[wat0n]

@XogGyux

If you cannot show that this vaccine is propaganda, then we can move on to the next point.

Do other Caribbean and Central American countries create groundbreaking vaccines and medical treatments like this?

IIRC Argentina also develops vaccines from time to time. Does that make Argentina a worldwide healthcare hub?

[Pants-of-dog]

@XogGyux

If other countries with similar history and material context are not creating new medicines and have health stats significantly lower than Cuba, we can say that Cuba has a medical system that is better than developing countries and is co oarable to developed countries.

[wat0n]

@XogGyux

If other countries with similar history and material context are not creating new medicines and have health stats significantly lower than Cuba, we can say that Cuba has a medical system that is better than developing countries and is co oarable to developed countries.

Why are you limiting the analysis to Caribbean countries as opposed to all of Latin America?

Are you taking into account Cuba was already more developed than most countries in the Caribbean in the 1950s?

[Sivad]

no respect for the democratic choices of the population

If you had respect for the democratic choices of the Cuban population you wouldn't be shilling for the totalitarian regime that brutally represses democracy in Cuba.

[XogGyux]

Yes, and health is a product that you can buy, just like happiness, friends and self fulfillment. What a brilliant article this is going to be!

....

On this page, we have *learned* from Xog ('backed up' by noemon) that if a country has dirty or clogged toilets, its system needs to be violently overthrown by force with no respect for the democratic choices of the population. Since the USA has bases in 100 countries, there must be a lot of clogged toilet-countries in the world, just dreaming of having their governments overthrown by corporate whores like us.

You fucking drama Queen. Nobody has advocated for violence.
Clean toilets/sewage might seem to you like a 1st world luxury but it is not. Infectious diseases arise from this. Ever heard of the fucking black plague?
It is not surprising that now Cuba is having cholera outbreaks Something that was fucking unheard of prior to the idiot in chief getting power.

It looks like the only protection against colonialism is to maintain a first-world level of cleanliness and technology, otherwise, rich countries will invade and steal all your stuff. It looks like the worst crime you can commit is to live simply, without the bells and whistels of first-world superpowers and their sidekicks. (what a racist and classist worldview this is)

Are you still crying? I would have thought that by now you would leave your imperialist-loving-1st-world-country of Canada and go live in Cuba for a happy ever after. The hypocrisy is off the charts!

No pictures of all those shiny toilets in El Salvador, Honduras, Argentina, or Peru.

Nobody is fucking praising those places, you are praising Cuba. That's the fucking difference.

Forced simplicity could save the planet. But some posters in this thread can only think of accumulating more shit than others. Different dreams.

Awww how cute... I guess you are talking about yourself right? I don't see you packing your shit and moving to Cuba... having cold feet? Don't worry once you get to cuba and living like a cuban you will be walking everywhere and there won't be AC anywhere so your feet will keep warm Just make sure you don't step into sewage water and contract an infection that will require an amputation... just saying

@XogGyux

If other countries with similar history and material context are not creating new medicines and have health stats significantly lower than Cuba, we can say that Cuba has a medical system that is better than developing countries and is co oarable to developed countries.

You are like a fucking broken record. Told you already, they could invent the live-forever pill and they would still be crap because their hospitals are crap, there are no doctors, no equipment, no medicines, etc.
Did you even bother watching the documentary I linked? The cuban doctors expose the shit.... they send what little medicines they have to other countries for $$, political favors and for propaganda.

[Pants-of-dog]

@XogGyux

Your weird attempts to change the subject to the conditions of hospitals is noted and dismissed as irrelevant.

Since you have no intelligent or relevant criticisms, it seems our discussion is over.

[XogGyux]

@Pants-of-dog
Your weird attempts to spew propaganda and ignore reality and praise of a repressive government that keeps its people in misery and pain are noted.
Since you have no thought of your own, other than being an arm of propaganda, it seems this discussion is over.

We have had this dance before, lets see how long it takes you for you to come back with more of the same

[wat0n]

@Pants-of-dog whines about the plumbing at private homes yet doesn't care about the plumbing in hospitals?

[Pants-of-dog]

I have noticed that many people accuse me of making certain strawman arguments.

Please note that I will ignore these.

[wat0n]

I have noticed that many people accuse me of making certain strawman arguments.

Please note that I will ignore these.

"Your weird attempts to change the subject to the conditions of hospitals is noted and dismissed as irrelevant" as if the material conditions of hospitals were not a key part of any healthcare system and a determinant of healthcare outcomes.

But hey, at least Cuba has adequate plumbing for private homes (although we're still waiting for actual evidence to back this claim up).

[Pants-of-dog]

It is logically possible for a country to have hospital conditions like any other developing country and at the same time for the same country to be able to develop groundbreaking vaccines.

Because of this, the claim that hospitals are not pristine does not refute the claim.

As for the discussion about plumbing to remove human waste, please note that I did exactly what @XogGyux said I should: I went there myself.

Anyone who has walked through poor barrios in Santiago de Chile, the DF, and other Latin American cities can literally smell the difference. Cuban neighborhoods do not smell like that.

[wat0n]

It is logically possible for a country to have hospital conditions like any other developing country and at the same time for the same country to be able to develop groundbreaking vaccines.

Because of this, the claim that hospitals are not pristine does not refute the claim.

Yet simply developing groundbreaking vaccines doesn't mean the country has a good healthcare system. The US also develops vaccines all the time yet there are justified complaints about the healthcare system here.

Even worse, you can also have a healthcare system that provides good sanitary outcomes (conditional on cultural factors related to how well people take care of their own health) but that is extremely expensive. The US is one such case (and is exactly what the complaints are ultimately about).

As for the discussion about plumbing to remove human waste, please note that I did exactly what @XogGyux said I should: I went there myself.

Anyone who has walked through poor barrios in Santiago de Chile, the DF, and other Latin American cities can literally smell the difference. Cuban neighborhoods do not smell like that.

That's pretty subjective. Even worse, although I do agree though that poor barrios in Santiago tend to smell worse than upper class ones, I wouldn't be so sure as to whether it's about plumbing specifically or for some other reason (e.g. if the municipality doesn't clean them often or if they have factories there whose emissions smell, I actually lived in one such "neighborhood" in the countryside outside Santiago as a kid).

I'm guessing @XogGyux can comment on how Cuban cities smell?

[Pants-of-dog]

Again, I will not address strawman.

It is true that @XogGyux 's preferred methodology is subjective.

[XogGyux]

It is logically possible for a country to have hospital conditions like any other developing country and at the same time for the same country to be able to develop groundbreaking vaccines.

Because of this, the claim that hospitals are not pristine does not refute the claim.

Then you have a poor understanding of what a medical power really looks like. That's like claiming the school at the corner is pretty good, despite being riddled with drugs, rapist teachers and frequent shootings because 1 student from that school made it to hardball when the rest are in prison .
Especially given the Cuban's government propensity for cheap propaganda, you need to carefully examine every aspect of a claim. And as before... no country with hospitals and pharmacies in the conditions of Cuba's can possibly be called a medical power or anything of sorts. Cuba's medical institutions are in just as much shambles as the rest of Latin American poor countries, in many cases far worse. They just act as if this was not happening and send whatever resources they have away for the propaganda, for you... you are the target of that propaganda I guess it is working after all.

[Pants-of-dog]

Then you have a poor understanding of what a medical power really looks like.

Since I never made that claim, this is a strawman.

Compared to other countries with a similar history and material context, Cuba is doing quite well in terms of medical matters.

[XogGyux]

Since I never made that claim, this is a strawman.

Compared to other countries with a similar history and material context, Cuba is doing quite well in terms of medical matters.

No, it is not. And I have shown that.

[Pants-of-dog]

@XogGyux

No, you have not.

At best, you showed some unsourced photos without comparing them to photos of hospitals in similar countries.

[XogGyux]

@XogGyux

No, you have not.

At best, you showed some unsourced photos without comparing them to photos of hospitals in similar countries.

First.. you can follow the link to find the source. These are not "unsourced photos". In many cases there are videos as well. Then... why does it matter if they are sourced or not if they are real? I can attest to the veracity and accuracy of these photos.. and so can you if you go there and check those places for yourself. You are trying to escape, you are not getting away that easily.

[wat0n]

Again, I will not address strawman.

It is true that @XogGyux 's preferred methodology is subjective.

What's the straw man? You are the one saying Cuban healthcare is great because of a random vaccine developed there. I'm putting that reasoning into question.

[Pants-of-dog]

@XogGyux

Every time I have been in a Cuban hospital, it has never looked like those photos.

So, according to your preferred methodology, I have shown myself that these photos are inaccurate.