[SolarCross]

Whether the shop refuses sale is irrelevant. It is compelled to accept sterling as payment when it does. It doesn't have to except bitcoin. So guess what? You're wrong again.

Cranky perverted internet clown can't read. Colour me surprised.

If your local corner shop decided to only accept payments in Pokémon cards that would be within their right too.

[B0ycey]

Cranky perverted internet clown can't read. Colour me surprised.

You quote is in reference to exchange not payment. Hence your club card points are not taxable. Currency is an IOU and on payment a shop must accept sterling not Bitcoin.

[ingliz]

If a community recognizes the money and issue it

According to you, the community does not issue the scrip.

Anyone can issue currency in an anarchist society

Historically, this has caused problems for workers (See 'Truck Acts' and debt bondage).

[Palmyrene]

What gives currency authority without authority? Who is liable of the debt of an IOU? Anarchy can only work in an exchange economy.

Currency has value because recognize it's value. In prisons cigars are used as currency. In a small island on the Pacific, giant stone wheels are used as a currency. An authority doesn't enforce this, people recognize and agree to it's value.

An anarchist society would work the same way. The people who issue the currency would recognize it's value because they have vested interest in maintaining said value because they're the ones who issue the currency.

[Palmyrene]

According to you, the community does not issue the scrip.

Anyone can issue currency in an anarchist society

Communities are also "anyone". There could be community wide currencies, economic sector based currencies, or even a currency only for friends existing all simultaneously.

Historically, this has caused problems for workers (See 'Truck Acts' and debt bondage).

Historically this has worked well. See demurrage currency and American colonial land banks or Josiah Warren's time banks.

[B0ycey]

Currency has value because recognize it's value. In prisons cigars are used as currency. In a small island on the Pacific, giant stone wheels are used as a currency. An authority doesn't enforce this, people recognize and agree to it's value.

An anarchist society would work the same way. The people who issue the currency would recognize it's value because they have vested interest in maintaining said value because they're the ones who issue the currency.

I understand that but in essence the currency is worthless. Perhaps I am a romantic of gold standard where currency can be exchanged for the value of gold and fiat currency relies on tax receipts but without an authority if the debtor just refuses to accept his debt, there is nothing to stop him from non payment if he has a greater standing than who he owes.

[Palmyrene]

I understand that but in essence the currency is worthless. Perhaps I am a romantic of gold standard where currency can be exchanged for the value of gold and fiat currency relies on tax receipts but without an authority if the debtor just refuses to accept his debt, there is nothing to stop him from non payment if he has a greater standing than who he owes.

The currency is backed by the assests of the issuers. People wouldn't be able to withdraw more than they can repay.

[Zionist Nationalist]

How will an anarchist society prevent people from exploiting each other?
there will always be people who will seek for ways to have benefits at the expense of others

if everybody have the same amount of food and resources there will be people who either would form large groups to take stuff away from others by force
or some people will just go and steal and since you wont have a police it will become the norm since no big organization like the police or FBI will search for the thieves
this is the human nature there will always be such people and you cant educate them all to behave nice since you wont have universal education systems like we have today none will give a fuck if you care about morals than all morals will go down the drain in an anarchic society
how will you prevent a total anarchy if all world governments stop function?

[ingliz]

Historically this has worked well.

Not for the proletariat (See 'Truck Acts' and debt bondage).

[B0ycey]

The currency is backed by the assests of the issuers. People wouldn't be able to withdraw more than they can repay.

If that is the case just exchange assets. See that can work. Currency seems to rely on order and without authority I cannot see how it can be enforced.

[Palmyrene]

How will an anarchist society prevent people from exploiting each other?
there will always be people who will seek for ways to have benefits at the expense of others

By creating systems and conditions in which exploitation is not possible and all parties have equitable exchange. For example, there would be no bosses or managers so workers would organize by themselves.

if everybody have the same amount of food and resources there will be people who either would form large groups to take stuff away from others by force

I'm sure, if other anarchist institutions are set up properly, they won't have much success. I doubt people would even do that because all their basic needs would already be met. Why would you put in effort to get more of what you already have and get consistently? Why would steal medicine if you already get medicine for free whenever you're sick?

or some people will just go and steal and since you wont have a police it will become the norm since no big organization like the police or FBI will search for the thieves

Why would steal if all goods are readily available to you? Sure people might steal but I doubt that would be the norm. Look, do rich people steal and by steal I mean shoplift or whatever? No, they don't. Because they already have all their basic needs met. Do you know why poor people or Palestinians steal food? So they can feed themselves because their needs aren't being met.

this is the human nature there will always be such people and you cant educate them all to behave nice since you wont have universal education systems like we have today none will give a fuck if you care about morals than all morals will go down the drain in an anarchic society
how will you prevent a total anarchy if all world governments stop function?

People are selfish and operate on their needs or wants. If those basic needs or wants ars fulfilled people will still operate selfishly but they won't steal or kill unnecessarily. If you're selfish why would put in the effort to kill someone to get something you can get for free?

[Palmyrene]

If that is the case just exchange assets. See that can work. Currency seems to rely on order and without authority I cannot see how it can be enforced.

Why would you exchange your house as currency? Or your belongings? Or your bed?

[B0ycey]

Why would you exchange your house as currency? Or your belongings? Or your bed?

Why exchange currency? Or accept it without a system that has rules (order)? An asset has some worth as it has function. A piece of paper with writing and perhaps a pretty picture is about as worthy as one sheet of toilet paper. Although who would issue this service anyway?

[Palmyrene]

Why exchange currency? Or accept it without a system that has rules (order)? An asset has some worth as it has function. A piece of paper with writing and perhaps a pretty picture is about as worthy as one sheet of toilet paper. Although who would issue this service anyway?

Currency being issued depends on local conditions. Sometimes it would be preferable to just forego currency and produce/coordinate everything directly like some Anarcho-communists propose. Other times currencies might be helpful in cases where there is an abundance of goods whose value is not always given.

For example, a town or economic sector which specializes in art or painting may issue currency which may be used to acquire said art and such a currency would have properties which may be specialized towards that kind of exchange.

[B0ycey]

To be honest, your anarchy just sound like classical Communism without the order. Please tell me this isn't something form of hangover from the Spanish civil war in why you won't accept that really to make a society function as well as it does today a structure outside individualism and a degree of community responsibility is required.

[ingliz]

demurrage currency

A crude wealth tax. Pigovian taxes would work just as well and be harder to circumvent.

American colonial land banks

With the exception of two short-lived private land banks, all the banks that actually functioned were public institutions created and operated by the various Colonial governments.

Josiah Warren's time banks

Inadequate as a form of currency and as a market information mechanism. According to Fisher, such a currency "would lead to the kind of distortion of market forces which had crippled Russia's economy."

Why would steal if all goods are readily available to you?

Mansions, Ferraris, a 300 foot private yacht, and 7 nights at the Ritz for everyone. Woo-hoo, sign me up!

[Palmyrene]

@B0ycey

Classical communism does not allow for market exchange and it certainly isn't individualistic. What you're describing and the arguments you make regarding currency is anarcho-communist in nature.

I haven't discussed anything other currency. How can you make assumptions about my full vision of society based on one aspect of it. I wholehardedly suggest you read my responses to other people rather than just your own.

@ingliz

A crude wealth tax. Pigovian taxes would work just as well and be harder to circumvent.

The point isn't to tax wealth. It's create a higher circulation of currency or high velocity of money. This provides many benefits such as stimulating economic activity by encouraging people to spend or invest their money.

With the exception of two short-lived private land banks, all the banks that actually functioned were public institutions created and operated by the various Colonial governments.

Wow it's like you posted the first you found on Google.

I pointed to colonial land banks as an example of a "currency" which used real assets as collateral (in this case land). This is important because that would be what mutualist currency would be backed by.

Who ran the land banks is irrelevant because what matters is something the land banks had no authority over, the possessions of the colonial population.

Inadequate as a form of currency and as a market information mechanism. According to Fisher, such a currency "would lead to the kind of distortion of market forces which had crippled Russia's economy."

You just went to wikipedia, looked up criticisms of time banks and copy pasted them here. Fisher's criticism was based on a particular understanding of time banks rather than how time banks actually historically worked. Specifically, Josiah Warren's time banks were a great success.

Mansions, Ferraris, a 300 foot private yacht, and 7 nights at the Ritz for everyone. Woo-hoo, sign me up!

I highly doubt things like mansions, luxury cars, private yachts, and other products made off of the exploitation of workers would be own as private property or even made at all.

[ingliz]

I highly doubt things like mansions...

I cannot imagine anyone signing up to an anarchy to live like a monk - Man does not live by bread alone.

Who decides what my needs are?

[B0ycey]

@B0ycey

Classical communism does not allow for market exchange and it certainly isn't individualistic. What you're describing and the arguments you make regarding currency is anarcho-communist in nature.

I haven't discussed anything other currency. How can you make assumptions about my full vision of society based on one aspect of it. I wholehardedly suggest you read my responses to other people...

Well I am not going through pages of nonsense just to find a nugget of relevance. Although I seem to remember like ten pages on heirarchy rather than currency on display earlier in this thread btw.

Nonetheless I am not saying classic communism is individualistic as it functions as a collective society and not a individual self interest one that you seem to advocate for from anarchy. My comment was more in reference to the outcome you are trying to achieve rather than the practicality of it or achievement.

As for currency, my arguments for it today was on how it functions rather than an endorsement of it. Personally I would do away with it all together and have a collective society of shared posession rather than have one that requires the use of a product of debt at all.

[Palmyrene]

I cannot imagine anyone signing up to an anarchy to live like a monk - Man does not live by bread alone.

What do you think living in a mansion would be like in an anarchist society if not be living like a monk? You can't hire servants because no one is going to be in dire enough circumstances to degrade themselves like that. You'd be just living by yourself in a large empty house whose rooms you don't even use. That would be waste.

In an anarchist society, cities would be condensed and property would be based on occupancy and use. If you occupy a house and maintain it it's yours. So in an apartment building the tenants would own their apartments instead of a landlord and maintenance, electricity, and other matters would be discussed and dealt with by the tenants themselves who would collectively own the building itself.

Who decides what my needs are?

You do. And then you associate with others who share your interests or needs. If you need a house then associating with a homebuilding association or union to get the resources necessary to build a house or getting a preexisting unused house.

If you need food then associating with an food network or something which delivers food to your doorstep might be a good idea.

If you want to be an artist joining an art league which not only provides you with supplies but also fellow artists to work with and network would be a good idea.

And if there's a need you have that there isn't an association for make one yourself. Advertise it and get the word out there. Talk with the people or actors required to make the project work.

If you want to replace or remove a cities' reliance on oil for electricity with a series of solar panels you can reach out to your local engineer's union or civil engineering syndicate and ask for their cooperation. You could put out a poll to see how many people are interested in such a thing. You can reach out to established scientists and researchers outside of your city who may be interested enough to help out.

Hell if your solar panel initiative succeeds you can expand it to other cities or communities.

@B0ycey

Well I am not going through pages of nonsense just to find a nugget of relevance. Although I seem to remember like ten pages on heirarchy rather than currency on display earlier in this thread btw.

I thought we were friends...

I'm talking about my discussions with ingliz (btw read my response to him on this post).

Nonetheless I am not saying classic communism is individualistic as it functions as a collective society and not on individual self interest one that you seem to advocate for from anarchy. It was more in reference to the outcome you are trying to achieve rather than the practicality of it or achievement.

When I refer to self-interest I'm operating on egoistic philosophy because generally many people here are cynical about human nature and Stirner is very good at subverting that by showing the positive effects of egoism.

Yes, it is a very individualistic take but individuals are what make up a whole. People form communities out of self interest. They do so because a larger congregation of people means they can far more easily meet their needs and because they enjoy each other's company.

Of course you can say that I want to achieve a classless stateless society like classical communists do and there's lots of overlap. Proudhon himself was inspired by Fourier. However there are stark differences in the theory of communists from anarchists. I hope you understand that.

As for currency, my arguments on it it today is on how it functions rather than an endorsement of it. Personally I would do away with it all together and have a collective society of shared posession rather than have one use a product of debt at all.

I understand. There's nothing wrong with that. I was just describing how anarchist currency works but non-market forms work as well. If you would prefer that people deal with one another directly than that is fine.