[Patrickov]

The USA supported a dictatorship in Taiwan, from what I recall.

Specifically, the USA supported the Kuomintang during the White Terror.

Is that a good thing?

For both Taiwan and South Korea, the US also encouraged or influenced their change for good.

[Patrickov]

[I never mentioned the word "Taiwan" anywhere. Fuck your mealy mouth bullshit.

1. Rich said it and
2. you condemned him as delusional.
In effect you implied that point. It's not necessary for you to say it directly.

Does this reveal that you had not read his post carefully before poo-pooing him?

[Godstud]

You're looking for specifics in a generalization, @Patrickov.

Had I implied his point about Taiwan, I would have used the word TAIWAN in 10 foot tall letters, you simpleton.

It doesn't matter and that's obviously not what I meant, right? I've already clarified that for you, several times.

US doing a few good deeds doesn't make up for what they've done in numerous wars, occupations and invasions. Even Tawian doesn't make up for that. Is that clear enough for your myopic ability to see?

[Patrickov]

You're looking for specifics in a generalization.

Exactly my point. Sometime when we generalize we hit landmines.

[Godstud]

No. There was no landmine. You were reading something into something I never said. It's over. I never said shit about Taiwan. Fuck Taiwan. I don't give a fuck about it. It's part of China, just as Hong Kong is.

[Patrickov]

No. There was no landmine. You were reading something into something I never said. It's over. I never said shit about Taiwan.

There was. In scolding Rich being delusional without reading his whole message you hit one.

Fuck Taiwan. I don't give a fuck about it. It's part of China, just as Hong Kong is.

Your true colours, then.
(EDIT: The above sentence is retracted / declared non-genuine. See my next post)

[Godstud]

Yes, @Patrickov, I am tired of your sanctimonious nonsense. I disagree with your opinion. That doesn't make me bad or anything. I just don't agree with you. Your true colours are pretty shit.

Fact: Hong Kong is part of China.
Hong Kong is a special administrative region of the People's Republic of China that has been largely free to manage its own affairs based on “one country, two systems,” a national unification policy developed by Chinese leader Deng Xiaoping in the 1980s.

Fact: Taiwan is part of China.
The Republic of China government received Taiwan in 1945 from Japan, then fled in 1949 to Taiwan with the aim to retake mainland China. Both the ROC and the PRC still officially (constitutionally) claim mainland China and the Taiwan Area as part of their respective territories.

[Patrickov]

Fact: Hong Kong is part of China.
Hong Kong is a special administrative region of the People's Republic of China that has been largely free to manage its own affairs based on “one country, two systems,” a national unification policy developed by Chinese leader Deng Xiaoping in the 1980s.

Fact: Taiwan is part of China.
The Republic of China government received Taiwan in 1945 from Japan, then fled in 1949 to Taiwan with the aim to retake mainland China. Both the ROC and the PRC still officially (constitutionally) claim mainland China and the Taiwan Area as part of their respective territories.

As I said in another thread, these facts don't mean one cannot say "some changes are needed"., but I think I will stop here.

Some point during our discussion, you seem so irritated that I should see your most recent statements as out of frustration rather than genuine.
I'd like to, therefore, retract the sentence "Your true colours then" and say sorry to you on it.

[Godstud]

As I said in another thread, these facts don't mean one cannot say "some changes are needed"., but I think I will stop here.

I will not disagree with you, on that front.

Some point during our discussion, you seem so irritated that I should see your most recent statements as out of frustration rather than genuine.
I'd like to, therefore, retract the sentence "Your true colours then" and say sorry to you on it.

Thank you, and for my part I regret what I said. I was indeed reacting to what I saw as an insult. My apologies. Let's start over.

Whereas I see these as facts, I do not mean to say that Taiwan or Hong Kong shouldn't be in control of their own principalities. I am merely being pragmatic and doubt that it will be so. China is a superpower in a different way than USA, and all the bad that goes with that.

[Crantag]

I don't really see Taiwan as technically a part of China, as it has never been a part of modern China, it's where the losing side in the civil war fled, and set up a state.

I don't like to talk technical about these sorts of matters, you might say though that Hong Kong is technically a part of China, in the sense that it was transferred to China by the British in the '90s.

I can understand Member Patrickov's frustrations, but Member Godstud also has a right to his points, and I don't think he comes with any ill will.

Member Patrickov is quite reactionary sometimes.

But, I think it's all good, yeah.

I can understand why Member Patrickov is pissed by the increased and ever increasing Mainland Chinese influence, though.

[boomerintown]

Isnt a good way to see it that a country de facto exist through a violence monopoly combined with its citizens feeling as a part of the country, but perhaps de jure when enough other countries recognize its existance?

I dont think anybody questions that Taiwan exist as a de facto country, and we treat it as such aswell.

So what are the reasons to not recognize it? There is no principal stand here from anyone, this is about possible retributions from China. Lithuania recently recognized Taiwans existance and now China is trying its best to make Lithuania pay for it.

And here is where USA comes in. As I wrote earlier:

The question is just what the alternative to USA as a "world police" is?

Perhaps it is the case that USA is the superpower that showed the least respect for human rights in the history of humanity except every other we have seen (including China today)?

The only country which can truly stand up to China in issues like this is USA. Right now it is thanks to USA that China cannot invade Taiwan, more or less, and I hope the US too will recognize of its existance, paving the way for the rest of the west.

[Fasces]

So what are the reasons to not recognize it?

It's deliberately antagonistic of a regional great power (realpolitik reason) and it goes against the wishes of the Taiwanese population (principled reason).

[boomerintown]

It's deliberately antagonistic of a regional great power (realpolitik reason) and it goes against the wishes of the Taiwanese population (principled reason).

I wrote in the next sentence: "There is no principal stand here from anyone, this is about possible retributions from China."

So the real political reasons we are in agreement with.

With it going against the wishes of the taiwanese people, you refer to their claim of China as a whole?

But to sort out your claim, if the option is between the current situation and being recognized as a country by the rest of the world you say that the majority of the taiwanese population prefer the former alternative?

[Crantag]

For the record, and I am not wishing for it (I rather wish against it), I expect China will eventually take over Taiwan.

Maybe not, no one can predict the future.

Politics moves slow, but I could see it as the odds on favorite that China will take over Taiwan within the next 20 years.

However, here China is only a slight favorite, and I am not a confident booky here in presenting China as the favorite, it's a close one.

Taiwan is at worst, certainly a live dog to maintain it's independence.

I don't really want China taking these places over and crushing their scene.

China is cool, but it also sucks.

The uniformity of China is one of the things that sucks the most.

Like everywhere is the fucking same.

Yeah, it is sorta like fuck China, but I mean, to stick to the point, I don't want the scenes in places like Taiwan and Hong Kong to be crushed, and uniformed into the main sphere.

I don't know what will happen with Taiwan, I hope they stay independent. And I hope they get 'international recognition' (It is painful to use mainstream political concepts like the one I just put in quotes, for separate reasons, unrelated to Taiwan 'independents'.)

[Fasces]

With it going against the wishes of the taiwanese people, you refer to their claim of China as a whole?

I mean, based on public opinion polls, the Taiwanese people overwhelming prefer the status quo situation to any declaration of independence, or recognition of independence.



It's very easy to say that we, far away from the front-line, should recognize Taiwanese sovereignty - but the Taiwanese people are the ones that would pay for the consequences of that decision, and they do not want us to recognize them. The war would be in their neighborhoods. The deaths would be theirs.

They prefer the current status quo, by a significant margin.

Recognizing Taiwanese independence, against their wishes, would be to play with the lives of tens of millions for a feel good political "win" for men and women thousands of miles away who wouldn't be subject to the consequences of that decision.

[Crantag]

I mean, based on public opinion polls, the Taiwanese people overwhelming prefer the status quo situation to any declaration of independence, or recognition of independence.



It's very easy to say that we, far away from the front-line, should recognize Taiwanese sovereignty - but the Taiwanese people are the ones that would pay for the consequences of that decision, and they do not want us to recognize them. The war would be in their neighborhoods. The deaths would be theirs.

They prefer the current status quo, by a significant margin.

Recognizing Taiwanese independence, against their wishes, would be to play with the lives of tens of millions for a feel good political "win" for men and women thousands of miles away who wouldn't be subject to the consequences of that decision.

Fuck polls, though.

You can almost read between the lines in the poll.

In the conservative society there, people largely are answering in the way they consider the most non-controversial.

I think most Taiwanese people identify with Taiwan as really its own country.

Most 'mainland Chinese' identify it as part of 'China', which is what they have been trained to do.

[Fasces]

I think most Taiwanese people identify with Taiwan as really its own country.

OK.

Let them take the first step.

At the moment, only 5% of the Taiwanese population is confident enough to say they want independence tomorrow, and 30% independence tomorrow or at some point in the future. If the United States were to recognize Taiwanese independence tomorrow, they would be going against the wishes of the Taiwanese people, and they'd be playing a very dangerous game with the lives of people who can't even vote for the the US politicians making that decision.

I think pushing for unilateral recognition of Taiwan at this point is fundamentally selfish and immoral. It is a cynical 'Cold War' play that does not help the Taiwanese.

[B0ycey]

...people largely are answering in the way they consider the most non-controversial.

What does it matter how or why they answer? The poll does imply they don't want to be recognised and we should respect that. And perhaps that is mainly because they have all the advantages of a sovereign state without the title and it doesn't send them to war. It was also interesting that the were lukewarm on Aukus in the sense they welcomed it but said they didn't want them to get involved and they can look after themselves.

Besides, Taiwan is a funny topic anyway. Maybe not in our lifetime, but the growing opinions of unification on the island seems to suggest they may well become part of China without a single fire shot and of course China could take over Taiwan tomorrow but haven't which suggests they are more than happy to wait. The West can have all the pacts they like, they simply cannot defend Taiwan the same way China couldn't take over Hawaii. Geography matters and you have to get troops over the Pacific without being sunk. There is no reason to have collateral damage and basically sent Taiwan to rubble when the people will fight non stop for their dependence and if you want to win the hearts and mind of those people, war is NEVER the answer. Afghanistan wasn't lost because America didn't have desire or the military strength but because the Taliban would rather die than surrender and Taiwan would be the same. And given as I said unification seems to be a growing trend, China will get what they want in any case.

[boomerintown]

I think pushing for unilateral recognition of Taiwan at this point is fundamentally selfish and immoral. It is a cynical 'Cold War' play that does not help the Taiwanese.

This might not apply specifically to Taiwan, but I think we must be prepared for a new kind of Cold War play regardless if we want it or not. It will be better for all "free countries" if we are prepared (Europe and USA).

[Godstud]

So are you guys pushing for Taiwan's independence of the same mind on Palestine, or does that not count?

Somehow I think that you guys have selective support for countries that want their independence. Why isn't USA supporting Palestinian independence?