[Pants-of-dog]

Scientific fact: You cannot change your sex. That's a fact, supported by science.

How are you defining sex?

Gonadal? Interior genitalia? Chromosomal? Hormonal? Secondary sexual characteristics? A combination of two or more of these five?

Biology uses all five for humans.

A man will never be able to have a womb and and have natural childbirth. A women will never be able to naturally produce sperm and fertilize eggs. These are scientific facts.

All you seem to be saying is that humans have not evolved sequential hermaphroditism, as other animals have done.

This does not mean sex is immutable.

So... It only goes to reason, that all this so-called science(about preventing suicide), isn't valid in the face of these immutable facts. It's more about affirming delusion. How is that a good thing?

So, because you have incorrectly used the wrong definition for human biological sex, and because humans have not evolved sequential hermaphroditism, we can safely say that the many studies showing drops in suicide rates can be dismissed?

That is the most illogical statement I have heard in a while.

We have no information on what happens to people who have had these changes, after 20 years.

Are you claiming that the Swedish study you previously mentioned is not an example of a long term study, as you claimed?

Please pick one. Either we have no data, as you claim here, or the Swedish study shows long term problems, as you claimed previously. You cannot claim both.

HARD SCIENCE:
Humans cannot change sex, which was determined at fertilization (genotype) and during embryonic development (phenotype). People may change many features about their lives, such as their interests, hobbies, diet, friends or careers.

However, some facts are unalterable. A person’s genetic inheritance, their biological sex, is an immutable characteristic.
https://can-sg.org/frequently-asked-que ... %20careers.

Here you seem to be defining sex solely through chromosomes.

[Godstud]

Gonadal? Interior genitalia? Chromosomal? Hormonal? Secondary sexual characteristics? A combination of two or more of these five?

Yes. All. You're just being difficult.

All you seem to be saying is that humans have not evolved sequential hermaphroditism, as other animals have done.

It is. Exceptions don't make the rule. You are ignoring science because it doesn't line up with your ideology. Making up a fantasy what we haven't evolved into hermaphodites is not an argument. It's the epitome of stupid. It's also irrelevant.

So, because you have incorrectly used the wrong definition for human biological sex, and because humans have not evolved sequential hermaphroditism, we can safely say that the many studies showing drops in suicide rates can be dismissed?

@skinster's comparison to anorexics is perfectly comparable. You just don't like it, because it doesn't align with your ideology.

That is the most illogical statement I have heard in a while.

No. What you just said was. You'd blind to your own faults. Brainwashed by the Woke cult.

[Pants-of-dog]

Yes. All. You're just being difficult.

Are you then arguing that people never have hormonal changes? Lol.

It is. Exceptions don't make the rule. You are ignoring science because it doesn't line up with your ideology. Making up a fantasy what we haven't evolved into hermaphodites is not an argument. It's the epitome of stupid. It's also irrelevant.

Then why did you come up with an “argument” where you claim that humans do not naturally change sex?

@skinster's comparison to anorexics is perfectly comparable. You just don't like it, because it doesn't align with your ideology.

It is only comparability if you guys have a study showing that allowing anorexics to starve themselves leads to better mental health outcomes. I keep asking for this evidence and none of you present it.

No. What you just said was. You'd blind to your own faults. Brainwashed by the Woke cult.

You are the one arguing that studies can be dismissed because humans do not change all five sex indicators naturally.

[Godstud]

Are you then arguing that people never have hormonal changes? Lol.

No. I am not. You're being purposefully stupid, now. Hormone levels may change, but you don't suddenly take on the hormones of the opposite sex. Stop lying.

Then why did you come up with an “argument” where you claim that humans do not naturally change sex?

Humans do not change their sex. It is immutable. You're being willfully ignorant, now.

You are the one arguing that studies can be dismissed because humans do not change all five sex indicators naturally.

No. You are arguing for studies carried out by medical professionals who have a stake in the game, and profit from the Woke idiocy. You're a bitch for Big Pharma now. How the tables have turned.

You are for drugging and mutilating children to push your trans-agenda. You're a typical Woke cultist who can't see the immorality of your ideology, because you are too interested in getting validation and virtue signaling to your peers..

[Pants-of-dog]

No. I am not. You're being purposefully stupid, now. Hormone levels may change, but you don't suddenly take on the hormones of the opposite sex. Stop lying.

Yet it is possible. People take on the hormonal profile of the other sex all the time,

Humans do not change their sex. It is immutable. You're being willfully ignorant, now.

Sure they do. They change most of the five indicators through gender affirming care.

No. You are arguing for studies carried out by medical professionals who have a stake in the game, and profit from the Woke idiocy. You're a bitch for Big Pharma now. How the tables have turned.

You are for drugging and mutilating children to push your trans-agenda. You're a typical Woke cultist who can't see the immorality of your ideology, because you are too interested in getting validation and virtue signaling to your peers..

You have a habit of being rude and making personal attacks instead of arguments. I will point out the fact that all of this is simply you being disrespectful. But since this is merely tedious and irrelevant, I will just ignore these parts of your posts from now on. Of course, if the entirety of your post is like this, I will simply ignore the post.

[Godstud]

People take on the hormonal profile of the other sex all the time,

No they don't stop lying to yourself. You're making up a fantasy to push a abnormal, demented ideology.

Sure they do. They change most of the five indicators through gender affirming care.

No, They don't, and that's delusional to think you can. Gender-affirming care... Do you read the shit you write?

You have a habit of being rude and making personal attacks instead of arguments.

You are the one defending the drugging and mutilation of children to push your Woke ideology. Maybe you should consider that what you are doing is wrong and indefensible. Me being rude is caused by ,y personal disgust of your Cultish behavior.

I will point out the fact that all of this is simply you being disrespectful.

I do not respect people who support and promote child abuse, as you do. Sorry, if that hurts your feelings.

But since this is merely tedious and irrelevant, I will just ignore these parts of your posts from now on. Of course, if the entirety of your post is like this, I will simply ignore the post.

That's rich coming from you. Everything you write is tedious and irrelevant. Stop pushing your ideology of child abuse on others. You're sick.


Bravo to the Truth: What’s Wrong with Transgender Ideology
The problem with basing a diagnosis and irreversible treatment on people’s feelings, no matter how deeply felt, is that feelings can change.

As simple as it is to become a “real” transgender person, it’s even easier to turn into a fake one. “Fake” transgender people like me start out as real, but when they eventually see through the delusion of gender change and stop living the transgender life, transgender activists give them the disparaging label of “fake.”

If someone comes to the difficult and honest conclusion that transitioning didn’t result in a change of sex, then he or she is perceived as a threat to the transgender movement and must be discredited. Name-calling and bullying ensues. To be considered real, the transgender person must continue in the delusion that his or her gender changed. The problem with basing a diagnosis and irreversible treatment on people’s feelings, no matter how sincerely held, is that feelings can change.

Personally, I cannot think of anything more offensive than men diminishing the wonder and uniqueness of biological women by suggesting women are nothing more than men who have been pumped with hormones and may or may not have undergone cosmetic surgery.
https://www.thepublicdiscourse.com/2017/04/19080/

[wat0n]

How are you defining sex?

Gonadal? Interior genitalia? Chromosomal? Hormonal? Secondary sexual characteristics? A combination of two or more of these five?

Biology uses all five for humans.

No? Doctors will visually inspect for the gonadal and other visible characteristics of sex when determining it at birth, but at least in principle the only definition that counts is the chromosomal one. That's why when these don't match as expected it is seen as a "condition".

If it was cheap to genetically test for sex as standard procedure (karyotype testing unfortunately costs $100+ in the US) that would be the normal way to do it. But it is not regarded as cost effective to do so for the sole purpose of catching "conditions" that manifest in well under 1% of all humans.

The science is also not all too clear about how to treat gender dysphoria.

Just as I posted one comment suggesting hormone and other treatment may not be such a big deal and help patients (citing e.g. papers like this one and this other one), there are also papers reporting the opposite like this one cited in one of the old threads @AFAIK linked in his post.

Ideally, a few large-scale experiments where (possibly) thousands of patients with gender dysphoria participate would answer this question but as you may imagine this is not feasible.

[AFAIK]

It is only comparability if you guys have a study showing that allowing anorexics to starve themselves leads to better mental health outcomes. I keep asking for this evidence and none of you present it.

I bet you could find such studies for BIID sufferers. I remember from previous discussions that some of them deliberately self harm to the point of requiring amputation and report feeling much happier afterwards. This anecdote is good enough for me but feel free to look for something more substantial if you're interested.

[Pants-of-dog]

No they don't

Yes, people change their hormones by using gender affirming care.

No, They don't,

Yes, people change their hormones, exterior gonads, secondary sexual characteristics, and other sexual indicators through gender affirming care.

----------

The fact that doctors and others do not do comprehensive testing of all people in order to determine sex does not change the number and diversity of sex indicators.

In fact, these comprehensive tests are mainly used to exclude women from high level athletics.

Please note that the Swedish study (that many feel is so damning of gender affirming care) shows that trans folk have higher suicide rates than the general population even after gender affirming surgery.

Note that this does not contradict the claim that such care leads to improved outcomes. It is possible for outcomes to be better but still not as good as the general population.

The relevant conclusion from the Swedish study is that trans folk need mental health care as well as gender affirming care, which no one disputes.

[wat0n]

The fact that doctors and others do not do comprehensive testing of all people in order to determine sex does not change the number and diversity of sex indicators.

In fact, these comprehensive tests are mainly used to exclude women from high level athletics.

Or, those sex indicators are just that - indicators. They don't define sex just as other genotypes are not defined by their phenotypes.

Please note that the Swedish study (that many feel is so damning of gender affirming care) shows that trans folk have higher suicide rates than the general population even after gender affirming surgery.

Note that this does not contradict the claim that such care leads to improved outcomes. It is possible for outcomes to be better but still not as good as the general population.

The relevant conclusion from the Swedish study is that trans folk need mental health care as well as gender affirming care, which no one disputes.

Something similar could be said about other papers which find gender-affirming care is the best way to treat gender dysphoria. They compare results with that of the general population and not e.g. with controls that only receive psychological or even psychiatric treatment. And we also ought to take into account that treatment assignment isn't actually random.

That's why I don't think we know much - there are contradictory results in the literature and it is likely unfeasible to make a proper large-scale randomized clinical trial.

[Pants-of-dog]

If someone wants to use a different definition of swx than that used by biology, it would be a good idea to support that different use with some sort of logic or evidence.

And so far, there does not seem to be any contradiction in the literature.

[wat0n]

If someone wants to use a different definition of swx than that used by biology, it would be a good idea to support that different use with some sort of logic or evidence.

And so far, there does not seem to be any contradiction in the literature.

It is you who is using a definition of sex different that the one in use by biology, e.g. consider the definition of biological sex by the Institute of Medicine:

BOX 1–1Definitions

Sex: The classification of living things, generally as male or female according to their reproductive organs and functions assigned by chromosomal complement.

Gender: A person's self-representation as male or female, or how that person is responded to by social institutions based on the individual's gender presentation. Gender is rooted in biology and shaped by environment and experience.

Biology: The study of life and living organisms (Dorland's Illustrated Medical Dictionary, 1994; Stedman's Medical Dictionary, 1995), including the genetic, molecular, biochemical, hormonal, cellular, physiological, behavioral, and psychosocial aspects of life.

The controlling aspect is whatever is assigned by chromosomal complement (i.e. the genotype) and not how those genes are being expressed (i.e. the phenotype). That's why when both are in evident conflict, terms like "condition", "anomaly", "deficiency", "syndrome" or "disorder" are used to refer to that situation.

[Pants-of-dog]

Appeal to definition fallacy.

https://effectiviology.com/appeal-to-definition/

Such a fallacy does not provide a good reason to discard biological findings and instead use an arbitrarily chosen definition.

[wat0n]

Appeal to definition fallacy.

https://effectiviology.com/appeal-to-definition/

Such a fallacy does not provide a good reason to discard biological findings and instead use an arbitrarily chosen definition.

The Institute of Medicine (AKA National Academy of Medicine) is a scientific body, not Merriam-Webster. Its definition of "sex" therefore reflects how it is used in the literature, at least by the time the book was written and was used to advocate for considering sex as a biological factor for medical studies.

Where does your definition come from?

[Pants-of-dog]

No, this is a stupid semantics debate.

If you are willfully ignoring how biological sex is determined and indicated by genetics, hormones, secondary characteristics, and other indicators in order to focus on some random indicator, then we can stop pretending this is a scientific discussion.

Feel free to use whatever indicators you want for sex. Please understand that I am not going to accept it as anything except t a social construct by conservatives that is based on a deliberate misunderstanding of science.

But if you insist:

DeFINItION
Sex is a multidimensional construct based on a cluster of anatomical and physiological traits that include external genitalia, secondary sex characteristics, gonads, chromosomes, and hormones. People with intersex traits, also known as people with differences in sex development (DSD), are people who are born with,
or naturally develop over time, sex traits that do not correspond to a single sex. An estimated 1.7 percent of people have an intersex trait. Biologically, intersex variations are highly heterogeneous, can involve any sex trait, and may not be apparent from an external examination.
…..

From the National Academy of Medicine.

https://nap.nationalacademies.org/resou ... Status.pdf

[Godstud]

Yes, people change their hormones by using gender affirming care.

Yes, people change their hormones, exterior gonads, secondary sexual characteristics, and other sexual indicators through gender affirming care.

Not naturally. That's my point.

You talk about evolution and then dare to mention surgeries and hormonal manipulations as being a part of it? Shut the front door! You are arguing in bad faith.

[Pants-of-dog]

Not naturally. That's my point.

You talk about evolution and then dare to mention surgeries and hormonal manipulations as being a part of it? Shut the front door! You are arguing in bad faith.

Again, your claim is that humans have not evolved to be sequentially hermaphroditic.

Or if you prefer: humans do not change sex naturally, as you put it.

But who cares? Do you brush your teeth? If so, you are doing something unnatural that modifies your body away from the very natural tooth decay and cavities and loss of teeth that would occur in nature.

Should we ban toothpaste and toothbrushes?

https://yourlogicalfallacyis.com/appeal-to-nature

[Godstud]

Again, your claim is that humans have not evolved to be sequentially hermaphroditic.

They have not. This is supported by facts and science. You don't like facts or science when they don't agree with what your cult believes.

But who cares? Do you brush your teeth? If so, you are doing something unnatural that modifies your body away from the very natural tooth decay and cavities and loss of teeth that would occur in nature.

Now you are just being stupid.

Brushing your teeth(using tools) is a natural behavior for humans. Your logical fallacy claim does not apply.

[Pants-of-dog]

If using tools to modify your body is natural, then using tools to modify a body’s sexuality is also natural.

But again, it is irrelevant if this is “natural”.

[Godstud]

If using tools to modify your body is natural, then using tools to modify a body’s sexuality is also natural.

False equivalencies and you know this. Even with all the changes you can do with modern science, you cannot change your sex/gender. They are linked.

There are two genders and two sexes. If you don't fall into one of these then you have Gender Dysphoria, or some other mental illness causing you confusion. 99.97% of all people are either male or female. The exceptions do not change the rule.