[Godstud]

To make a similar analogy, if your daughter has small breasts you should get her breast implants when she is 14 to help her self esteem, if she feels like it. It doesn't matter if later she would have developed them anyhow. It's all about what they feel like, regardless of how stupid or damaging it might be. Let the kids choose, right?

Parents are supposed to protect the children from doing stupid things to their bodies, like not getting tattoos when they are young, and not encourage them to make life-altering decisions which they could regret later, or which could result in impotence or infertility, or other damaging side effects of hormone blockers/surgical alterations.

But hey, it's not about the morality, but the science, and the science is INCOMPLETE. It's also about an ideology that cares more about feelings than facts, and thinks that a woman is anyone who THINKS they are one. Gender Dysphoria is a real thing, and it does not need to be fixed with surgery/drugs.

[skinster]

the literature is far, far less clear on the costs and benefits of hormones in minors.

The costs - like sterilisation, osteoporosis in young people and being medicated for the rest of their lives - are being discovered, gradually, because this way of medicating minors is still in its experimental stage. Some of the costs are mentioned here by a trans-identifying female:


And here are the costs of those who go the surgical route. Granted, the vast majority of males who "transition" keep their dicks because they like getting off to the idea they are what they think being a woman is. Below are both males and females who talk about the endless complications post surgeries.

my understanding was that most trans minors eventually stop identifying with the opposite gender

The opposite came from the investigations at Tavistock, where nearly every child placed on puberty blockers went onto taking cross-sex hormones.

but I've also heard of some more recent research suggesting minors who do undergo a procedure don't regret the decision as adults.

What is this research?

[Pants-of-dog]

….. “peer contagion”—kids pressuring each other into thinking they’re all trans —

This seems to be a myth.

————————

Do you support the amputation of healthy limbs of those suffering from BIID? The last time it was discussed someone shared evidence of sufferers deliberately self harming in order to leave doctors no choice but to amputate.

Do you support providing medical assistance to help anorexics lose weight? Since doing so under medical supervision is safer than them doing it by themselves?

I have not thought about these issues since they are not part of the thread topic.

———————-

……
The opposite came from the investigations at Tavistock, where nearly every child placed on puberty blockers went onto taking cross-sex hormones.
…….

This seems incorrect.

There is no mention of this in the summaries of the Cass review, nor have I read it in the part of the Cass review I have already read.

[skinster]

I doubt you've read it, PoD, you're just here to push this harmful ideology that hurts children and destroys their lives. There are reasons why Norway, Sweden and Finland have now banned it for minors. Reconsider what you're pushing. It will be up there with lobotomies in a few year as dangerous healthcare practices, if it isn't already.

Supporting sterilising, mutilating and telling children they're in the "wrong body" is psychotic shit and not the "be kind" position you've been brainwashed into believing. Puberty is a part of our nature that should not be fucked with unless there are real medical needs that go beyond "feelings".

In short, transgender ideology is psychotic and anyone promoting it is a psycho.

[Pants-of-dog]

@skinster

Let us assume your claim is true. How is that an argument for banning gender affirming care?

Also, the claim about Norway seems incorrect.

[wat0n]

@skinster I think PoD has made reference to that literature. I also found some evidence suggesting teens are unlikely to go back into identifying with their biological sex and that those who take the treatment at that stage generally stop due to reasons beyond their control and not as a result of their own choice:

https://doi.org/10.1542/peds.2022-057693

OTOH as you said we don't know what other effects the hormone treatment may have on them, and even more so if the rest of society (aka the taxpayer) would have to foot the bill. Since we don't know, I'm not in a position to have a clear opinion in the matter at least as far as the science goes.

Beyond the science, as a general rule, I don't really care about whatever they do to their bodies as long as it doesn't affect third parties, like for example having third parties fund potentially expensive medical treatments to deal with the consequences of their decisions. I don't mind paying taxes on principle to fund the treatment any type of physical or psychological condition for those who can't afford to pay for it on their own but I don't want to fund medical interventions that may end up harming patients and requiring further medical treatment to deal with the damage. Resources are not infinite, I'd very much prefer to prioritize treatments that don't do that unless there is really no other choice. Since I don't think we know that much about gender dysphoria in general, and the full scope of the consequences of all the different ways to treat it, I don't feel like I can have a properly informed opinion on the matter.

[AFAIK]

How about engaging in a good faith discussion for once PoD? Instead of trying to dodge debate by being a tedious and inane bore. These concepts have already been raised in threads that you yourself contributed to in;

2021- viewtopic.php?p=15161555#p15161555
2015- viewtopic.php?p=14505902#p14505902
2010- viewtopic.php?p=13564540#p13564540

[Pants-of-dog]

@AFAIK

If you have a good faith argument, I am more than happy to address it.

Your rudeness does not suffice.

[AFAIK]

You are the one who wants to pursue irreversible medical intervention in children. It's your responsibility to provide justification for such a drastic measure.

[Pants-of-dog]

You are the one who wants to pursue irreversible medical intervention in children. It's your responsibility to provide justification for such a drastic measure.

What would you consider a justification?

Do you find the significant reduction in suicide by trans kids to be lacking as a justification?

[AFAIK]

Do you support similar medical interventions for sufferers of BIID and anorexia?

[Pants-of-dog]

Do you support similar medical interventions for sufferers of BIID and anorexia?

If there are studies showing that these interventions significantly reduce suicide among these groups, then there would be a viable scientific basis for allowing such interventions.

As far as I know, no such studies exist.

Please note this entire tangent is a whataboutism. I will ignore it soon.

[AFAIK]

This whole thread was initiated by someone who wanted to compare two unrelated medical interventions to one another. Bringing up additional interventions that have similar characteristics is not a whataboutism no matter how convenient it would be to you to pretend otherwise.

[Pants-of-dog]

@AFAIK

The fact that others previously made bad comparisons does not make new bad comparisons more logical.

Anyway, the question has been answered.

[skinster]

You are the one who wants to pursue irreversible medical intervention in children. It's your responsibility to provide justification for such a drastic measure.

Indeed.

And the "it prevents suicide" bullshit is just emotional blackmail that they tell the families of confused kids, to make it easier for them to go through the process of being sterilised and mutilated. Many detransitioners have shared this aspect of emotional blackmail. So-called health-care-providers also scare parents into going along with crap like "Would you prefer a trans kid or a dead son/daughter". Many parents of delusional kids testify to this.

Still, suicide rates are not uncommon with those who suffer mental health issues like dysphoria. They occurred in high numbers with those suffering anorexia too. But we didn't let the many children suffering anorexia continue to starve themselves.

Is there any long term data confirming "transitioning" cures suicidal ideation in these mentally unhealthy kids?

What those attempting to help these confused kids should be doing is offering therapy for some time before drugs and surgery, with the aim of teaching them to gain comfort in who they are, not LYING to them and feeding their silly delusions of being born in the wrong body, since there's no such thing. Why aren't the so-called health-care providers offering that? Is it because big pharma doesn't make MANY millions from talk therapy when it has experimental drugs to push on children?

It is so sick what grown-ups within this cult are doing to kids.

[Pants-of-dog]

Indeed.

And the "it prevents suicide" bullshit is just emotional blackmail that they tell the families of confused kids, to make it easier for them to go through the process of being sterilised and mutilated. Many detransitioners have shared this aspect of emotional blackmail. So-called health-care-providers also scare parents into going along with crap like "Would you prefer a trans kid or a dead son/daughter". Many parents of delusional kids testify to this.
[

Again, the science is clear.

If you think that medical practitioners pointing out facts is blackmail, thwn that is your subjective opinion, and there is no logical reason to base policy on the subjective opinion of people on the internet.

Still, suicide rates are not uncommon with those who suffer mental health issues like dysphoria. They occurred in high numbers with those suffering anorexia too. But we didn't let the many children suffering anorexia continue to starve themselves.

Whataboutism. Ignored.

Is there any long term data confirming "transitioning" cures suicidal ideation in these mentally unhealthy kids?

Is there an argument here?

If so, please state it.

What those attempting to help these confused kids should be doing is offering therapy for some time before drugs and surgery, with the aim of teaching them to gain comfort in who they are, not LYING to them and feeding their silly delusions of being born in the wrong body, since there's no such thing. Why aren't the so-called health-care providers offering that? Is it because big pharma doesn't make MANY millions from talk therapy when it has experimental drugs to push on children?

This is a false dichotomy.

You seem to be arguing that we can either provide therapy or gender affirming care, but not both.

This is not the case. Both can be provided. In fact, it is probably not possible to access gender affirming care without going through therapy.

It is so sick what grown-ups within this cult are doing to kids.

Should we follow the recommendations of this Cass person?

[AFAIK]

Fun Fact but we used to encourage adolescent girls to take medicine that would suppress growth hormones so they wouldn't grow too tall. This has fallen out of fashion nowadays and the medicine is even banned outright in some countries even when it could improve the quality of life of a disabled child.

At 5:45 there's a quick summary of the historic uses of estrogen as a growth suppressor.

[skinster]

Again, the science is clear.

No it isn't.

And you should stop talking about science when you are here promoting gender souls, and the sterilisation and mutilation of children.

If you think that medical practitioners pointing out facts is blackmail, thwn that is your subjective opinion, and there is no logical reason to base policy on the subjective opinion of people on the internet.

No, it's not a subjective opinion, but something that is stated over and over again by detransitioners or the parents of those who wish to be the opposite of what they are (something they can never be).

Whataboutism. Ignored.

Yes, it's noticeable you keep ignoring the facts that contradict the nonsense you're spouting here. Anorexics had high suicide rates too, but we didn't tell them it's okay to continue starving themselves. That's the difference when it comes to gender ideology, where the affirmative model that immediately accepts a confused child's delusions is what "healthcare" is currently providing. Because it makes big money for big pharma. Now you lot who used to oppose big pharma are all about it..

Is there an argument here?

If so, please state it.

Haha at your dodges. No, it was a question: is there any long term data confirming "transitioning" cures suicidal ideation in these mentally unhealthy kids? You're making the claim medicating and mutilating kids cures suicide, so prove it.

You seem to be arguing that we can either provide therapy or gender affirming care, but not both.

No, I'm arguing that you offer therapy to kids who have dysphoria. "gender affirming care" is bollocks because you are either male or female and these positions are immutable. And we shouldn't lie to children that they are open to change when the science, something you keep yammering on about, states it's absolutely not.

it is probably not possible to access gender affirming care without going through therapy.

The scandal within the Tavistock clinic showed us otherwise. Keira Bell, the first amongst 3 to take them to court shared with us she was put on puberty blockers after her second meeting with a so-called healthcare provider. And she also was angry that they never bothered to look into her family trauma that caused her to want to transition.

Should we follow the recommendations of this Cass person?

We should stop experimenting on kids with medications that make them ill and sterilise them and we should stop mutilating them too, and before that we should stop LYING to them about the cult-like gender souls that have become popular in the psychotic West.

[Pants-of-dog]

No it isn't.

Then provide an example of a science based argument for banning gender affirming care.

No, it's not a subjective opinion, but something that is stated over and over again by detransitioners or the parents of those who wish to be the opposite of what they are (something they can never be).

It is your subjective opinion of their (i.e. the parents') subjective opinion.

Yes, it's noticeable you keep ignoring the facts that contradict the nonsense you're spouting here. Anorexics had high suicide rates too, but we didn't tell them it's okay to continue starving themselves. That's the difference when it comes to gender ideology, where the affirmative model that immediately accepts a confused child's delusions is what "healthcare" is currently providing. Because it makes big money for big pharma. Now you lot who used to oppose big pharma are all about it..

Provide a study showing that allowing anorexics to starve themselves led to improved mental health outcomes.

Note that studies showing how gender affirming care has led to better mental health outcomes has already been provided.

Haha at your dodges. No, it was a question: is there any long term data confirming "transitioning" cures suicidal ideation in these mentally unhealthy kids? You're making the claim medicating and mutilating kids cures suicide, so prove it.

Then tell me what the longest term study was of the sixteen already cited and explain why that length of time was inadequate.

Yes, this us a test to see if you are reading the evidence.

No, I'm arguing that you offer therapy to kids who have dysphoria. "gender affirming care" is bollocks because you are either male or female and these positions are immutable. And we shouldn't lie to children that they are open to change when the science, something you keep yammering on about, states it's absolutely not.

Since therapy is already being offered, this criticism can be dismissed.

The scandal within the Tavistock clinic showed us otherwise. Keira Bell, the first amongst 3 to take them to court shared with us she was put on puberty blockers after her second meeting with a so-called healthcare provider. And she also was angry that they never bothered to look into her family trauma that caused her to want to transition.

Is that the scandal?

A patient did not receive a holistic and comprehensive treatment nor was given enough time and information to weigh decisions correctly.

This is not a good thing, I agree.

This was due to the fact that the Tavistock clinic was overwhelmed by a dramatic increase in patients and a lack of adequate resources and funding to deal with each person properly.

We should stop experimenting on kids with medications that make them ill and sterilise them and we should stop mutilating them too, and before that we should stop LYING to them about the cult-like gender souls that have become popular in the psychotic West.

There seems to be no argument in this bit.

[Godstud]

The arguments are clear, @Pants-of-dog, but you are so deep into your Woke cult that you refuse to see them or outright ignore them.

Scientific fact: You cannot change your sex. That's a fact, supported by science. A man will never be able to have a womb and and have natural childbirth. A women will never be able to naturally produce sperm and fertilize eggs. These are scientific facts.

So... It only goes to reason, that all this so-called science(about preventing suicide), isn't valid in the face of these immutable facts. It's more about affirming delusion. How is that a good thing? We have no information on what happens to people who have had these changes, after 20 years.

HARD SCIENCE:
Humans cannot change sex, which was determined at fertilization (genotype) and during embryonic development (phenotype). People may change many features about their lives, such as their interests, hobbies, diet, friends or careers.

However, some facts are unalterable. A person’s genetic inheritance, their biological sex, is an immutable characteristic.
https://can-sg.org/frequently-asked-que ... %20careers.