[wat0n]

Like I'm going to entertain this nerd on anything re: Cuba, who spends his time shilling for power; defending police brutality, white supremacy and Zionism.

Sounds like you have no arguments to justify shilling for the power of the guys you prefer, defending police brutality committed by the regimes you prefer (by the way, where did I defend police brutality? Quote me on it), defending racism when coming from the regimes you like (by the way, where did I defend White Supremacy? Quote me on it too) and communist dictatorships

[skinster]

I love Cuba.

[QatzelOk]

:lol:

I love Cuba.

wat0n doesn't. He hates Cuba because it represents equality of human experience.

wat0n would like to use media to encourage people to make equivalencies between the everyday killing of black men by USA police where black men are 25% likely to spend part of their lives in prison with Ghislaine Maxwell and Jeffrey Epstein. Only unlike Ghislaine and Jeffrey who are "special," normal black prisoners are NOT rescued by their mafias and made to look like a fake suicide.

Also, the killing of one black man in Cuba - which doesn't have a very high prison rate like the USA - has been provided by "the usual suspects" without any evidence of wrong-doing. Historically, Cubans have fought to the death to DEFEND black Africans from the tentacles of the people who wat0n defends with his every regurgitated word in places like Angola, and have provided medical personnel to some of the most marginalized (by the people who wat0n supports) people on earth.

The USA-Israel-Western Europe, on the other hand, has no qualms about destroying black, African, Arab, and Muslim societies, killing thousands in the process, and destroying entire societies in order to steal resources for our already overstuffed economies.

This is where your "news article" is situtated. You can't just make all background information dissappear and hope that everyone has the same prejudices as yourself, wat0n. Ignorance and lying can only get you so far up the ladder, and only if you're empowered by a significant amount of generalized ignorance.

Smearing other countries and hoping that generalized ignorance covers up your crappy methodology and ideological stagnation.... is bad form.

[skinster]

And what's wat0n's favourite apartheid state doing, how come they haven't got a cure yet? Ain't they always bragging about shit like that?


People like wat0n are jealous of solidarity amongst the oppressed, how pathetic.

[wat0n]

wat0n doesn't. He hates Cuba because it represents equality of human experience.

wat0n would like to use media to encourage people to make equivalencies between the everyday killing of black men by USA police where black men are 25% likely to spend part of their lives in prison with Ghislaine Maxwell and Jeffrey Epstein. Only unlike Ghislaine and Jeffrey who are "special," normal black prisoners are NOT rescued by their mafias and made to look like a fake suicide.

Also, the killing of one black man in Cuba - which doesn't have a very high prison rate like the USA - has been provided by "the usual suspects" without any evidence of wrong-doing. Historically, Cubans have fought to the death to DEFEND black Africans from the tentacles of the people who wat0n defends with his every regurgitated word in places like Angola, and have provided medical personnel to some of the most marginalized (by the people who wat0n supports) people on earth.

The USA-Israel-Western Europe, on the other hand, has no qualms about destroying black, African, Arab, and Muslim societies, killing thousands in the process, and destroying entire societies in order to steal resources for our already overstuffed economies.

This is where your "news article" is situtated. You can't just make all background information dissappear and hope that everyone has the same prejudices as yourself, wat0n. Ignorance and lying can only get you so far up the ladder, and only if you're empowered by a significant amount of generalized ignorance.

Smearing other countries and hoping that generalized ignorance covers up your crappy methodology and ideological stagnation.... is bad form.

Do you have any other farcical "background" information to add here, Qatz? Accusations of systemic racism against the Cuban government are not new, in fact they are not new at all. Do you want us to discuss the actual background behind this incident as opposed to the one in your fantasy world?

Believing in a nonexistent fantasy world, and the inability to come to terms with reality, is also why people like @skinster can't help to make fake stuff up to personally attack others when she cannot justify her Twitter nonsense and the double standards involved in these incidents depending on whether they like the government in place where these incidents take place. If it happens in America, it's of course systemic racism, but if the same thing happens in Cuba, it's of course not racist at all - even if both countries have had similar histories of legally sanctioned racism, even if both countries have laws forbidding racial discrimination, even if in both countries Black people are more likely to be arrested by the police and incarcerated than Whites and even if in both countries Blacks are socioeconomically worse off than Whites on average. All of these facts are used as evidence of systemic racism when it happens in the US, but are somehow ignored when it comes to Cuba.

And how twisted do you need to be to claim that Cuban support for Soviet policy in Africa was a disinterested policy to help Black people? I guess that's why they charged the MPLA for their assistance, and even made a profit at that. I guess military interventions in foreign countries are only carried out for wholly disinterested motivations by socialist regimes, only capitalist countries would ever have any self-serving motivations for engaging in the same

[skinster]

Guy who supports racism (Zionism) is pretending to care about racism.

[QatzelOk]

Guy who supports racism (Zionism) is pretending to care about racism.

His entire last post is built on a house of cards of poor methodology.

A wikipedia article called "Racism in Cuba" is supposed to provide all the proof necessary to show that this shooting of a single person... demostrates that Cubans are following American trends and killing of their own dark-skinned poors.

Yeah, and what about... huge SUVs lined up next to the drive-thru at McDonalds...
Will you find that in Cuba as well?
Where is your photo of a single SUV parked next to a Cuban window that "proves" your point about your own race being perfect and simply better than other races at the standard atrocities that all races are committing for power and money, wat0n?

Is there a wiki article called "wat0n makes good points and knows how to back them up with proof" that we can refer to? Perhaps you could write one yourself and link all of your posts to it.

[skinster]

He's been arguing with PoD in the George Floyd thread defending police brutality for over 100 pages, and it's been going on that long because of the way he debates, which is change the subject constantly or argue against things nobody claims, and now he wants us to think he cares about police brutality against Black people. What a joker!

[QatzelOk]

He's been arguing with PoD in the George Floyd thread defending police brutality for over 100 pages, and it's been going on that long because of the way he debates, which is change the subject constantly or argue against things nobody claims, and now he wants us to think he cares about police brutality against Black people. What a joker!

As a joker, he reminds me of Roseanne Roseannadanna: an SNL meme from the past:

Of coure, in restrospect, this skit gets its "humor" by mocking New Yorkers who are marginalized and don't have access to the information or opportunities that could improve their lives. It's "funny" because when it was made, it was politically acceptable to laugh at women from ethnic minorities.

The Cuban system is clear on where it stands regarding racism, and this kind of mass-market, corporate-sanctionned racist humor isn't very popular there because the government came down hard against racism in... 1959.

From Fidel's 2001 anti-racism speech at the UN:

After the purely formal slave emancipation, African-Americans were subjected during one hundred more years to the harshest racial discrimination, and many of its features and consequences still persist after almost four more decades of heroic struggles and the achievements of the 1960’s, for which Martin Luther King, Jr., Malcolm X and other outstanding fighters gave their lives. Based on a purely racist rationale, the longest and most severe legal sentences are passed against African-Americans who in the wealthy American society are bound to live in dare poverty and with the lowest living standards.

Likewise, what is left of the Native-American peoples, which were the first to inhabit a large portion of the current territory of the United States of America, remain under even worse conditions of discrimination and neglect. ...

https://www.un.org/WCAR/statements/0109cubaE.htm

[wat0n]

His entire last post is built on a house of cards of poor methodology.

A wikipedia article called "Racism in Cuba" is supposed to provide all the proof necessary to show that this shooting of a single person... demostrates that Cubans are following American trends and killing of their own dark-skinned poors.

As you are surely aware, Wikipedia is a great source to summarize information about a topic. But hey, if you don't like it you can read others.

An interesting example can be found in tourism:

ABSTRACT

As the largest island in the Caribbean, Cuba boasts beautiful scenery, as
well as a rich and diverse culture. Yet, throughout Cuban history, the beauty of
this famous socialist nation has been marred by social inequalities, primarily
affecting class, gender, and race. In the Cuban tourism sector in particular, the
three aforementioned components have been prevalent since the island’s
inception of tourism in the early 20th Century. With the recent political changes
marked by the attempt to restore relations with the United States, this thesis will
critically analyze the theories of Black Marxism, Intersectionality, and World
Systems Analysis (WSA), to explain how racism has affected the overall quality
of life for Afro-Cubans. In addition, the theories applied to Cuban tourism also
cause the tourist sector to be racialized in the 21st Century. Furthermore, this
thesis will analyze how Cuban tourism is maintained from a Socialist perspective,
as well demonstrate that the tourism advertisements in the 21st Century are
greatly racialized, depicting Afro-Cubans in the mode of servitude to the tourist.
In addition, it will reveal that gender also plays a significant role in the way AfroCubans are perceived by society. This thesis will conclude with how the WSA
theory can be hypothetically applied to the recent changes in U.S. policy,
promoting greater interaction with Cuba and American tourism, after more than
five decades of travel ban.

...

With respect to employee characteristics favored by the tourism sector,
Afro-Cubans are certainly underrepresented. Afro-Cuban males and females are
non-existent in positions such as taxi drivers, hotel front desk employees and
managers. Jobs in the formal tourism sector that require more visibility and more
direct contact with guests, there are less Afro-Cubans representing such job
positions. According to Cabezas,
Competition is not only fierce for tourism employment, it is limited to
those who have the proper social characteristics (gender, race,
age, good looks and ‘personality’ serve as the matrix for labor
organization), in additional to training, bribes and networks.90

Even though the revolution has “helped” Afro-Cubans in many ways, there
is still a disparity in the service sector. Consequently, in Cuba, not everyone is
welcome in the tourism industry. Physical attributes are heavily scrutinized and
analyzed in order to provide a good “look” that would appeal to the tourists. As a
result, Afro-Cubans are not readily employed in prominent service jobs. In
addition, in prestigious hotels, Afro-Cubans are restricted to menial and low paid
jobs, such as kitchen staff or cleaners. As depicted in the aforementioned tourism
website images, they even have to take exploitative entertainment jobs and use
sex to lure guests through provocative dancing and rather suggestive games.
Furthermore, Afro-Cubans, although not represented in the formal tourism economy, are used and stereotyped in the advertisements to attract future
guests. Such stereotypical images portray colonial and primitive images of AfroCubans.
Cabezas mentioned that trainees in hospitality schools are routinely
scrutinized for color, gender and attractiveness. Jorge specifically stated that
trainees could not be “ugly” if they were to have a career in tourism. Such focus
on appearance is reminiscent of the “pleasant aspect” concept, which furthered
race and gender inequality in Cuba. In this respect, the theory of intersectionality,
analyzing the effect of the pleasant aspect on one’s career prospects.
Considering how class, race, and gender can hinder one from working in the
formal tourist sector, the reverse is presented by Cabezas as long as an
employee is deemed visually presentable. Recounting Dr. Kaifa Roland’s color
chart that depicts complexions, there are major differences as to how privileged
light skinned men and women are treated versus dark skinned males and
females. As described previously, Jorge, who was interviewed by Amalia
Cabezas, was a light skinned Cuban and he was able to progress with his
training and become employed at a local hotel due to his appearance. However,
if a potential tourism employee was a dark skinned, Afro-Cuban male, based
upon the appearance and skin complexion, employment opportunities are nonexistent.

Although the revolutionary government clearly stated that racism was
eliminated and that Afro-Cubans “benefited more than any other racial group,”91
statistics prove otherwise. Glass ceiling prevented Afro-Cubans and women from
rising to more prominent and better paid positions, as hiring practices for jobs in
Cuba were highly discriminating. According to a survey conducted in Havana in
2000, blacks were economically impoverished and were, “less likely than whites
or mulattoes to earn (income wise) in the highest 10% category of $700 to
$5,400 annually.”92 To further illustrate the false notion that racism was
eradicated by the revolution, in 2010, USA Today published an open letter from
American social activists to President Raul Castro, addressing the fact that AfroCubans were still vastly mistreated in the 21st Century. In particular, the article
highlighted their exclusion from prominent tourism jobs. According to DeWayne
Wickham, “the signs of racial disadvantage, if not outright racial prejudice are
easy to find. The best jobs in Cuba’s growing tourism industry are
overwhelmingly held by whites.”93 It is alarming to read that, in the 21st Century,
while Cuba is becoming increasingly popular tourist destination, such racial
disparities still exist.

On the other hand, in the informal economy—also referred to as the black
market for earning quick, hard currency—according to Sarah Blue, Afro-Cubans and mulattoes are highly represented. They resort to partaking in illegal activities,
such as drug trafficking, prostitution, etc., as many are desperate to earn living.
Afro-Cubans and mulattoes are less likely to rely on remittances from relatives
living in the United States or other prosperous countries. In that respect, white
Cubans are more fortunate, as some have relatives that have emigrated
following Castro’s arrival to power. According to Blue, the Havana Survey
conducted in 2000 also revealed that 36% of respondents felt that blacks were
more likely to struggle (luchar) for extra income than were whites.94 The Havana
Survey further revealed that blacks and mulattoes were also more likely to have
low-income and middle-income jobs in the state sector. As Blue noted, “Blacks,
and to a lesser degree mulattos, were clearly at a disadvantage relative to whites
in their access to the dollar economy, resulting in lower levels of income.”95

From academic perspective, Dr. L. Kaifa Roland, an anthropologist that
visited Cuba several times for field work purposes, recounts her personal
encounter with racism when she arrived in Cuba in 1999. As the only person of
color in her travel group, she was mistaken as an Afro-Cuban citizen and, when
her party was served mojitos at a local establishment, she was purposely served
her drink last. When she tasted her drink, she realized that it was deliberately
watered down. After sampling the mojitos from others in her party, Roland had
her drink taken back twice for correction. When she confronted the local street hustlers who were trying to get the attention of her group, the jineteros were
shocked to learn that she was a doctoral student from the U.S., completing
fieldwork. The most unfortunate part of this account of racism was the fact that
Roland, due to her complexion and the fact that she was female and wore her
hair in dreadlocks, was automatically deemed to be an Afro-Cuban prostitute.
She described, “Since I had kind of tagged along toward the back of the group,
and most of all, because of my skin color, they assumed I was a prostituta.”96
Again, this clearly demonstrates the effect of the pleasant aspect, as described
by Alejandro de la Fuente. It also highlights that intersectionality remains present
in the Cuban tourism sector. Finally, the theory of Black Marxism is also
applicable, as Dr. Roland was purposely ignored as the only person of color
within her travel group.
Like Alejandro de La Fuente, Roland also contends how Afro-Cubans
were deemed to have reaped benefits from the onset of the revolution.
Therefore, the issue of racism is believed by many to have ceased. Yet, in reality,
racism continues to be both practical and institutional issue. According to Roland,
since racism was deemed eradicated in Cuba, whiteness reigned supreme as
color lines were erased, and the only reality was based upon whiteness and not
the overall blend of Afro-Cuban, mulatto and Spaniard ancestry. Roland states,
“Race tends to be written out of analyses of Cuba’s past and present politicoeconomic processes due to the pre-revolutionary policy of ‘whitening’ and the revolutionary position that removing class exploitation would also eradicate racial
discrimination.97” Racism also rears its ugly head in the form of class distinction.
In Cuba, whiteness is still held in high esteem, and is equated with being an elite,
highly cultured class. In contrast, blacks or Afro-Cubans are on the opposite end
of the spectrum, deemed as having low cultural status. From the tourism
perspective, Roland provides an interesting look at how class distinction also
affects tourists of color when visiting Cuba. Roland contends that tourists from
European countries and Canada, for example, are easily accepted due to their
whiteness. They are implicitly assumed to have great class status and money to
splurge while visiting the island. On the other hand, tourists from South America
and in some cases Africa, are deemed not to be as wealthy and are assumed to
be visiting the island for medical purposes. Consequently, they are believed not
have the monetary means their European or Canadian counterparts possess.
With this in mind, in this case study, WSA is applied to the countries in which
tourists originate from and not from the colonial aspect of who has direct power
from a governance perspective. WSA applied in the tourism sector implies that
tourists from other dominating countries such as the United Kingdom, Italy,
Spain, Germany, and Canada have more access to wealth and are able to travel
to Cuba on a frequent basis. This proves that, while racism was supposedly
eradicated, it is still embedded in Cuban society and politics.

Echoing the sentiment of Fidel Castro’s Democracy Now speech and how
Cuba is proud of their African heritage on the island, the individuals that Roland
interviewed also noted that Cuba is accepting of their heritage and their hybrid
mixture of African, Indian (Taíno, etc.) and European (Spaniard) descent is
valued. Although such “pride” is spoken of, the bold truth and reality is that the
darker the skin color of an individual (which is ultimately associated with being
African), the lower his/her class status is. This, in turn, indicates whether he/she
is worthy of basic human rights, including employment in the tourist sector at the
front desk of a hotel. In regards to the concept of having the right appearance for
work in the tourist sector in Cuba, Roland describes the relationship as being,
“extended beyond the complexion of individual workers and tourists, and
incorporates the global imbalance of power that allows one group to tour while
the other group serves them.”98 This indicates that, in Cuba, tourists still hold
greater value than those who work within the tourist sector. In other words, the
entire industry ultimately serves the needs and in some cases the desires of
tourists. This relationship is also reminiscent of core-periphery versus semiperiphery countries, as the misbalance in power is evident. As the country status
is determined by its strengths and weaknesses, such a relationship allows a
dominant country to take over a weaker one and dictate how the semi-periphery
state will serve the needs or the core country. Furthermore, Dr. Roland’s experience also intertwines with the theories of Black Marxism and
Intersectionality. Dr. Roland visited Cuba as an African-American woman
completing fieldwork for academic purposes; yet, she was mistaken for a
prostitute. From a Black Marxist perspective, the “negro problem,” evidently still
continues to be ignored. In addition, when considering the aspect of invisibility in
the tourist sector, intersectionality also plays an important role in Dr. Roland’s
personal experience, as the fact of being racially profiled while completing
fieldwork is not simply an issue of being Black, but also an African-American
female. In the context of the Theory of Intersectionality, such social injustice is
not exclusive to one component such as race or class distinction.
Intersectionality, gender issues, and racial disparities are ever-present in Cuba,
as one’s social class status is still important in the tourism sector.

Furthermore, regarding only specific races being allowed to work in Cuban
tourism sector, the fact that people must know their place is a clear sign of
racism. In addition to the fact that Afro-Cubans are restricted to low paying jobs
only, the fact they are forced to accept their place is very reminiscent of
segregation in the southern states in the United States. Roland recounted how,
despite her dark skin complexion, she was given a “compliment” by being called
a mulatta by a Cuban musician. Baffled by the remark, she was instructed to say
“thank you” to the musician, since he essentially upgraded her socio status by
referring to her as a mulatta. As Roland clearly states, “Despite the systemic
restructuring of education, hiring, and housing policies early in the revolution, a t/race of emancipation era beliefs about the meanings of skin color and belonging
remain.”99 With such continued disparities in the tourist sector, international
visitors must be aware and cognizant of the blatant racism and class divides that
still exist in Cuba.

Sex Sells in Cuba and the Caribbean

In addition to the issues of race and gender in the tourist sector, the
existence of the sex industry has had a profound effect upon Cuban tourism in
the late 20th Century and most certainly in the 21st Century. As Afro-Cubans and
mulattoes are excluded from prominent positions in the tourism industry, many
men and women have resorted to working illegally as sex workers, in order to
earn quick, hard currency and survive financially. The reemergence of sex work
or prostitution is not a new phenomenon in the Cuban tourist industry, or even in
tourist industries throughout the rest of the Caribbean.

...

Here's another account regarding tourism (I removed the footnotes because it's hard to read otherwise):

The Legalization of Dollars & Foreign Investment

Attempting to find a supplemental source of income, the Cuban government decided to
develop its tourism industry.
This development was financed through foreign joint ventures,
and American dollars which was a necessity to participate in the global, capitalist economy.
Initially, “dollar stores” were established for the convenience of foreigners, and only foreigners
had access to restaurants, transportation, and cultural sites because “Cubans did not have access
to the currency that would allow them to participate in the newly defined tourist industry.” As
a result, a type of “tourist apartheid” formed, which established a two-tiered economy: “[t]ourism was operated with dollars, whereas Cuban citizens were dependent on the peso for
their daily survival in a society with very scarce resources but an abundance of material goods
for foreigners or those who had access to dollars. Additionally, in the mid-1990s, the
government allowed its citizens to receive up to $1,200 per year in family remittances.
Therefore, Cubans who had access to dollars had a much higher standard of living, than those
who only had access to pesos. Accordingly, those with dollars formed a new privileged group
in Cuba.

Therefore, Cuban society was fragmented according to those who had access to dollars and
those who did not. Consequently, a majority of blacks fell into the latter cate According to the
1990 U.S. census, approximately 84 percent of Cuban immigrants in the United States identified themselves as white. Therefore, it is reasonable to assume that the majority of the money sent
to the immigrant’s family would end up in the hands of the island’s whites. Due to limited
access to remittances, blacks’ opportunities to access dollars were restricted to the tourist
sector. It would be reasonable to assume that blacks had “privileged access” to this sector
since, in the early 1980s, “they comprised a significant proportion of the labor force employed in
hotels, restaurants, and other services” in tourism. However, this was not the case. The
tourism sector had evolved from low-status to “the most dynamic and lucrative in the Cuban
economy.” As the industry’s status change occurred, so did a change in color as Cuban whites
made up an overwhelming majority of those employed in tourism.

There is widespread consensus that blacks were underrepresented in the tourist sector, and
even if they did get a job, they faced significant obstacles in getting promotions compared to
their white counterparts. The reasons why blacks were excluded had little to do with
education or qualifications, particularly since blacks received the same education as whites, but
more to do with the racial ideologies of those with the power to employ. Blacks were viewed
as unattractive, dirty, and prone to criminal activities. More importantly the concept of
“pleasant aspect” (buena presencia) has been viewed as the primary source for exclusion.
“Pleasant aspect” has been defined as “a ‘racialized’ construct that claims that blacks cannot be
hired for these jobs due to aesthetic considerations and to the alleged preferences of the
tourists.” Under this concept “blackness is ugly,” and regardless of their formal education,
blacks still lack “proper manners, ‘cultural level,’ and education in their social relationships.”
As expressed through the work of Cuban historians Rafael Duharte and Elsa Santos:

The absence of blacks in tourism is an interesting phenomenon. I think that, in
part, it is an aesthetic question, even though this is not the most important factor.
The main thing is that they are entertaining white tourists . . . These white tourists may or may not be racist. Then, why risk anything, if this is business? You
employ only whites and there is no problem.”

A thought process supported by a 45-year-old female manager of a tourism
corporation in Cuba:

Yes, it is true, there is a lot of racial prejudice in the tourist sector. I have worked
there for about a year, and I know that there is a lot of racism. In my corporation,
for instance, out of 500 workers there are only five blacks . . . There is no explicit
policy stating that one has to be white to work in tourism, but it is regulated that
people must have a pleasant appearance [aspecto agradable], and blacks do not
have it . . . In the fanciest store in the city, La Maisson, all of the workers are
white and out of 14 models only one is mulatto. It is so rare to find black women
in tourism that when there is one, people comment that she must be going to bed
with an important boss. The few black men who work in tourism always perform
manual labor, [working] as truck drivers or lifting merchandise in the warehouses.
They never work directly with the tourists, not even in cleaning jobs. All of the
personnel is [sic] white. I know a black woman who told me of her experience
when she tried to find work in tourism. She has a degree in economics, is a
specialist in computing, and speaks English, French, and German. She went to
the interview very well dressed, even though she herself confessed that everything
was borrowed. Well, it was very unpleasant because in the end she was not
accepted, but they did not give her a specific reason . . . The person who
interviewed her did not know how to handle the situation because he could not tell
her, “We do not accept you because you’re black.” . . . I think that her knowledge
should have counted, after all some white women working in tourism are also
ugly, even if they are whites.

Blacks coped with not only the racial prejudices of Cuban mangers, but with the managerial
personnel of foreign investors as well. For example, in early 1994, the administration of a
major local hotel was taken over by a foreign chain, “which fired dozens of workers to improve
efficiency,” but seemed to only single out blacks in the process. It appeared to be in the
government’s interest to provide investors “with the most conducive environment possible,
including the strict control of labor and its bargaining capacity.” Despite the fact that a
government agency provides access to labor, investors had “complete autonomy to select, hire,
and, when necessary, fire the hotel’s employees.” Therefore, the government lacked the
capacity, or willingness, to regulate and enforce non-discriminatory labor practices. Accordingly, due to restricted access to dollars, through either lucrative jobs or remittances,
racial discrimination reached all-time highs.
Resisting displacement from “the most lucrative economic activities,” blacks participated in
illegal activities, “ranging from prostitution to trafficking in the black market, in order to gain
access to hard currency.” Afro-Cuban women in particular made up a majority of the
jineteras or prostitutes. Prostituting was explained, not only by their limited access to dollars,
but also by tourist’s racialized notions of sexuality:

black sexuality is more appealing precisely because of the racial inferiority of
black women and the unrestrained “primitiveness” of their sexual instincts. These
images, which associate blackness with unrestrained sex, might cause certain
women to be viewed as black in a sexual context who would not necessarily be
considered black in other social situations…[F]or race conscious white male
tourists, the island is paradise, in the sense that rather than being challenged, their
racism is both implicitly and explicitly affirmed. They meet large numbers of
black women who really are sexually available, and, even more delightful for the
white racist, people tell him that these black women are sexually available
because they are so caliente [hot] . . . The very existence of these dark prostitutes
is then used to confirm the alleged moral deficiencies of black and mulatto
women, further racializing the situation.

Immigration, another “strategy of adaptation and resistance,” was also a source of brewing
racism. Cubans, traditionally white, used Havana as a “jumping-off point” to emigrant out of
the country. However, black Cubans migrated to Havana from eastern provinces in an attempt
to take advantage of the new “dollarized economy.” It was interpreted as an assault on the
city, and the government eventually banned all immigration to Havana and required immigrants
to immediately return to their place of origin. These “dark immigrants” were blamed for an
increase in violence and petty crimes, and their behavior was explained in racial terms:

“Look, we all have problems,” [a] white male professional states, “but whereas I
try to solve them through work or other legitimate ways, what blacks do is resort
to robbery.” According to a white female professional, this vision was shared
even by government authorities: “A lot of stealing was going on and [the immigrants] were being accused. Fidel offended them by saying something to the
effect that ‘Habana Vieja is full of delinquents from [the east].’”

There are other examples from other sectors, but tourism is the most lucrative one nowadays. We can go through these if you want.

Note, too, that as a socialist economy the Cuban government is heavily involved in the operation of these sectors and, like the US, Cuba has anti-discrimination laws.

As a joker, he reminds me of Roseanne Roseannadanna: an SNL meme from the past:

Of coure, in restrospect, this skit gets its "humor" by mocking New Yorkers who are marginalized and don't have access to the information or opportunities that could improve their lives. It's "funny" because when it was made, it was politically acceptable to laugh at women from ethnic minorities.

The Cuban system is clear on where it stands regarding racism, and this kind of mass-market, corporate-sanctionned racist humor isn't very popular there because the government came down hard against racism in... 1959.

From Fidel's 2001 anti-racism speech at the UN:


https://www.un.org/WCAR/statements/0109cubaE.htm

How many Afro-Cubans are suing these employers and how many are getting any form of remedy? Is that even possible when the very State that runs the Courts happens to own a good chunk of the tourism industry and is very dependent on it?

I'm quite clearly not the joker here, not when these accusations of widespread discrimination against Afro-Cubans in a socialist country seem to lead to no remedy. At least African Americans can sue if they are discriminated against, and can aim to get some form of remedy.

He's been arguing with PoD in the George Floyd thread defending police brutality for over 100 pages, and it's been going on that long because of the way he debates, which is change the subject constantly or argue against things nobody claims, and now he wants us to think he cares about police brutality against Black people. What a joker!

I don't think I've been defending police brutality, I've simply been questioning the claims that 1) it's obviously because of systemic racism (no, it's not obvious that's the reason) and 2) that defunding or abolishing the police would be the best way to solve the issue of police brutality.

This is yet another lie you have to make up because you lack the arguments to meaningfully debate anything - maybe you should stick to Twitter instead. It certainly better fits your skills

And actually @Pants-of-dog is more than welcome to come and try to explain if there is systemic racism in Cuba, and if cops killing a Black Cuban on June was a result of systemic racism.

I would not describe Cuba and the USA as being systemically racist regimes, by the way.

[QatzelOk]

There are so many leftover anti-communists in the USA that it's really easy (facile) to find articles that criticize any communist country. Same with Muslim countries, and poor countries. Billionaires have an interest in smearing all of them in order to invade or steal from them, and billionaires can afford a lot of media.

The absence of blacks in tourism is an interesting phenomenon.

About a third of the staff at the hotel where I last stayed in Havana were black. Many of them were gay. Same with the bike rental operation. And the restaurants where I ate. And the merchants and souvenir salesmen.

Tourism in Cuba is a well-paying job, so the staff are usually very attractive and charming. A lot of the men are gay because gay men tend to have better manners, especially with women guests.

These same prejudices are used to hire tourism workers in every country on Earth. And while it's true that you can find a lot of black workers in tourism in the USA, they are usually porters, receptionists, and cab drivers - the worse tourism jobs that also require a bit of security guarding and working alone and defenseless.

In Cuba, black people were involved in virtually every aspect of the hotel and restaurant industry, but this is NOT the case in Holguin. This is because very few black people live in Holguin.

In the case of Havana, many of the black people have migrated there from other parts of Cuba, so many of them are marginalized by lack of connections.

Black tourist workers also have to deal with the everyday racism of their Canadian and American (and European) guests, and most tourists from these countries are not part of the educated elite. So in the case of less than prime black representation in some areas, it may be the clients who are driving this.

But thanks for at least TRYING to bolster your prejudices with a five-second google search. I really appreciate the effort you made. Maybe try a non-American and unfunded by capitalism source next time?

[wat0n]

About a third of the staff at the hotel where I last stayed in Havana were black. Many of them were gay. Same with the bike rental operation. And the restaurants where I ate. And the merchants and souvenir salesmen.

But thanks for at least TRYING to bolster your prejudices with a five-second google search. I really appreciate the effort you made.

Wow, what a great anecdotal and totally unverifiable response to academic research!

But even taking that 1/3 Afro-Cuban presence figure at face value, it would still mean Afro-Cubans are underrepresented in the industry

PS: Also, your motivations for accusing the US of similar things are showing when you say I make this argument with "hatred in my heart"

[Unthinking Majority]

Cuba proves that universal healthcare and education are programs that every country should have.

It proves that having a government that can keep law and order is a good thing (shockingly!)...except law and order for the dictators which is completely ignored.

It proves yet again that communist economics sucks (when comparing Cuba to all other countries in Latin America).

It proves that human rights and government transparency/accountability, which are missing in Cuba, are a good thing.

It proves that cars pre-1960 look cooler than today's cars.

[QatzelOk]

But even taking that 1/3 Afro-Cuban presence figure at face value, it would still mean Afro-Cubans are underrepresented in the industry

Not at all.

Black Cubans are only about 10-15 % of Cuba's population.

I realize that the Department of Cuban and Cuban-American Studies at the University of Miami put the percentage of Cuba's black population at 62%, but that is another American lie, motivated by politics and economics. And racism.

I think this lie comes from the prejudicial methodology that leads many racists (racism was normalized in USA for centuries) to consider anyone darker than a Kraft caramel- black. Most Cubans are mixed race and thus, non-white. But black means "African," and people with overtly African features (rather then mixed) are a small minority (real statistics say 10-15%).

In places like Santiago de Cuba, the percentage is higher. And in other regions like Holguin, it's much lower. But even in Havana, black Cubans are a minority of about 10-20%, and much of the black population doesn't live near the tourist resort areas which have always (pre communist) been full of white foreigners, or Cuban tourism workers with money and connections.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Afro-Cubans

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Havana

I think a lot of what you are writing has to do with using false statistics. If you think Cuba is 68% black, and then notice that only 15% of the workers in hotels are black, you can draw some interesting false conclusions. But these conclusions are wrong. And perhaps they were meant to be wrong becasue someone in high places doesn't want you or me to understand or admire Cuba.

And so, like Roseanne Roseannadanna, you should just say at this point, "Sorry. My bad." and that's the end of your little misunderstanding that turned into an empty tirade. Until the next SNL sitcom.

It proves yet again that communist economics sucks (when comparing Cuba to all other countries in Latin America).

What you don't seem to comprehend is that capitalist countries in Latin America, like Guatemala, Chile, Colombia, Haiti, and Honduras, have economies that work better for foreign capital, NOT for the locals. So please DON'T TRY to bicycle around these countries alone. You will be robbed or killed, by a poor person or by an SUV.

Mind you, if our own capitalist countries sink deep enough into their own crap, you might not be able to bike around your own town safely in a few years. Then you will really taste capitalism, instead of just enjoying imperialism which is made of other people's capitalist misery.

[wat0n]

Not at all.

Black Cubans are only about 10-15 % of Cuba's population.

I realize that the Department of Cuban and Cuban-American Studies at the University of Miami put the percentage of Cuba's black population at 62%, but that is another American lie, motivated by politics and economics. And racism.

I think this lie comes from the prejudicial methodology that leads many racists (racism was normalized in USA for centuries) to consider anyone darker than a Kraft caramel- black. Most Cubans are mixed race and thus, non-white. But black means "African," and people with overtly African features (rather then mixed) are a small minority (real statistics say 10-15%).

In places like Santiago de Cuba, the percentage is higher. And in other regions like Holguin, it's much lower. But even in Havana, black Cubans are a minority of about 10-20%, and much of the black population doesn't live near the tourist resort areas which have always (pre communist) been full of white foreigners, or Cuban tourism workers with money and connections.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Afro-Cubans

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Havana

I think a lot of what you are writing has to do with using false statistics. If you think Cuba is 68% black, and then notice that only 15% of the workers in hotels are black, you can draw some interesting false conclusions. But these conclusions are wrong. And perhaps they were meant to be wrong becasue someone in high places doesn't want you or me to understand or admire Cuba.

And so, like Roseanne Roseannadanna, you should just say at this point, "Sorry. My bad." and that's the end of your little misunderstanding that turned into an empty tirade. Until the next SNL sitcom.

Oh so now I am supposed to believe that your super 1/3 estimate is specifically for Afro-Cuban workers with no non-Black ancestry, am I right? Tell me, did you go around asking them? Have you ever thought that all these papers also consider mulattos into their analysis, including the fragments I cited?

[QatzelOk]

Oh so now I am supposed to believe that your super 1/3 estimate is specifically for Afro-Cuban workers with no non-Black ancestry, am I right? Tell me, did you go around asking them? Have you ever thought that all these papers also consider mulattos into their analysis, including the fragments I cited?

I rented a bike, and spent two weeks travelling all over the Havana area, speaking to people who work in tourism, and to lots of ordinary people who don't.

About a third of the workers were "significantly African" at my resort. But Cubans don't have the same obsession with "race" that super-rich white-supremacist countries like USA and Western Europe often demonstrate. In Cuba, everyone is kind of tough and street-wise. Skin color isn't the explainer of all things you want it to be. Cuba doesn't fit into your tidy little narrative of all countries being like the USA - only worse.

And your attempt to squeeze everything into your narrow prejudices has lead you to sickeningly weak methodology that is backed up with zero integrity and lots of bad faith. You are acting as if your little fingers have been called on by the Lord (or the CIA, or Hasbara) to dig up dirt on Cuba and commies.

I remember an overpaid worker at the university where I used to work, who used to - on company time - canvas people for donations to "save Jews from Cuba and send them to Israel!" Her whole schtick was that Jews can't handle equality or hard work, and she was Jewish herself. The Jews I met in Cuba were... the same as everybody else.

Is this really a disaster, wat0n? Will you spend your entire life trying to kill this little experiment in radical equality?

[wat0n]

I rented a bike, and spent two weeks travelling all over the Havana area, speaking to people who work in tourism, and to lots of ordinary people who don't.

About a third of the workers were "significantly African" at my resort. But Cubans don't have the same obsession with "race" that super-rich white-supremacist countries like USA and Western Europe often demonstrate. In Cuba, everyone is kind of tough and street-wise. Skin color isn't the explainer of all things you want it to be. Cuba doesn't fit into your tidy little narrative of all countries being like the USA - only worse.

And your attempt to squeeze everything into your narrow prejudices has lead you to sickeningly weak methodology that is backed up with zero integrity and lots of bad faith. You are acting as if your little fingers have been called on by the Lord (or the CIA, or Hasbara) to dig up dirt on Cuba and commies.

I remember an overpaid worker at the university where I used to work, who used to - on company time - canvas people for donations to "save Jews from Cuba and send them to Israel!" Her whole schtick was that Jews can't handle equality or hard work, and she was Jewish herself. The Jews I met in Cuba were... the same as everybody else.

Is this really a disaster, wat0n? Will you spend your entire life trying to kill this little experiment in radical equality?

Nice strawman there, Qatz, it even includes a completely unverifiable reference to Jews. It's funny how now that I brought a case of an Afro-Cuban person killed by police in Cuba, the identity politics obsessed people are suddenly saying we should not care about stuff as inane as skin pigmentation - all while doing so to no end when it comes to the USA, Canada or Western Europe.

And no, I'm not obsessed with race either. I posted the news to get comments from our local identity politics obsessed, self-declared antirracists and that's easy to tell since I tagged a couple of them in the process.

As you are probably aware, the obsession with race is a lot stronger in the Anglo and Germanic worlds, somewhat weaker in the French one and even weaker in the Hispanic one, owing to the different ideologies regarding the ethics of their colonialism, with some differences on how to approach identity among many others. As such, even though there is evidence of societal racial discrimination in Cuba in the present, I agree that they have traditionally been not as obsessed with race as Americans (for example) have and still are. In the latter case, too, there is also societal racism but I would not be so sure about which one is worse given the scant information about these matters within Cuba, even in Spanish, since there is no free press, no free speech and no widespread use of the internet in Cuba. One mayor difference between both, in this regard, is that Americans have a lot more freedom to criticize societal racism, and racial discrimination in general, within the US than Cubans have to do so when it comes to their own country and society. Likewise, Americans seem to have an easier time to enforce anti-discrimination laws, and get remedies, than Cubans do for the same reasons.

Regardless, as I'm sure you must have noticed, America's obsession with identity politics has been exported to all Western societies during this last decade, and I highly doubt Cuba will be an exception forever (assuming it even is now). You note how the second worst non-traditional American export (CO2) is damaging, well, I think American identity-obsessed politics is even worse

[skinster]

Was thinking yesterday about my trip to Cuba and one of the things I remembered was how many bright and pretty flowers there were all over the place. I miss walking the streets of Verdado, where I felt very safe on my lonesome travel.

[QatzelOk]

Was thinking yesterday about my trip to Cuba and one of the things I remembered was how many bright and pretty flowers there were all over the place. I miss walking the streets of Verdado, where I felt very safe on my lonesome travel.

It's truly eye-opening to visit a place where everyone isn't trying to crush each other with competitive behaviors.

And the flowers can bloom everywhere because no one destroys them out of Shit Life Syndrome. Rich countries like the USA are full of people living a Shit Life Syndrome, and those lucky few who aren't suffering this in those countries are brainwashed by media entertainment to "not care" and to blame all poor people's problems on their own decisions (while the rich are always victims, even when they lie, steal, and bankrupt everyone else).

...now that I brought a case of an Afro-Cuban person killed by police in Cuba...

Yeah, that was some great journalism you did, wat0n. "A black person was killed by cops in Cuba. This must be the exact same thing that is happening in Minneapolis and Portland, but different ONLY because commies are stopping the natural course of vandalism and social collapse we are experiencing in Great-Again-Land. Those commies can't even do social collapse correctly."

[wat0n]

Yeah, that was some great journalism you did, wat0n.

I would never purport to take credit for the work done by Reuters, which is much better than "there is no racism in Cuba at all because I went to Cuba once and 1/3 of the people at my hotel were Black"

"A black person was killed by cops in Cuba. This must be the exact same thing that is happening in Minneapolis and Portland, but different ONLY because commies are stopping the natural course of vandalism and social collapse we are experiencing in Great-Again-Land. Those commies can't even do social collapse correctly."

No, they are not the same because Cuba is willing to be a lot harsher than the US in repressing those who may not be happy about police killings of Black people

It's interesting how authoritarian leftists become when people protest the regimes they like