Is Real Change Through the Current System Possible? - Politics Forum.org | PoFo

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#14962742
So we had Trump for 2 years now, we see the gridlock we are entering now with idiots voting in more idiots at the ballot box. It makes me wonder, is real change actually possible in the current system? I know it is a cliche by this point saying "change" but here what I mean by it.

1) Is changing the moral degradation.
2) Restoring nationalism and culture again.
3) Changing the dynamic of economy, getting rid of the corporate/big business make up of the society.

These are some of the changes that are important for me. Seeing Trump play out in politics of the modern system makes me realize that perhaps this system has become too Byzantine to have any meaningful alteration of course.

And for crying out laud USA still does not have universal healthcare.
#14962765
No. The answer is no.

We live in a corporate oligarchy. It's main instrument is the Republican Party. It's secondary instrument is the Democratic Party. The Democratic Party is funded as a loss-leader. It's job is to guarantee the status quo, so that no New Deal style economic changes can be introduced. As long as they continue to succeed in this task, they will be generously funded in perpetuity.

The Republican Party exists to cut taxes and regulations on business, and appoint pro-corporate judges to the federal bench (vetted through the Federalist Society).

Therefore you won't get any version of single-payer healthcare, nor will the influence of corporations and the Deep State be reduced.

Even a total electoral sea change (like in 1932) was only good for two decades before the retrenchment set in.

If you're okay with feudalism, it won't be too bad. Just be sure and work your way into the manager class - you don't want to be a serf.
#14962774
I'm not a communist and I do not see this primary a class struggle against capitalism. I definitely do see that we need to establish a balanced and just society because the way things are going is self destructive in its course. Europe and the west in general is killing off itself slowly. Industrialist, corporatist and the whole system that has come to be after industrialization is not conductive to good stable civilized life. We need to restructure the way it is organized so to fulfill the technological progress but also good life for people.

The way the economic system is today produces misery for many people even though it has brought tremendous benefits as well. We need to find a way to keep the good and get rid of the bad. Mostly it seems to be cause by simple greed for profit that come out of industrial and financial sectors the economy, mingled together with governments that have become in cahoots with them.

Trump is an experiment for me as to see how much can actually be changed through the system. What has been discovered is that the establishment has a lot of weapons in their arsenal that they can dispose that make me question if going through the system is really a viable option anymore. What has happened that is most troubling is that it seems the secret security services have become the henchman of the establishment and have abandoned their function as protectors of law and order and the people. So they have basically become no different then the KGB of Soviet Union and just another political instrument of the establishment to oppress the public.
Last edited by Albert on 13 Nov 2018 04:31, edited 2 times in total.
#14962775
https://www.marxists.org/reference/subject/philosophy/works/ot/zizek1.htm
The ultimate answer to the reproach that the radical Left proposals are utopian should thus be that, today, the true utopia is the belief that the present liberal-democratic capitalist consensus could go on indefinitely, without radical changes. We are thus back at the old ‘68 motto “Soyons realistes, demandons l'impossible!": in order to be truly a “realist,” one must consider breaking out of the constraints of what appears “possible” (or, as we usually out it, “feasible”).
#14962777
This question assumes we know and understand the values of what real change means. Real change is subjective to the interest groups in mind. The KKK has one set of real change as does the social justice worriers and lobbyist groups. This is mainly the reason you don't see significant progress in the West as we're far too concerned with the interests of special interest groups as opposed to making change for the society as a whole. This will most likely not happen anytime soon as the West has given up on its archaic belief in countries and is moving towards an even more archaic belief in groups controlling society instead of a country making decisions. It's all being hidden within the realm of "democracy" and "freedom" that only exists if you're group has been sanctioned by the ruling class.
#14962779
KKK and such right-wing groups seem to be more of reactionary group that want to preserve the European Anglo (white) heritage of USA. I doubt they want to restructure the economy and political system like Communist do.

As for SJW they are mostly concerned with social change that is driven by Bohemian moral degeneracy and anti-Christian sentiments. This is their only forward thinking. Most of them do not concern themselves with serious political and economic change.

People that have dared to think to radically change the economic system and try to remedy the disbalance that industrialization has brought are the Communist. There has not been any real serious attempt after. Fascist and Nazis were more concerned with nationalism and anti-globalism. Their economic thinking goes as far as authoritarian state-capitalism. Which is basically keeping everything as is but with heavy state interventionism, that is what it seems the Nazis did in Germany anyways. How long would have that status quo lasted I do not know.

Edit: I believe Communism is not the answer, we need to try to make another attempt at restructuring the society that will not lead to self destruction at least in short term. At least a system that can last us a couple of hundred years without going into some sort of severe economic crisis and social upheaval.

I definitely think there is a lot to learn from Communism, what has worked can be taken, but it has proven itself not to be the way forward.
#14962867
As long as you keep thinking in economic terms, the capitalists have you stymied. You can’t create change based upon what they control. Forget economics and fight for something more. A future. Quit listening to those who tell you something will hurt you economically, so you can’t do it. They are obviously tools of the enemy whether they know it or not.
#14964233
As I have already said ---
It would take tens of millions of Progressive Americans to demonstrate in the streets of their local town or city once a month for the next 2 years.
They are doing this for 3 reasons.
1] To meet in the streets like minded people and this shows them that their strength is growing over time.
2] To show the Democratic Party leaders that there are 80 million voters who will come out and vote in the primaries to replace them.
3] Then they either take over the Dems Party or they take over the Green Party. Which one depends on how the wind is blowing in the spring of 2020.
BTW --- don't trust any Dem, when in doubt replace.

Sitting at home in this crisis and expecting a different result is insanity.
Humanity does not have the time for the Progressives to get their act together. We need to do this in the next 2 years.
The coming climate crisis is not going to wait. It is --- Now or never.
Get off your ass and get out there and make your desires known.

I would meet you there but I live on the other side of the world now.
I'm dying. I have not that much longer to live. You young and younger voters are going to have to do this. It is up to you.
Other generations have come forward and done what needed to be done. This is your generation's challenge. Then AGW.
I admit it, I failed. Starting in 1972 I groked the climate crisis. Nobody listened to me.
. . All my life I have voted for (who I thought were) the Progressive candidates. In Every election.
. . As I sat at home and just voted every 2 years, the nation moved further to the right. I failed, I hope you don't.
#14964246
Great plan if you think our decisions should be made through a show of force rather than reasoned argument. We are currently making a choice how we think the world should be. None of us knows if we are ‘right’. It is not something we should fight over, but a plan we should carefully analyze.
#14964256
Albert wrote: It makes me wonder, is real change actually possible in the current system? I know it is a cliche by this point saying "change" but here what I mean by it.

1) Is changing the moral degradation.
2) Restoring nationalism and culture again.
3) Changing the dynamic of economy, getting rid of the corporate/big business make up of the society.

These are some of the changes that are important for me. Seeing Trump play out in politics of the modern system makes me realize that perhaps this system has become too Byzantine to have any meaningful alteration of course.

And for crying out laud USA still does not have universal healthcare.


When attitudes change, social constructs and the political system will also change. Unfortunately Americans accept their democracy without question and as such big business pay for their interests to be fulfilled by American gullibleness.

Nonetheless if you look at your three criterias of change (four including healthcare), lets analysis them objectively.

-1, morals are subjective to someone's opinions and as such cannot change the dynamic of society in how people can think but will change the culture when the collective views change. That isn't moral degration but moral evolution. However that is not what I think you are trying to address as you are confusing morals with a code of ethics. If what you are asking for is the return of Christian ethics in American society then you could argue that America is just as religious today as it was yesterday but the divide of what message people will take from the Bible will depend on their personal economic conditions. And this divide has been created by the class divide issue we see today where Americas political elite are more interested in protecting big business who fund the campaigns of both the two parties in America over that of the interest of mass populous as a whole. Trump and his policies will only extend this problem of ethics degration rather than resolve it as business people like him will always maintain their own interests over that of the collective. So to answer your question on this point on whether change is possible in todays current system I would say yes, but not with Trump.

-2, People don't abandon their culture. But in a society of multi nationals you will have many cultures within society. As long as your rights are not infringed what does it matter what your neighbour does? And America is a nation founded on immigrants and their constitution respects all cultures and enshrines their rights. If you are asking for suppression of your views over that of others (totalitarianism) then I would say most people would not ask for change here and this would only happen when far right popularism becomes more prominent than democracy - so unlikely any time soon.

-3, The current Capitalist model produces big business as it is a system based on profit over fairness. To stop this dynamic (and end big business) another economic model needs to replace Capitalism. This seems only likely to change when the global Capitalist model destroys itself and governments are forced to look at new ways for society to function and trade. Until then it is the same old story. Those with money hold the power and only when money is worthless will the power struggle equalise.

-4, American healthcare. America are being tricked into thinking universal healthcare by taxation is bad and that is being maintained by Trump propaganda. Until America understand the benefits of universal healthcare for all and abandon the lies they are being given by their politicians they will be stuck with their healthcare system (which is bollocks).
#14964261
@B0ycey
I think you expressed some very objective views until you got to healthcare. As soon as you decide something is a ‘right’, you give up all objectivity. It is simply a service some people provide to others. How we decide how these providers should be paid for their service has nothing to do with ‘rights’. It is a social and economic decision.
#14964266
One Degree wrote:I think you expressed some very objective views until you got to healthcare. As soon as you decide something is a ‘right’, you give up all objectivity. It is simply a service some people provide to others. How we decide how these providers should be paid for their service has nothing to do with ‘rights’. It is a social and economic decision.


For all I care America can keep their system. But I was addressing change. Are you telling me a system where poor health will bankrupt a family is better than a system based on taxation? And which one is fairer? Sure it is opinion on what system is better but it is objective to say change can only occur when attitudes change and people ignore propaganda from politicians. I can almost guarantee that if America had social care over insurance they would never look back by the fact I know in my country my economic status will not change by my health detoriating.
#14964270
B0ycey wrote:For all I care America can keep their system. But I was addressing change. Are you telling me a system where poor health will bankrupt a family is better than a system based on taxation? And which one is fairer? Sure it is opinion on what system is better but it is objective to say change can only occur when attitudes change and people ignore propaganda from politicians. I can almost guarantee that if America had social care over insurance they would never look back by the fact I know in my country my economic status will not change by my health detoriating.


I honestly don’t know the answer. I do know our health care was tremendously cheaper before the federal government got involved. My current choice is returning to ‘community health care solutions’.
#14964281
One Degree wrote:Great plan if you think our decisions should be made through a show of force rather than reasoned argument. We are currently making a choice how we think the world should be. None of us knows if we are ‘right’. It is not something we should fight over, but a plan we should carefully analyze.

With all due respect [that you have earned].
Do you think that anything will get done in America for the next many years through reasoned argument?
I would say there is a 1% chance that 1 thing would get done that way.
Every other thing that gets done will be by one side or the other forcing it through in a constitutional way. And usually not in a traditionally fair and proper way. The Repuds cheat every chance they can.
The current system assumes that both sides are honorable men/women. This is no longer the case.
While the Repus gloat about how they make liberals leak tears, climate change is rushing toward a crisis. You deny it. Reality doesn't care if you grok it or not. It will do its thing no matter what you think.
If Progressives lose this fight, I hope every one of you Repuds here lives to be 100 years old or dies as a result of climate change before that. I want you to have to face the magnitude of the error you are making before you die.
#14964285
Steve_American wrote:With all due respect [that you have earned].
Do you think that anything will get done in America for the next many years through reasoned argument?
I would say there is a 1% chance that 1 thing would get done that way.
Every other thing that gets done will be by one side or the other forcing it through in a constitutional way. And usually not in a traditionally fair and proper way. The Repuds cheat every chance they can.
The current system assumes that both sides are honorable men/women. This is no longer the case.
While the Repus gloat about how they make liberals leak tears, climate change is rushing toward a crisis. You deny it. Reality doesn't care if you grok it or not. It will do its thing no matter what you think.
If Progressives lose this fight, I hope every one of you Repuds here lives to be 100 years old or dies as a result of climate change before that. I want you to have to face the magnitude of the error you are making before you die.


Very reasonable until you got to the bolded part. No one is suggesting anything that will make a difference in climate change. They won’t even discuss the major factors. You have swallowed propaganda. How can you believe people who fly to climate conferences? Democrats are total hypocrites on the issue.
When they talk about the effects of jet travel, international trade, and the military, I will take them seriously.
#14964298
One Degree wrote:Very reasonable until you got to the bolded part. No one is suggesting anything that will make a difference in climate change. They won’t even discuss the major factors. You have swallowed propaganda. How can you believe people who fly to climate conferences? Democrats are total hypocrites on the issue.
When they talk about the effects of jet travel, international trade, and the military, I will take them seriously.

Please, clarify the part you bolded.
"No one" is a pretty inclusive term.
I admit that not many American politicians that you see talk about AGW.
But, I did saw Progressives there. Progressives do talk about AGW.
You should know that I think that Repud politicians are scum and that Dem politicians have sold out the the Corps.
OTOH, did you intend to include all humans on earth, or just the leaders.
Climate scientists are calling for more than you seem the think.
Calif. has passed some laws to combat AGW.
So, I think you are just totally wrong with your No one comment.
#14964302
Term limits could go a long ways in accomplishing change. The only crisis in the US is the left refuses to accept losing and blames anything and everything on anybody but their own failures. They would rather destroy the country and play the victim than figuring out how to legislate and govern within the the established rules in our system.
#14964303
Steve_American wrote:[b]
Please, clarify the part you bolded.
"No one" is a pretty inclusive term.
I admit that not many American politicians that you see talk about AGW.
But, I did saw Progressives there. Progressives do talk about AGW.
You should know that I think that Repud politicians are scum and that Dem politicians have sold out the the Corps.
OTOH, did you intend to include all humans on earth, or just the leaders.
Climate scientists are calling for more than you seem the think.
Calif. has passed some laws to combat AGW.
So, I think you are just totally wrong with your No one comment.


Yes, I was referring to politicians and other elites. Especially Democrats. Liberal population centers are transportation hubs. They support global trade because it benefits their city. They are not about to support anything that reduces air transport or shipping. They are the problem pretending to support a solution. This is why their solutions always involve what the common person must do or why he should pay more.
I learned my lesson decades ago when turning my thermostat down to 68 justified power companies charging higher rates according to the politicians.
Fighting climate change is like fighting wars to them. Fine if they aren’t the ones expected to do the fighting.

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