Let me know how you draw in this poll.

[wat0n]

The patient keeps track with the card that they got. Individual places might additionally keep track, but again this is at a local level, not a massive database. Your doctor might now, maybe your pharmacy might know, but if you are hospitalized the hospital does not know unless you tell them. Bro, im working with this shit, i am telling you, the way we know is based on what the patient says. If there is a database somewhere I am the first one that wants to know.

And you do, this is what the information sheet they gave me when I got my first shot says about immunization recording:



I actually know about the IIS and the type of info there because of my job (I won't elaborate further). If it is not being used to let anyone query this sort of info in real time is due to HIPAA and other privacy laws, that is, due to the fact that society has thus far valued privacy the most (understandable, if anything, yet a pandemic caused by a new disease probably counts as an exceptional time). But that the material possibility exists to do so, well it does exist.

[Crantag]

And you do, this is what the information sheet they gave me when I got my first shot says about immunization recording:



I actually know about the IIS and the type of info there because of my job (I won't elaborate further). If it is not being used to let anyone query this sort of info in real time is due to HIPAA and other privacy laws, that is, due to the fact that society has thus far valued privacy the most (understandable, if anything, yet a pandemic caused by a new disease probably counts as an exceptional time). But that the material possibility exists to do so, well it does exist.

America is pretty fucked up.

What @XogGyux has said, was exceedingly believable and typical.

I don't believe you are American.

His descriptions of the system completely jived with common sense, for those in the shithole country, America.