Cuba has proven that capitalism and technology are failures - Page 113 - Politics Forum.org | PoFo

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#15181893
XogGyux wrote:Honestly, I wish the US would stop the stupid blockade thing. It is merely giving the government excuses. Let's say the blockade ends today, you think McDonalds is going to be rushing to open the business down there? Call me skeptic.


They wouldn't, but lifting the embargo (it's not a blockade, the US hasn't deployed its military to stop people from entering or leaving the island at all) right now would likely encourage the government to keep pressing on - it would probably be interpreted as a show of weakness, if not outright support for the current government.

I also think it's unlikely lifting the embargo would change the situation much, if at all. If anything, Obama's gestures towards Cuba were not met with any significant reforms, they only kept moving at snail pace as Venezuela oil stopped flowing (because, yes, Cuba will eventually become a market economy even if the communists remain in power).
#15181895
wat0n wrote:They wouldn't, but lifting the embargo (it's not a blockade, the US hasn't deployed its military to stop people from entering or leaving the island at all) right now would likely encourage the government to keep pressing on - it would probably be interpreted as a show of weakness, if not outright support for the current government.

I merely used the word you used, you were the one saying it is a blockade. As long as we know we are both talking about the economic sanctions then it is OK.
Dude. Cuba is not more than an ant compared to the US. Political backlash perhaps but any sort of real, meaningful sociopolitical consequences? I am skeptical.

I also think it's unlikely lifting the embargo would change the situation much, if at all.

That is precisely my point. It truly has had no effect what so ever on weakening Cuba's leadership grasp on power. Meanwhile it is offering them a scapegoat and the rest of the world a propaganda tool.
As far as I am concerned, this embargo thing is only slowing down the demise of the system.
#15181897
XogGyux wrote:I merely used the word you used, you were the one saying it is a blockade. As long as we know we are both talking about the economic sanctions then it is OK.
Dude. Cuba is not more than an ant compared to the US. Political backlash perhaps but any sort of real, meaningful sociopolitical consequences? I am skeptical.


I didn't use the term "blockade". The Cuban propaganda does.

Lifting the embargo could be interpreted by the government as carte blanche for a much harsher response.

XogGyux wrote:That is precisely my point. It truly has had no effect what so ever on weakening Cuba's leadership grasp on power. Meanwhile it is offering them a scapegoat and the rest of the world a propaganda tool.
As far as I am concerned, this embargo thing is only slowing down the demise of the system.


It seems that even that argument that the government can just blame the US isn't all that correct anymore, given the protests.

I don't think lifting the embargo would significantly improve the lives of ordinary Cubans, even more so since one of the few concessions the government has granted was to actually eliminate the tariffs on imports of food and medicines (odd, one would think they didn't have those if they were so keen on buying abroad). But it would probably be interpreted as a strong signal to keep pressing on by the government.
#15181911
wat0n wrote:I didn't use the term "blockade". The Cuban propaganda does.

Oh I understand. You are falling into an equivocation fallacy. Cubans speak Spanish not english. What they say is "bloqueo economico" which translates to economic block which is what an embargo is.
Embargo: an official ban on trade or other commercial activity with a particular country.


Lifting the embargo could be interpreted by the government as carte blanche for a much harsher response.

Response against the US? Are you fighting? Response against its people? I doubt it, but even so... don't you think that would work towards further de-destabilizing the cuban goverment? Wasen't that the whole point of the embargo anyway?

It seems that even that argument that the government can just blame the US isn't all that correct anymore, given the protests.

Of course they do and they will. Wether this excuse will change the protester's mind its another question entirely. Probably not, they have grown to hear the same tune over and over. But remember when husband and wife are fighting, if you try to interrupt, chances are they will put aside their differences and shout at you. As far as I can tell, the blockade only works to allow the goverment to have all the cards.
Let family seind their loved ones a few hundred bucks or perhaps a toursit spend some time in the hotel or perhaps cocacola sell some products there. That will accentuate the difference between the people that have $$ and those that do not have $$. How did revolutions happen? When people realize that they have been cheated out of oportunity.
It is sad to cheer for some sort of confrontations between cubans brothers and sisters, but it will have to happen before their system changes. Blood was spilled to institute Castro's dictatorship, I suspect blood will be spilled before his legacy can be erased. I hope not, but again, im a cynic guy.

Most importantly... has the embargo been successful at anything? Other than making the US look fucking stupid and impotent, it has not succeeded. There is no point to it.
#15182010
XogGyux wrote:Seems like somebody only wants to hear a certain type of information form/of cuba. Echo chamber.

Yes, the Canadians who re-post content from Miami are acting as brainless echo chambers.

The reality is the protesters are identifying the main culprit, the Cuban goverment.

Are you saying this because you are standing beside Cuban protestors in Cuba right now, or are you also just echoing things that other people have told you?

I only ask this because echos are not worth replying to.
#15182015
QatzelOk wrote:Yes, the Canadians who re-post content from Miami are acting as brainless echo chambers.


Are you saying this because you are standing beside Cuban protestors in Cuba right now, or are you also just echoing things that other people have told you?

I only ask this because echos are not worth replying to.


My opinion about cuba did not change after the protests. I fact I don't really think they are as game-changing as some of the news seem to be reporting, we will see.
I speculate that last year, the cuban goverment went crazy putting our own protests on display as an example of how the US system is bad. I don't know this because I am not living there now, however I know how they operate and I am willing to bet $$ that they did and use it as a propaganda. I think that might have inspired people, they might have had their strategy backfire on them :lol: .
#15182045
XogGyux wrote:My opinion about cuba did not change after the protests.

That wasn't an issue.

You said you *know* what the protests are about.
And you said you *know* that people are calling for capitalism. For a return to mafia-led casinos and colonialism.

And yet, you don't know this at all unless you're in Cuba right now.

Which you aren't. You're just trying to manipulate *dumb Americans on the net* into bombing Cuba and letting you go back to being a Haitian-style slumlord there.

But *dumb Americans on the net* don't all live in hot, muggy swamps with shotguns hanging on the wall - like you're used to. In Florida, the ocean is starting to reclaim land and knock down buildings. And your leadership can only think of driving big cars on top of Cubans - there is no drive to *deal with the problems you have right there in Florida*.

This is so colonial. Never thinking about the real problems of real people in real places. Just trying to hustle your way into exploiting other people who can't defend themselves.
#15182073
QatzelOk wrote:That wasn't an issue.

You said you *know* what the protests are about.


I don't think I have made such a claim. More importantly, the protesters are screaming what the protests are about, it is not such a secret.

And you said you *know* that people are calling for capitalism.

When all you have is a hammer, all your problems look like nails.
You keep trying to spin this as being a socialism vs capitalism shit. The Cuban people have a bigger problem, freedom, or technically lack of it.
For a return to mafia-led casinos and colonialism.

LOL you smoking too much weed.
And yet, you don't know this at all unless you're in Cuba right now.

Oh please, entitled canadian neo-socialist. Shut up.

In Florida, the ocean is starting to reclaim land and knock down buildings. And your leadership can only think of driving big cars on top of Cubans

You think this is a problem exclusive of Florida? Or even Capitalism?
If so, you are pretty naive. Cuba destroyed part of their own ecosystem, they razed trees to open up beaches for tourism despite the warnings of Cuban environmentalists that warned that this would erode their coastlines. Sure enough this happened, and sure enough they had to start pumping sand to replenish the beaches. Except unlike the US who has tons of money to spend on sand for their beaches, cuba is a fucking poor country. Examples are too numerous to count, I won't bother, you will simply ignore it and keep talking nonsense.
#15182091
Peter Bolton mocks the silliness of "allowing ex-Cubans to make foreign policy via Cuba" by comparing it to if Argentina letting its ex-Nazi population determine Argentina's foreign policy towards West and East Germany.

Imagine how ticked off they were about losing their great jobs in the Nazi government.

Peter Bolton wrote:...basing policy on how to best court the votes of an immigrant community only happens when that community’s priorities happen to align with US foreign policy goals.

To further illustrate the absurdity, image this dynamic happening in any other country in any other point in history.

Imagine, for instance, if Argentinian political parties in the 1950s and ‘60s had suggested imposing sanctions on either of the states in Germany that emerged in the post-war era in order to court the substantial German-Argentine exile community of Nazi fugitives.

This might on the surface seem like an extreme, unfair, and perhaps even ridiculous comparison. But consider that some of the major leaders of the Cuban-American exile community are in some cases from the very families that were politically close to the Batista government, which, in fact, had many characteristics of fascism. For one thing, it was a dictatorship that came to power via a military coup. It also operated secretive death squads that murdered and tortured political opponents and took bribes from the mafia in exchange for allowing it to monopolize large parts of Cuba’s economy. So, the analogy is actually a perfectly fair one.


Maybe if Argentina had sanctionned the non-Nazi Germanies hard enough, this would have brought the Nazi government back, and the ex-pats would have gotten their great jobs back.

...While Nazi fugitives largely minded their own business in Argentina, however, the leaders of the Cuban-American community have openly aligned themselves with figures who have engaged in violent destabilization against Cuba.
...
Cubans living in the United States are not remotely representative of the Cuban people as whole...
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