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#15260504
late wrote:In that era, we not only accepted that, we installed dictators of our liking. Like the Shah...

There is a simple reason Castro never faced a revolution. We would have supported it, you must have figured out that much, even if the rest of the Cold War is beyond your ken.


Not when the 30 year old revolutionary was publicly anti-American.

You could actually read the Department of State website, the US ambassador would see everything happen in real time and/or speak to key Cuban figures and report back to DC. As an example, here's one report about him meeting Fidel Castro himself in June 1959:

US Ambassador to Cuba wrote:FOREIGN RELATIONS OF THE UNITED STATES, 1958–1960, CUBA, VOLUME VI

320. Telegram From the Embassy in Cuba to the Department of State1

Havana, June 12, 1959—6 p.m.

1555. I saw Castro for an hour and a quarter this afternoon. He was relaxed and friendly and showed no signs of being upset at our note.2 We had a discussion ranging over effects of Agrarian Reform Law on American interests and on the role of private enterprise, especially American enterprise, in new Cuba.

On Agrarian Reform I mentioned that our two sources of concern were (1) possible decline in sugar production affecting supplies to American market and (2) compensation for expropriated properties.

Castro gave strong assurances Cuba would not fail to meet US sugar quota but admitted a slight drop in production possible. I expressed appreciation for assurances but suggested best course here was perhaps to await developments to which he agreed. He said distribution of land into very small parcels would be ruinous to production and government aimed rather at establishment of cooperatives of reasonable economic size. Re his message to Secretary Benson, Castro regretted going out of channels but said he had to reassure public in Cuba and in US on this important matter. I gave him background on reasons for lifting restrictions on cane plantings in US, at which he expressed surprise, having previously understood this action a result of Agrarian Reform Law. I expressed view that private conversations between us might have developed some better way of conveying to US Government this confidence in adequate sugar supplies than through 8 million ton offer to Secretary Benson. He agreed.

Castro found our concern over compensation provisions natural but stressed point that revolutionary government was honest and would fulfill promises to pay. He said difficulty was that government lacked resources to pay promptly in cash unless it could reach some financial arrangement with US. Land reform could not wait, he said, until government able to pay in cash; it had to be undertaken everywhere once it was started. This a matter of life or death, Castro stated. Expropriations would begin next year. Government not disposed to quibble over 20, 30 or 40 million pesos in total amount and he confident difficulties could be negotiated out as they arose. In reply to my doubts concerning adequacy of registered value of lands, he said registered value of American companies relatively high. I stated that American [Page 530]companies already seriously damaged by Agrarian Reform Law in decline of stock values and cited reduction of one company’s stock quotation from 37 to 21. Castro confident values would rise again.

I outlined American belief in private enterprise as basis for economic development and asked what Cuban attitude was toward foreign private investment in Cuba. Castro stated revolutionary government wanted private enterprise; preferred national to foreign where possible, but where impossible was glad to get foreign. Reason for preference: National investment was all in the family, created no internal problems. He said it especially desirable that basic industries like fertilizer be national and that public utilities were also a special case. For this reason government preferred foreign credits to foreign investment but would pass such credits along to national private enterprise. Government favored state industry only where private enterprise would not come in [and?] fill an essential need. I stressed constructive role of American companies in Cuban economy and questioned Castro on his hostility to “intereses creados”. He laughed and said he used this term to apply where interests had been acquired illegally or with special privileges but not to mean legitimate business concerns even though large. He readily recognized that American firms had played constructive role, met taxes and provided good wages and working conditions for industrial workers but said conditions of field workers pitiful. He also asked why American administration cane growers in Cuba had been unable to obtain high yield of planters in US. [sic]

I urged on Castro the importance of my maintaining close relations with him because of geographical proximity of countries and interlocking economies. He was entirely agreeable to this suggestion but suggested that on economic matters it usually more satisfactory for me to see Economic Minister Boti in whom he had great confidence. He apologized repeatedly for delays in seeing me.

In my opinion this meeting was useful and generally satisfactory. Castro recognizes our concern over aspects of Agrarian Reform mentioned. Groundwork has been laid by our note and by this talk for further discussions if and when our legitimate interests begin to be really hurt.

Bonsal


I found the bolded part hilarious
#15260505
late wrote:There is a simple reason Castro never faced a revolution.

Kim Jong Un in north korea didn't face a revolution either. Does that mean he is good or his people love him?

In that era, we not only accepted that, we installed dictators of our liking. Like the Shah...

In other words. You did it, so then its ok :lol: .
Except it is worse. The US might encroach and/or disrespect the freedoms of other people, but for the most part reports the freedoms of its citizen. The US takes advantage of other people but often times to the benefit of US interests and US citizen interests. Cuba is not doing that. Cuba is harming its own citizens, that is the real problem here. You are trying to introduce a whataboutism, without realizing it does not even apply.

QatzelOk wrote:
The "reality" that the statistics regarding Female Inventors demonstrate is that feminism is more developed in Cuba than it is in most rich, Western colonial nations like the ones we both live in.

We think that "feminism" means dikey man-hating women in power-suits acting like "the worst men of the 20th Century."

In Cuba, it means that female concerns get the same importance as male concerns. This can only happen when you eliminate the male (and male-acting) oligarch classes. Oligarchy is just male hunting behavior that has been sublimated into "hunting other people." That's what our system trains us to do - to hunt other people as if they were animals to feed our kids.

All your kvetching about how horrible Cuba was to you... is just you trying to hunt other people in order to "eat their dead carcasses."

Sure, since cuba is so rich in female inventors, then you should not have any trouble listing a few dozen inventions that cuban women have done in the past two decades. Go ahead, I am waiting for your answer.
#15260515
late wrote:In that era, we not only accepted that, we installed dictators of our liking. Like the Shah...

We didn't install the Shah that is simply another Marxist lie. We may have put our finger on the scale but Mosaddegh was no paragon of democracy and the coup had widespread support inside Iran. The current Muslim terrorist regime certainly has no grounds to complain. The Shia r3ligous establishment supported Mosaddegh's overthrow.
Last edited by Rich on 30 Dec 2022 21:06, edited 1 time in total.
#15260516
XogGyux wrote:
1) Kim Jong Un in north korea didn't face a revolution either. Does that mean he is good or his people love him?


2) In other words. You did it, so then its ok :lol: .


3) Cuba is harming its own citizens, that is the real problem here.

4) Sure, since cuba is so rich in female inventors, then you should not have any trouble listing a few dozen inventions that cuban women have done in the past two decades. Go ahead, I am waiting for your answer.



1) Whataboutism isn't going to help you, it's an admission I am correct, and you are not.

2) Hell, no. I was simply pointing out you were wrong (again).

3) That's charming, but ridiculous. We do a lot that harms our citizens that aren't rich.

4) I didn't say that, try to focus.
#15260517
Rich wrote:
We didn't install the Shah that is simply another Marxist lie. We may have put our finger on the scale but Mosaddegh was no paragon of democracy and the coup had widespread support inside Iran. The current Muslim terrorist regime certainly has grounds to complain. The Shia r3ligous establishment supported Mosaddegh's overthrow.





"On Aug. 19, 2013, the CIA publicly admitted for the first time its involvement in the 1953 coup against Iran's elected Prime Minister Mohammad Mossadegh.

Mohammad Mossadegh was a beloved figure in Iran. During his tenure, he introduced a range of social and economic policies, the most significant being the nationalization of the Iranian oil industry. Great Britain had controlled Iran's oil for decades through the Anglo-Iranian Oil Co. After months of talks the prime minister broke off negotiations and denied the British any further involvement in Iran's oil industry. Britain then appealed to the United States for help, which eventually led the CIA to orchestrate the overthrow of Mossadegh and restore power to Mohammad Reza Pahlavi, the last Shah of Iran."
https://www.npr.org/2019/01/31/690363402/how-the-cia-overthrew-irans-democracy-in-four-days

Classic 500 pound gorilla stomping a monkey into submission.

Your sources suck dead moose reproductive members...
#15260519
late wrote:1) Whataboutism isn't going to help you, it's an admission I am correct, and you are not.

2) Hell, no. I was simply pointing out you were wrong (again).

3) That's charming, but ridiculous. We do a lot that harms our citizens that aren't rich.

4) I didn't say that, try to focus.

No, you are not correct. You are, in fact, wrong.

You can delude yourself in your own thoughts, but it will remain a fantasy.
There is a reason why thousands of cubans have made a near-suicide journey across the waters of the atlantic ocean and gulf sea currents. Thousands have drown, perished. This is not much different from north korean deserters that risk being shot or blown up by a land mine trying to escape north korea.
Cuba has used its children to perform unpaid hard labor in farms and uses sends its doctors as slave labor to other countries. This is not a charitable thing... they don't send the doctors and their wives/children.... nononono the family stays in cuba as an assurance that the doctor is not going to defect.
The goverment money... that is prioritized for tourists, for foreigners. If cuba will invest 1million, it will do so in hotels and restaurants and monuments, parks, beaches... It does not go to schools which are crumbling with overflown septic drains, poop filled toilets, falling roofs.
If you believe the crap propaganda that comes from that country... is because 1 of two reasons. Either you want to believe it or because you are a fool. The evidence is quite clear. Cuba is an oppressive goverment, a shit goverment, a dictatorship.
#15260523
XogGyux wrote:
No, you are not correct. You are, in fact, wrong.



I was wondering when we would get to this point...

The USSR supported Cuba during the Cold War, it was a different place back then. When the Soviet system died, so did the support Cuba received. Without that help, the damage we inflict on Cuba made things worse.

You've been wrong again and again on the particulars.

But to go back to where this started, normalising relations with Cuba makes sense.
#15260530
late wrote:I was wondering when we would get to this point...

The USSR supported Cuba during the Cold War, it was a different place back then. When the Soviet system died, so did the support Cuba received. Without that help, the damage we inflict on Cuba made things worse.

You've been wrong again and again on the particulars.

But to go back to where this started, normalising relations with Cuba makes sense.

So you think that this successful country can only work if subsidized by USSR? Did you forget why the USSR collapsed? Did you forget the massive poverty and inequality specially in the countryside of the USSR. Tell me, how many former USSR countries are begging to have the USSR back?
This is utter nonsense.
Cuba didn't work even when the USSR existed. They just managed to mask the utter dysfunction by pumping some resources. They allowed the country to atrophy all industry and rely mostly on sugar.
Normalizing the relations with Cuba does make sense, except it takes 2 to tango and Cuba is not a "normal" country. You cannot "normalize" something with a very abnormal country. Certainly, there is little political appetite for that.
Maybe with the clean energy revolution, we might get some renewed interest in the Nickel and Cobalt deposits of Cuba, which are rather large. But even that is a leap. We love oil and that has not been enough to break the animosity with Venezuela and Iran. If the next president is a republican, you can very well forget about normalizing anything with cuba for the next decade or two, thats for sure. And this is precisely the reason why it is so important for Cuba itself to make the changes it needs to integrate into the world. The world will not accommodate to fit cuba... cuba is nothing but a speck. Cuba needs to be the one to change, and it needs to do so because it has been a failure, a failure 60 years in the making. Wake up!
#15260540
late wrote:You keep getting things backwards. I am pointing out where you got it wrong, and why Cuba is that way.

No, not at all.

Dude. This is pathetic..
Cuba is a great country, but we shouldn't compare to europe, the US or Scandinavia... Better to compare to latin american country, and not the better latin american countries, just the shitty ones.
Cuba was a great country, but only when supported by the USSR...
Cuba is a great country, but people risk drowning to leave the country en masse but I never heard of an american making up an improvised boat to escape to Cuba.
Cuba is such a great country that it puts its children to perform hard labour in the country.
Cuba is such a great country that when it sends its doctors to venezuela, they make sure to keep the doctor's family in the island to make sure the doctor does not defect.

Cuba was never able to overcome the corruption of the USSR states. The obsession with lying to pretend everything is OK. The obsession with inflating the numbers that makes them look better and deflates those that make them look worse. The pretend-for-the-picture smile. Your fanatism for extremism is blinding you to the sad reality.
#15260554
XogGyux wrote:
Your fanatism

for extremism

is blinding you to the sad reality.



Love it, it's spelled fanaticism.

I'm a Progressive, we oppose extremists.

Hardly, you don't know the history. I was trying to explain it to you, but as I pointed out before, it's beyond your ken.

My point is that we should normalise relations, like we did with China.
#15260571
Rancid wrote:Whatever happened to Elian anyway?

I remember getting teared gassed when I went out with a friend to take pictures of the protesting (with light rioting).

He is back in cuba. I have seen a couple of interviews of him. Seems like he understands how he ended up in the situation that he is and has accepted it but has interest in coming to the US. What a shocker.
I'm a Progressive, we oppose extremists.

Really? Does not appear that way.

Hardly, you don't know the history. I was trying to explain it to you, but as I pointed out before, it's beyond your ken.

First, you are wrong. But even if you were right, that would be irrelevant, you don't need to know a ounce of history to realize cuba is a failure today, and it is.

My point is that we should normalise relations, like we did with China.

I already told you I have no issues with the normalization of the relationship with Cuba. But you seem to think this is a US problem, and it isen't. Cuba is the abnormal country in this situation. Normally someone would say something along the lines of "we just need to meet somewhere in the middle" but Cuba needs to do far more than meet in the middle, because Cuba is far lost in its delusion, not unlike you. You want to normalize? Fine, I have no objections with that... go convince the Cuban government to normalize, to finally allow for a democratization of the country, to stop prosecuting political objectors, to stop using its people as slave. There is nothing normal about Cuba, but you want to have a normal relationship with it. If you want a Ford A to drive as a "normal" car, you can't because it is not a "normal car". Same issue with Cuba.
#15260575
XogGyux wrote:Cuba didn't work even when the USSR existed. They just managed to mask the utter dysfunction by pumping some resources.


You mean like Qualitative Easing (QE)? Is this always a sign of upcoming failure?

They allowed the country to atrophy all industry and rely mostly on sugar.

Capîtalism had done the exact same thing, with even less economic diversity. Hundreds of thousands of Cuban guajiros and guajiras starved to death after the Stock Market crash in the last 20s. Under CAPITALISM.


...Cuba is not a "normal" country. You cannot "normalize" something with a very abnormal country...
Maybe with the clean energy revolution, we might get some renewed interest in the Nickel and Cobalt deposits of Cuba, which are rather larg... The world will not accommodate to fit cuba... cuba is nothing but a speck. Cuba needs to be the one to change, and it needs to do so because it has been a failure, a failure 60 years in the making. Wake up!

It seems like your hatred for Cubans, and your love of strategic mineral resources... make you a strange character in discussing the advantages and disadvantages of various social systems and possible economic changes the entire world has to make.

Maybe you didn't notice but the USA is at war with everyone and its economy is collapsing. So to point fingers at alternative systems and say "You are crap!" while professing your love of oil and mineral deposits... makes you look unauthentic, not credible, and somewhat uninformed.

Oh yeah, but you "lived in Cuba" at some point, right? My barber is from Washington DC originally, but doesn't understand the functions of the executive, legislative and judiciary branches of government, nor does he understand the technology that went into constructing its metro system. Strange, huh? Being from Washington should make him an authority on these matters, right hometown-guy who hates his old hometown?
#15260586
QatzelOk wrote:It seems like your hatred for Cubans, and your love of strategic mineral resources... make you a strange character in discussing the advantages and disadvantages of various social systems and possible economic changes the entire world has to make.

And you'd be naive if you think this sort of thing doesn't matter. Do you think the USSR helped Cuba out of the goodness of its heart? No! They had a strategic interest in having a foothold on this side of the world, of having a proximity stepstone to its major geopolitical adversary. Remember the Cuban Missile crisis? The strategic resource was not a mineral... but rather a geographic proximity to its adversary. And over the years the Cuban government has exploited its sugar cane and tobacco resources. You are naive if you think these kinds of things don't matter. You cannot hope to even begin to understand a problem if you anchor yourself to ignoring reality. No reasonable solution will ever come when the reality is ignored.

Maybe you didn't notice but the USA is at war with everyone and its economy is collapsing.

Really? The US economy is collapsing.... :lol: Then maybe it is time for you to build a raft and escape to Cuba. Tik tok, the clock is tikking... its time for you to row your way to cuba.

Oh yeah, but you "lived in Cuba" at some point, right? My barber is from Washington DC originally, but doesn't understand the functions of the executive, legislative and judiciary branches of government, nor does he understand the technology that went into constructing its metro system. Strange, huh? Being from Washington should make him an authority on these matters, right hometown-guy who hates his old hometown?

Nonsense. Your barber from Washington maybe does not have a granular understanding of the specifics of governance or politics. But if you come to him claiming that dragons live in the Jefferson memorial, or that the hospitals are without electrical power all the time and the roofs are falling, or that the Washington schools are crumbling and the children are being snatched and sent to farm corn... I am sure he will be able to tell you if that is accurate or not :lol: Your comparison is shit. I am not here claiming to know specific about the Cuban National Assembly or the Judicial system of cuba or any of that nonsense that you are trying now... As usual, this is a red herring. I am plainly stating the reality under which the average cuban lives. Your Washington friend can certainly explain to you how the average Washingtonian lives... what they use for transport, how often they lose power, what they can buy/eat with their salaries, what sort of social support network they might have, etc.

And like usual... again you fail to share the list of all the female inventors that you were talking about.
You are more interested in the propaganda than anything else.
#15260614
XogGyux wrote:...or that the Washington schools are crumbling and the children are being snatched and sent to farm corn... I am sure he will be able to tell you if that is accurate or not ...

And like usual... again you fail to share the list of all the female inventors that you were talking about.
You are more interested in the propaganda than anything else.

I will gladly google and then list all the inventions of Cuban women, but only after you've listed the inventions of all the Cubans living in Miami. I'm sure it's extensive.

I quoted statistics regarding the percentage of female inventors in medicine-sovereign Cuba, not my own opinion or "take" on this very abstract stat.

Propaganda would be you, repeating the same boring talking points over and over with NO new understanding or information to help guide the world's people. Like a hasbara troll, you just attack and hate Cuba using the same predetermined set of ex-pat talking points in order to manipulate your readers... so that you can buy another SUV.

We are facing a crash of epic proportions in the world, and your kind of "local self-interested" propaganda is what destroyed it in the first place.

Being from Cuba, as you claim to be, gives you zero extra knowledge of what systems of governance will help mankind survive in the future. The form of goverance that the rich West is currently under (mafia-run world-pillagers) is unsusatainable and heading for a serious crash.

Your "single-person crusade" and narrow-mindedness in observing alternative social models provides nothing to anyone.

Cuba is nowhere near being the poorest country in the Western hemisphere, and its people live longer than Americans, have more free time than Americans, and consume about one twentieth of the unrenewable resources per capita. The USA is a major failure as far as governance and systems go.

But you have an SUV, and that is all you can notice.
#15260623
wat0n wrote:Image

How many patents were filed in each country? What's the rate per 100k inhabitants?


Patents per million population, Cuba and neighbors of Cuba:

Jamaica: 3.3
Venezuela: 3.2
Cuba: 3.0
Dom. Rep.: 1.0
Honduras: 0.9
El Salvador: 0.6
Guatemala: 0.4
Haiti: 0.2
Nicaragua: 0.1

And remember, that the communist-socialist countries on the list (Cuba, Venezuela, Nicaragua) are less likely to patent useless techno-gadgets as these societies are far less geared to hucksterism. Cuba is most famous for its local medicines, many of which are based on plants and other natural sources.


In 2020, Cubans applied for 33 patents. (pop: 11 million people)
(53% of the applicants were women!)

Brazil applied for 5,280 the same year (pop:204 million)
Mexico applied for 1,132 (pop 127 million)
Argentina applied for 930 (pop 43 million)
Chile applied for 372 (pop 18 million)
Columbia applied for 369 (pop 48 million)
Peru applied for 125 (pop 33 million)
Venezuela applied for 96 (pop 30 million)
Bolivia applied for 58 (pop 11 million)
Ecuador applied for 33 (pop 16 million)
Uruguay applied for 23 (pop 3 million)
Panama applied for 22 (pop 4 million)
Paraguay applied for 14 (pop 7 million)
Costa Rica applied for 12 (pop 5 million)
Dominican Republic applied for 10 (pop 10 million)
Jamaica applied for 10 (pop 3 million)
Honduras applied for 8 (pop 9 million)
Guatamala applied for 7 (pop 16 million)
El Salvador applied for 4 (pop 7 million)
Haiti applied for 2 (pop 11 million)
Nicaragua applied for 1 (pop 7 million)


https://www.indexmundi.com/facts/indica ... D/rankings
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_L ... population
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