[Sivad]

Are Cuban doctors actually doctors? Are they doctors by first world standards or are they like medical techs that the Cuban government just calls doctors for like propaganda or whatever?

[XogGyux]

@XogGyux

Please show how Cimavax is propaganda. Thanks.

I did it earlier.
It has naive people like you spewing nonsense. That is propaganda.

I am not going to do the research for you, but I will be kind enough to get you started. The first red flag should be the short Wikipedia page. We live in an era than even a viral non-sensical "purple dress" (or is it gold dress? ) gets a Wikipedia of its own with 50+ sources. So apparently, this stupid internet meme has more sources than a groundbreaking cancer-fighting vaccine.
Then... we can start perusing around and checking each of the sources of this Wikipedia entry for this nonsensical story. In fact, they have been talking about all of this nonsense for nearly 3 decades. There are publications talking about this vaccine dating to the 1990's https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/9636835/ and there are even mainstream media article dating to the time were myspace and geocities were still alive: https://www.cnn.com/2009/HEALTH/02/19/c ... ef=24hours
So... either this is mostly a hoax by a government that has a propensity to embellish their minute accomplishments to get some karma points... or they are the most inept group of medical researchers that somehow are still experimenting with this supposedly game-changing cancer vaccine and keeping it under wraps for nearly 3 decades. At this rate of "cutting edge research" they will finish doing their clinical trials by the time humans have evolved into fucking machines and the vaccine will have to be rebranded to Norton 360 or something
So which one is it? are they fucking inept? or are they just deceitful?
I told you already. No medical powerhouse would allow their hospitals to be in the disarray that Cuban hospitals are. Do you want to drink the cool-aid? be my guest. It does not affect me in the most minimal fashion.

For the record, I am not doing any more research on whatever bogus shit you post. Do your own! I got my dose of propaganda from Cuba a long time ago and it was a large dose, I don't want to OD . I am still recovering from that

[Sivad]

Spanish Doctor Is Said to Be Aiding Castro
By Reuters
Dec. 25, 2006

MADRID, Dec. 24 (Reuters) — A renowned Spanish surgeon has been flown to Cuba to try to stop a steady deterioration in President Fidel Castro’s health, a Spanish newspaper reported Sunday.

The surgeon, José Luis García Sabrido, an intestinal specialist, traveled to Cuba on Thursday on an aircraft chartered by the Cuban government, said the left-leaning newspaper, El Periódico de Catalunya.

Dr. García Sabrido was to carry out tests on Mr. Castro to see if he needed another operation after he underwent emergency surgery for intestinal bleeding in July, the newspaper said, citing hospital sources.

The doctor’s plane carried advanced medical equipment not available in Cuba, the paper reported.

[Pants-of-dog]

I did it earlier.
It has naive people like you spewing nonsense. That is propaganda.

I am not going to do the research for you, but I will be kind enough to get you started. The first red flag should be the short Wikipedia page. We live in an era than even a viral non-sensical "purple dress" (or is it gold dress? ) gets a Wikipedia of its own with 50+ sources. So apparently, this stupid internet meme has more sources than a groundbreaking cancer-fighting vaccine.

The length of a Wikipedia article is usually a factor of how much interest people put it the subject. It us not a measure of veracity. So this is not a logical criticism or evidence that it is propaganda.

Then... we can start perusing around and checking each of the sources of this Wikipedia entry for this nonsensical story. In fact, they have been talking about all of this nonsense for nearly 3 decades. There are publications talking about this vaccine dating to the 1990's https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/9636835/ and there are even mainstream media article dating to the time were myspace and geocities were still alive: https://www.cnn.com/2009/HEALTH/02/19/c ... ef=24hours
So... either this is mostly a hoax by a government that has a propensity to embellish their minute accomplishments to get some karma points... or they are the most inept group of medical researchers that somehow are still experimenting with this supposedly game-changing cancer vaccine and keeping it under wraps for nearly 3 decades. At this rate of "cutting edge research" they will finish doing their clinical trials by the time humans have evolved into fucking machines and the vaccine will have to be rebranded to Norton 360 or something
So which one is it? are they fucking inept? or are they just deceitful?

Neither.

Your first link is to a peer reviewed study that shows that the first trials in 1998 were successful.

The second is an article about how the vaccine did well in the subsequent testing over the next ten years.

And now, ten years after that, the US is testing it for themselves because other countries have successfully used it.

Thank you for those sources, since they show it is not propaganda but instead is verified medical science.

I told you already. No medical powerhouse would allow their hospitals to be in the disarray that Cuban hospitals are. Do you want to drink the cool-aid? be my guest. It does not affect me in the most minimal fashion.

For the record, I am not doing any more research on whatever bogus shit you post. Do your own! I got my dose of propaganda from Cuba a long time ago and it was a large dose, I don't want to OD . I am still recovering from that

The rest of this is irrelevant. I am ignoring it.

[XogGyux]

The length of a Wikipedia article is usually a factor of how much interest people put it the subject. It us not a measure of veracity. So this is not a logical criticism or evidence that it is propaganda.



Neither.

Your first link is to a peer reviewed study that shows that the first trials in 1998 were successful.

The second is an article about how the vaccine did well in the subsequent testing over the next ten years.

And now, ten years after that, the US is testing it for themselves because other countries have successfully used it.

Thank you for those sources, since they show it is not propaganda but instead is verified medical science.



The rest of this is irrelevant. I am ignoring it.

You don't get it do you? It is not a point of wether it works or not. I couldn't care less either way. You cannot claim being a professional driver when your only success is 1 win on a xbox f1 racing game.
Cuba's hospitals are disgusting. Even if they could cure lung cancer they are not a medical powerhouse. Re-purposing some sort of pre-existing vaccine and spending 30 years doing research and staying still in clinical trials is hardly some achievement, let alone the silver bullet that would re-characterize the rest of their failures. Have you heard the "learn to walk first and then you can run" phrase? Flushing some toilets, cleaning some floors, stocking their pharmacy and paying a survivable wage to their doctors would be a very first tiny step. These grandiose ideas of "cancer vaccine" is similar to the "lets replace meat-producing cows for milk-producing cows" that decimated the Cuban meat industry early on.
It is propaganda. It reads well in a neat 1 page article. "Cuba vs cancer". But it is not real, it is a mirage. To treat cancer you first have to diagnose it and you can barely get an x-ray in cuba in time much less a CT scan or a PET scan. Flow cytometry analysis for cancer phenotype? Doubtful.

Edit:
Imagine this. You are dirt poor, you have your wife, your son and your daughter eating beans and rice 6/7 days and on the 7th day you splurge with an omelette that you all share. What would it be called if one day we meet, I comment that I am hungry and you invite me to a fairly expensive dinner? Show off? Trying to impress others? An ass? Poor father? Poor husband?... Now you are a country, your hospitals are crumbling, your doctors are doing taxi work yet you are sending your personnel and your very limited resources to other nations... My friend, that is propaganda.

[Pants-of-dog]

You don't get it do you? It is not a point of wether it works or not. I couldn't care less either way. You cannot claim being a professional driver when your only success is 1 win on a xbox f1 racing game.

Again, the question is whether or not it is propaganda.

It is not. It is a successful cancer vaccine.

[XogGyux]

Again, the question is whether or not it is propaganda.

It is not. It is a successful cancer vaccine.

LOL no it is not. If it is on clinical trials... it is not a "successful" anything. You are doing the trials to see what it is and what it isn't.

Imagine this. You are dirt poor, you have your wife, your son and your daughter eating beans and rice 6/7 days and on the 7th day you splurge with an omelette that you all share. What would it be called if one day we meet, I comment that I am hungry and you invite me to a fairly expensive dinner? Show off? Trying to impress others? An ass? Poor father? Poor husband?... Now you are a country, your hospitals are crumbling, your doctors are doing taxi work yet you are sending your personnel and your very limited resources to other nations... My friend, that is propaganda. The worse part... it is working because it has you brainwashed. In essence... people like you that buy into the propaganda is perpetuating this system that is keeping 11million Cubans in dire situations. Imagine that, you are a bit guilty every time you fall for this nonsense.

[Pants-of-dog]

If it is on clinical trials... it is not a "successful" anything. You are doing the trials to see what it is and what it isn't.

You just posted evidence that it completed clinical trials in Cuba.

The Wikipedia article showed that it is now being tested in used there and in several other countries. The fact that it is also being tested again in the USA does not make the previous successes magically disappear.

[XogGyux]

You just posted evidence that it completed clinical trials in Cuba.

The Wikipedia article showed that it is now being tested in used there and in several other countries. The fact that it is also being tested again in the USA does not make the previous successes magically disappear.

Dude.. read the fucking conclusions:

We conclude that the proposed vaccination with hu-EGF was well tolerated and that antibody titers against self EGF were developed. The results of this trial may be useful in the design of new clinical trials with higher dose immunization protocols and using more effective adjuvants.

I am not going to be doing this research for you. You are being sloppy copy-pasting nonsense propaganda. ,
I already told you. Even if they had a cure for all lung cancer, it does not change a thing. DOES NOT CHANGE A THING. If you got 11m cubans attending hospitals with overflowing toilet crap, if your doctors are doing taxi work, if you have to recycle and autoclave disposable instrumentation because you cannot afford to throw away disposable items. If your surgical blades have gone so dull that you cannot actually cut the patient's body. If your hospitals are leeking sewage and the matress are nest for worms and isects... you are not a medical powerhouse. I don't fucking care if you are selling a live-forever vaccine to Putin or a cancer cure to Kim jon un... if your people are in such conditions, you dont get to call yourself a powerhouse on anything. This is propaganda and you are being foolish for falling for it.

[Pants-of-dog]

@XogGyux

yes, that quoted text is from the first trial, from 1998.

the CNN article showed the results of the next ten years of testing.

And now we are ten years beyond that. At the stage where it is being used successfully.

[XogGyux]

Dude stop the nonsense. You are as likely to convince me of Cuba being some sort of medical powerhouse as I am of convicing you that Japanese, rather than english or french is the spoken language in Canada. I was there for 20 fucking years. The images of crap floating in the floors of schools and hospitals, of roofs falling, of cockroaches inside the food of hospitals are not going to go away by you dangling any sort of non-sensical "cancer cure". The pharmacies in cuba hardly have blood pressure, diabetic medications or antibiotics. Tell the asthmatic that it is OK that they cannot breathe today but that if they get lung cancer maybe this experimental drug might help them live 4 more months.
Honestly... I don't give a shit if this "vaccine" is real or not. It could be real, chances are they stumbled on it by mistake the same way penicillin was discovered... a happy accident. They are not curing cancer, their pharmacies are empty, their hospitals are falling, the doctors are fleeing the island or driving taxis. Meanwhile, everytime you bring up a magic vaccine cure I will be playing the world's tinniest violin.

[Pants-of-dog]

@XogGyux

Are you talking to me?

[XogGyux]

You or the wall. I can hardly tell anymore. The difference is subtle.

[Pants-of-dog]

@XogGyux

If you cannot show that this vaccine is propaganda, then we can move on to the next point.

Do other Caribbean and Central American countries create groundbreaking vaccines and medical treatments like this?

[XogGyux]

Rofl. Do you even realize how dumb this is? Would you be trying to convince a jewish holocaust survival of how gentle the germans were? Would you be trying to convince a slave of how their "masters" only had their best intentions in mind? This is ridiculous "we can move to the next point". There is no next point there is only one point and one point alone... Cuba is in crumbles, a failed state. A victim of totalitarianism. A victim of lies. A victim of propaganda. Abused by an inept leader with a big ego. Abused by the USSR in their stupid cold war with the US.
You are not going to find enough "redeeming" qualities on a handful of propaganda articles. It is too late for that.
You want to talk about beautiful beaches and landscapes? knock your socks off.

Go ahead. explain to these people how they are wrong... How it is OK that a new mom have to conect a fan to 2 live wires to have a little bit of air after giving birth, how it is fine to have a disgusting (and unhigienic bathroom), how it is OK to have blood and other fluids in your hospital mattress, or how it is fine to have worms, cockroaches and other insects in your hospitals. Then... go ahead and explain them that all that suffering is not big deal because their country is a "medical powerhouse" that makes some sort of vaccine for lung cancer

[noemon]

@XogGyux

If you cannot show that this vaccine is propaganda, then we can move on to the next point.

Do other Caribbean and Central American countries create groundbreaking vaccines and medical treatments like this?

He has adequately shown that promoting the idea of the Cuban Health Services as some kind of success is propaganda.

You however have not shown that the Cuban Health Services are succesful in anyway.

Do you have any actual argument here other than peddling some Cuban vaccine as a holy grail for your argument?

[skinster]

Dude, you shill for totalitarian regimes, compared to that Biden 2020 is almost respectable. Your chud politics are on the same level as like neo-nazis. You gotta be beyond deluded if you think you got a leg to stand on here.

This from the Empire baby who voted for Trump this year:

Thanks for that, Sivad.

[Sivad]

Cuban infant mortality and longevity: health care or repression?

Health Policy and Planning, Volume 33, Issue 6, July 2018, Pages 755–757

Highlights

Cuban healthcare statistics are flawed.

The health achievements are in part the result of repressive methods.

The health achievements are in part the result of policies that are unrelated to health care provision.

Ongoing political changes in Cuba following Fidel Castro’s death offer an opportunity to evaluate his regime’s legacy with regards to health outcomes. The common assessment is that Cuba’s achievements in lowering infant mortality and increasing longevity are among the praiseworthy outcomes of the regime—a viewpoint reinforced by studies published in US medical journals (Campion and Morrissey 1993; Cooper and Kennelly, 2006)1 We argue that some of the praise is unjustified. Although Cuban health statistics appear strong, they overstate the achievements because of data manipulation. Moreover, their strength is not derived from the successful delivery of health care but rather from the particular repressive nature of the regime which comes at the expense of other populations.

Cuban health statistics appear to be a paradox. Wealth and health are correlated because greater wealth can buy better health care. Yet, Cuba remains desperately poor and appears to be healthy. Cuban life expectancies of 79.5 years and infant mortality rates of 4.3 per 1000 live births (2015) compare well with rich nations like the USA (78.7 years and 5.7 per 1, 000 live births) yet its per capita income of 7602.3$ make it one of the poorest economies in the hemisphere (World Development Indicators DataBank, 2017).

How is Cuba healthy while poor? Most attribute the fact to Cuba’s zero monetary cost health care system. There is some truth to that attribution. With 11.1% of GDP dedicated to health care and 0.8% of the population working as physicians, a substantial amount of resources is directed towards reducing infant mortality and increasing longevity. An economy with centralized economic planning by government like that of Cuba can force more resources into an industry than its population might desire in order to achieve improved outcomes in that industry at the expense of other goods and services the population might more highly desire.

Centralized planning has disadvantages. Physicians are given health outcome targets to meet or face penalties. This provides incentives to manipulate data Take Cuba’s much praised infant mortality rate for example. In most countries, the ratio of the numbers of neonatal deaths and late fetal deaths stay within a certain range of each other as they have many common causes and determinants. One study found that that while the ratio of late fetal deaths to early neonatal deaths in countries with available data stood between 1.04 and 3.03 (Gonzalez, 2015)—a ratio which is representative of Latin American countries as well (Gonzalez and Gilleskie, 2017).2 Cuba, with a ratio of 6, was a clear outlier. This skewed ratio is evidence that physicians likely reclassified early neonatal deaths as late fetal deaths, thus deflating the infant mortality statistics and propping up life expectancy.3 Cuban doctors were re-categorizing neonatal deaths as late fetal deaths in order for doctors to meet government targets for infant mortality.

Using the ratios found for other countries, corrections were proposed to the statistics published by the Cuban government: instead of 5.79 per 1000 births, the rate stands between 7.45 and 11.16 per 1000 births. Recalculating life expectancy at birth to account for these corrections (using WHO life tables and assuming that they are accurate depictions of reality), the life expectancy at birth of men by between 0.22 and 0.55 years (Gonzalez, 2015).

Misreporting to meet fixed targets is not the only reason for the low infant mortality rate. An ethnographic study of the Cuban health system showed that physicians who worried that a mother’s behavior might lead to missing the centrally established targets will prescribe the forceful internment in a state clinic (casa de maternidad) so that they may regulate her behavior.4 Physicians often perform abortions without clear consent of the mother, raising serious issues of medical ethics, when ultrasound reveals fetal abnormalities because ‘otherwise it might raise the infant mortality rate’ (Hirschfeld 2007b:12).5

Coercing or pressuring patients into having abortions artificially improve infant mortality by preventing marginally riskier births from occurring help doctors meet their centrally fixed targets. At 72.8 abortions per 100 births, Cuba has one of the highest abortion rates in the world.6 If only 5% of the abortions are actually pressured abortions meant to keep health statistics up, life expectancy at birth must be lowered by a sizeable amount. If we combine the misreporting of late fetal deaths and pressured abortions, life expectancy would drop by between 1.46 and 1.79 years for men. In Figure 1 below, we show that that with this adjustment alone, instead of being first in the ranking of life expectancy at birth for men in Latin America and the Caribbean, Cuba falls either to the third or fourth place depending on the range.7



Other repressive policies, unrelated to health care, contribute to Cuba’s health outcomes. For example, car ownership is heavily restricted in Cuba and as a result the country’s car ownership rate is far below the Latin American average (55.8 per 1000 persons as opposed to 267 per 1000) (Road Safety, 2016). A low rate of automobile ownership results in little traffic congestion and few auto fatalities. In Brazil, where the car ownership rate is 7.3 times above that of Cuba, road fatalities reduce male and female life expectancy at birth by 0.8 and 0.2 years (Chandran et al. 2013). All else being equal, government restrictions of automobile ownership improves Cuban life expectancy by reducing accidents but also by forcing the population to increase their reliance on more physically demanding forms of transportation (e.g. cycling and walking) (Borowy, 2013). In fact, local physicians attribute a strong role to the massive introduction of bicycles in order to explain the decrease in traffic accidents mortality (Garcell and Quesada, 2011). Another example is the rationing books entitling Cubans to limited quantities of goods priced well-below market-clearing levels. This implies that there is a need to ration quantities consumed. One good illustration is that during the ‘Special Period’ (the prolonged economic crisis caused by the collapse of the Soviet Union), there were ‘sustained shortages in the food-rationing system’ that led to reductions in per capita daily energy intake (Franco et al. 2007). Combined with the increase in the levels of energy expenditures due to the reliance on physically demanding forms of transportation, this led to a reduction in net nutrition. Accidently, this crisis led to the halving of obesity rates and, although one has to be careful in causal terms, this likely contributed to important reductions of deaths attributed to diabetes, coronary heart diseases and strokes (there were also increases in the number of cases of neuropathy).8

Finally, these outcomes come at cost to other population segments. The maternal mortality ratio of Cuba in 2015 was higher than in Latin American countries like Barbados, Belize, Chile, Costa Rica, Mexico and Uruguay (Trends in Maternal Mortality 1990 to 2015, 2015). In terms of healthy life expectancy, Cuba ranked behind Costa Rica, Chile, Peru and Bermuda and marginally surpassed Uruguay, Puerto Rica, Panama, Nicaragua and Colombia (Global Burden of Disease, 2017). This is despite the aforementioned data manipulation on top of having a greater physician density and share of national resources allocated to health than these countries.

Cuban mortality and longevity statistics appear impressive. They are a result of some combination of the government’s choice to allocate more resources into the health care industry (at the expense of other industries that could produce needed goods) and from coercive measures through both health delivery and economic planning that improve health statistics at the expense of other spheres of life.

Although the USA and other countries re-examine how to design health care delivery they should not uncritically accept the myth that the Cuban health care system has been the sole, or even the most important, cause of Cuba’s abnormally high longevity statistics. The role of Cuban economic and political oppression in coercing ‘good’ health outcomes merits further study.

https://academic.oup.com/heapol/article ... 55/5035051

[skinster]

[QatzelOk]

Wealth and health are correlated because greater wealth can buy better health care.

Yes, and health is a product that you can buy, just like happiness, friends and self fulfillment. What a brilliant article this is going to be!

....

On this page, we have *learned* from Xog ('backed up' by noemon) that if a country has dirty or clogged toilets, its system needs to be violently overthrown by force with no respect for the democratic choices of the population. Since the USA has bases in 100 countries, there must be a lot of clogged toilet-countries in the world, just dreaming of having their governments overthrown by corporate whores like us.

It looks like the only protection against colonialism is to maintain a first-world level of cleanliness and technology, otherwise, rich countries will invade and steal all your stuff. It looks like the worst crime you can commit is to live simply, without the bells and whistels of first-world superpowers and their sidekicks. (what a racist and classist worldview this is)

No pictures of all those shiny toilets in El Salvador, Honduras, Argentina, or Peru. But we can all surmise that their toilets are spotless since they don't have communist governments. (or that certain posters use their American wealth and consumer culture to feel superior over other people who have to settle for cooperation and voluntary (or involuntary) simplicity.

Forced simplicity could save the planet. But some posters in this thread can only think of accumulating more shit than others. Different dreams.

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