Unity 2020 - Page 2 - Politics Forum.org | PoFo

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By Rugoz
#15105299
Patrickov wrote:But how is the electoral system supposed to work anyways? I have no problem with small states to keep FPTP to make their voices heard, but I have no idea on how big states should split electoral votes, and where should the boundary/ies between small / (medium / ...) / big states be drawn.

More importantly, I actually think FPTP electoral vote system can be circumvented by some kind of migration scheme.


I meant elections at the state level, not the presidential elections. Americans have the luxury to change things at the state level. When enough states adopt the changes, they should propagate to the federal level at some point.

Local Localist wrote:Everyone talks about scrapping the first past the post system as if it's some universally agreed upon thing, as though they've never heard the argument for the system in the first place. I'm not strongly for or against it, but I'll just put a rationale for the system out there so it's on the table:

1. The first past the post system ensures that more rural localities are able to be heard. If an industrialised nation were not divided into electorates, the urbanites would have complete control over everything, and all the nation's resources would be allocated toward fixing problems in urban areas. Farmers and smaller communities should necessarily have more of a voice than individuals in large cities, as they will be entirely ignored otherwise.

2. New Zealand scrapped the first past the post system in 1996. In their most recent election, neither the reigning National Party nor the Labour Party could gain a parliamentary majority, due to the increased representation of minor parties in the political system. Now, until that point, the National Party had been in coalition with the NZ First Party, so the NZ First voters would've assumed that their vote would go toward that coalition. However, after the election had been held and the votes had been counted, the NZ First Party decided to form a coalition with the Labour Party, meaning that despite the National Party having more seats overall, and the NZ First Party having been voted for with the understanding that they would support the Nationals, the Labour Party formed the government.


No obviously it is not universally agreed upon. That's my point. Everybody hates on the 2 parties, or at least that's the impression I get, but nobody is willing to change the electoral system. Maybe people are too dumb to see the connection.

Regarding point 2. The US has a presidential system, there's no need for government coalitions.
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By Local Localist
#15105303
Rugoz wrote:No obviously it is not universally agreed upon. That's my point. Everybody hates on the 2 parties, or at least that's the impression I get, but nobody is willing to change the electoral system. Maybe people are too dumb to see the connection.


Yeah, I think that just comes from a place of ignorance though. Americans really need to be taught the freedom their political system affords them, in the sense that they've got a multitude of different candidates to choose from with either political party. If anything, they should work on reforming how the parties themselves work, so that it would be harder for establishment Democrats to get rid of people like Bernie Sanders, for instance.
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By Rugoz
#15105309
Local Localist wrote:Yeah, I think that just comes from a place of ignorance though. Americans really need to be taught the freedom their political system affords them, in the sense that they've got a multitude of different candidates to choose from with either political party. If anything, they should work on reforming how the parties themselves work, so that it would be harder for establishment Democrats to get rid of people like Bernie Sanders, for instance.


FPTP doesn't offer a lot of choice, in that regard it's a shit system. You can vote in the primaries, but there you are forced to vote strategically too. Bernie lost because Dems saw a higher probability of winning with Biden. They were probably right.
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By Local Localist
#15105310
Rugoz wrote:FPTP doesn't offer a lot of choice, in that regard it's a shit system. You can vote in the primaries, but there you are forced to vote strategically too. Bernie lost because Dems saw a higher probability of winning with Biden. They were probably right.


Ah, but my argument is that this is a fundamental issue with democracy itself, and will not simply be solved with a change to the voting system. My NZ example was to show that people are not any more adequately represented with proportional representation than they would be otherwise. If the ideas of the Green Party or the Libertarian Party were popular enough, they would be adopted by a candidate in one of the major parties. Biden is the Democratic nominee because the tyranny of the majority dictates that Sanders was not electable. Sanders wouldn't have even gotten to where he was if the public weren't able to elect the leaders of each major party.
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By Rugoz
#15105316
Local Localist wrote:Ah, but my argument is that this is a fundamental issue with democracy itself, and will not simply be solved with a change to the voting system. My NZ example was to show that people are not any more adequately represented with proportional representation than they would be otherwise. If the ideas of the Green Party or the Libertarian Party were popular enough, they would be adopted by a candidate in one of the major parties. Biden is the Democratic nominee because the tyranny of the majority dictates that Sanders was not electable. Sanders wouldn't have even gotten to where he was if the public weren't able to elect the leaders of each major party.


That depends. If you have a powerful third party it can totally screw up representation in a FPTP system. The problem in the US is probably not so much representation but the perception that the 2 parties are entrenched and corrupt. Another system would result in more competition between parties and give people the feeling of choice. It could also make things even more polarized, or less, not sure about that one.
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By Local Localist
#15105317
Rugoz wrote:That depends. If you have a powerful third party it can totally screw up representation in a FPTP system. The problem in the US is probably not so much representation but the perception that the 2 parties are entrenched and corrupt. Another system would result in more competition between parties and give people the feeling of choice. It could also make things even more polarized, or less, not sure about that one.


In New Zealand they still have two major parties, despite their system of proportional representation. Conversely, Canada arguably has four or five major parties, despite not using proportional representation. I think much of the reason minor parties are so small in the US is that they're quite unpopular in comparison to candidates in the Democratic and Republican primaries.
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By Rugoz
#15105322
Local Localist wrote:In New Zealand they still have two major parties, despite their system of proportional representation. Conversely, Canada arguably has four or five major parties, despite not using proportional representation. I think much of the reason minor parties are so small in the US is that they're quite unpopular in comparison to candidates in the Democratic and Republican primaries.


Canada's largest third party is the Bloc Québécois, a regional party presumably similar to the SNP in the UK. The other third party is the NDP with only 24 seats. A party that is small but strong regionally can do well with FPTP, obviously. Still, there's a clear trend towards 2 parties with FPTP.
By Istanbuller
#15105323
The US has a long history of third party candidates effected election results with strong finishes. I will tell you most recent ones.Theodore Roosevelt got %27,39 of popular vote and 88 electoral vote in 1912. George Wallace got %13,53 of popular vote and 46 electoral votes in 1968. Ross Perot got %18,91 of popular vote in 1992.
By Patrickov
#15105388
Rugoz wrote:I meant elections at the state level, not the presidential elections. Americans have the luxury to change things at the state level. When enough states adopt the changes, they should propagate to the federal level at some point.


It ultimately depends on the political environment of a place. If a place is highly polarised then FPTP doesn't hurt. PR works best when most voters are knowledgeable enough.
By ness31
#15131909
Did Twitter really ban the Unity2020 account? :?:
By Patrickov
#15131917
ness31 wrote:Did Twitter really ban the Unity2020 account? :?:


Maybe not.




Read the response. The initiator seems to have said they would pull the plug if they are not making a difference this time.
By ness31
#15131932
I’m genuinely confused. Even if the creators of Unity2020 were delaying their project, why would Twitter suspend their account? It doesn’t sound like the people behind articlesofunity wanted their Twitter account suspended...

meh..
By Patrickov
#15131938
ness31 wrote:I’m genuinely confused. Even if the creators of Unity2020 were delaying their project, why would Twitter suspend their account? It doesn’t sound like the people behind articlesofunity wanted their Twitter account suspended...

meh..


What I said is that Twitter probably did not do anything if the Tweet I shared was factual. The "suspended" message might as well be a computer-generated stock text.
By ness31
#15131944
I suspect the tweet you shared might not be a proper reflection of what transpired, and I’m basing that on a podcast featuring Eric Weinstein who would know first hand what was happening with his brothers ‘baby’.
I was hoping to see if any others had some insights or if a valid reason had been given by Twitter.

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