Understanding the pro-Trumper's (?) - Politics Forum.org | PoFo

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#15119171
The phenomenon of the large number of Americans who are [sometimes vehemently] pro-President of the United States of America Donald Trump has interested me for a long time. I've tried to find a framework -- a way of thinking about them -- that squares with what I know, with what I believe and with what, to me, makes sense. They are my fellow Americans. They're not some alien form of life intent upon the destruction of civilization. They're no more, and no less, stupid and ignorant than I am. Yet, I'm not one of them. The drum beat to which I march is that of secular humanism, if you must know. I fail the litmus test for inclusion into either of our two main political parties.

Things coalesced quite recently thanks to a quote attributed to the late Mahatma Mohandas Gandhi. It goes, 'What you do for me but without me, you do to me.'

From this, the next step was to see the pro-Trump people as a movement. That movement centers on a general feeling that our government is not responsive to them -- to their perceived needs and desires. Given that, President of the United States of America Donald Trump becomes the symbol of the movement, much as the Stars and Stripes is the symbol of our country for the vast majority of us.

Our flag is our flag. It can be faded, tattered and torn, but that doesn't matter. It's our symbol of our nation. Of us.* In a like manner, President of the United States of America Donald Trump can have any number of personal failings. To the neutral eye he can appear faded, tattered, torn. No matter. He remains the symbol of the politically disaffected.

'What you do for me but without me, you do to me.'

[Ed.: This, in turn, can lead to another area of concern; the internal problems of our peculiarly American form of constitutional republic.]

Thank you for taking time to read this. Regards, stay safe 'n well.

* The fortuitous coincidence of 'us' and 'US' is, I should think, not overlooked.
#15119172
This post is garbage. Gah-bage!

The reason I'm saying this is that you appear on this forum every few months, post some shit and disappear. If you are not going to use these forums for actual discussion, and just use it as some sort of blog, then fuck you.

Second, there's no mystery with pro-Trumpers. THe same psycohological mechanism that drive pro-whatevers, is the same shit that drives these people.
#15119185
Hi!

Thanks for the question. The post was intended as a question.

I try to find logic in human affairs. It leads me to conclusions from time to time. But there's a problem. I can't be sure, without bouncing the ideas off others, whether I'm making sense or not. So ... I post the thought(s), seeking responses. Some replies are, shall we say, blunt. Others are reasoned evaluations. I learn more from the latter, I think.

Regards, stay safe 'n well.
#15119217
Torus34 wrote:That movement centers on a general feeling that our government is not responsive to them -- to their perceived needs and desires. Given that, President of the United States of America Donald Trump becomes the symbol of the movement, much as the Stars and Stripes is the symbol of our country for the vast majority of us.


Well yes:

Image

However Trump is not a reformer. His election can only be understood in terms of "lashing out", which I frankly don't have a lot of sympathy for.
#15119221
Hi, Rugoz!

Thanks for the response. I was not aware of the chart you posted. It certainly coincides with my impression of our apprehension of our government over time. That we're in dangerous territory seems quite certain.

I also agree with you about President of the United States of America not being a reformer. As far as I can determine from his statements and actions, he's not armed with structural concepts of what is and what should be. Rather, he's informed by a keen sense of what makes him look good in his own estimation.

Some have learned to manipulate him for their own purposes. Whenever Mister Sean Hannity, Mr. Rush Limbaugh or a similar entertainer can present a 'common sense' idea to him in such a way that he sees it as burnishing his own self image, he'll take the ball and run with it.

I've mentally likened President Trump to a blank slate which doesn't care what's written on it as long as the color of the chalk is acceptable.

Regards, stay safe 'n well.
#15119232
Hi, BOycey.

Yup, there was a bit of musing involved. I wanted to provide a structure -- essentially that those who are adamantly pro-President of the United States of America Donald Trump are neither some form of sub-human or the saviors of our country but rather folks who are essentially the same as me and, by extension, you also. I was seeking a reason why people would set aside the negative aspects of President Trump and continue to support him. How, for example, could self-identified evangelical Christians stay silent with regard to President Trump's history with regard to women.

The conclusion I reached, that the pro-President Donald Trump folks see him not so much as a person but as a banner -- a symbol synonymous with 'MAGA' -- seemed reasonable to me, but I certainly wanted it tested in the court of public opinion. Thus, the post.

Your comments on the correctness of my evaluation are earnestly solicited. In question form, did I make sense? Are there better explanations?

Regards, stay safe 'n well.
#15119235
@Torus34, keep safe and well yourself.

But again no question.

And I have no issue with you basically reaching your own conclusion to understand why people vote for Trump, but there isn't really anywhere in your post that you can analyse and as such how are we to participate here?
#15119237
@BOycey:

How about, for the first rough cut, an exploration of the factors which have resulted in the present situation and movement? Is what we are seeing, as one possible avenue to discuss, the result of problems inherent in the very structure of our constitutional republic form of 'democracy'?
#15119240
Torus34 wrote:@BOycey:

How about, for the first rough cut, an exploration of the factors which have resulted in the present situation and movement? Is what we are seeing, as one possible avenue to discuss, the result of problems inherent in the very structure of our constitutional republic form of 'democracy'?


Now you are just putting down question marks at the end sentences.

To help you out, I think the question should be 'Why do people vote for Donald Trump?' Or perhaps 'Is social problems or democracy the reason for Donald Trump?'
#15119243
B0ycey wrote:Now you are just putting down question marks at the end sentences.

To help you out, I think the question should be 'Why do people vote for Donald Trump?' Or perhaps 'Is social problems or democracy the reason for Donald Trump?'


Great! I'm content with "Why do people vote for President of the United States of America Donald Trump?" Let's go from there.

Regards.
#15119247
Torus34 wrote:Great! I'm content with "Why do people vote for President of the United States of America Donald Trump?" Let's go from there.


My opinion. Four years ago it was because Americans was looking for something new as mainstream politicians wasn't listening to the concerns of ordinary people. And Trump utilised their concerns and magnified it with social media. Or in laymen, the wealth divide has expanded so much that the contradictions of capitalism has resulted in manufacturing being outsourced abroad and that the standard of living is reducing and people want that back. And Trump was the only person who was listening to this and was blaming Mexicans. And today, people who support him would rather defend his lies and his stupidity rather than admit they voted in an idiot and they were duped.
#15119250
B0ycey wrote:My opinion. Four years ago it was because Americans was looking for something new as mainstream politicians wasn't listening to the concerns of ordinary people. And Trump utilised their concerns and magnified it with social media. Or in laymen, the wealth divide has expanded so much that the contradictions of capitalism has resulted in manufacturing being outsourced abroad and that the standard of living is reducing and people want that back. And Trump was the only person who was listening to this and was blaming Mexicans. And today, people who support him would rather defend his lies and his stupidity rather than admit they voted in an idiot and they were duped.


So far, so good. It's possible that President of the United States of America Donald Trump, through the confusion he creates using an apparently limitless supply of new uproars, doesn't even give his supporters time to reflect on what's gone before and analyze it for whether it actually impacts their lives positively. It's difficult to point to the walnut shell hiding the pea when the shells are in constant motion. This may be his particular skill which permits him to retain his loyal base.
#15119252
Torus34 wrote:So far, so good. It's possible that President of the United States of America Donald Trump, through the confusion he creates using an apparently limitless supply of new uproars, doesn't even give his supporters time to reflect on what's gone before and analyze it for whether it actually impacts their lives positively. It's difficult to point to the walnut shell hiding the pea when the shells are in constant motion.


Or is Trump merely a product of a problem that isn't being addressed? That is it doesn't matter that whether he addresses the problem or not - or more importantly that he is actually part of the problem, that fact he was the only person acknowledging the problem to begin with was enough for people to vote for him. Very similar to how the Nazis in Germany got in power.
#15119255
B0ycey wrote:Or is Trump merely a product of a problem that isn't being addressed? That is it doesn't matter that whether he addresses the problem or not - or more importantly that he is actually part of the problem, that fact he was the only person acknowledging the problem to begin with was enough for people to vote for him. Very similar to how the Nazis in Germany got in power.


You've now alluded to something which, quite frankly, scares the bejeepers out of me. Our US republic form of constitutional government is surprisingly fragile when faced by a political party willing to ignore the norms and unwritten firewalls that are part and parcel of its stability. There are a number of examples of democracies which have been converted into single party authoritarian governments in this way. We see it at present in Poland, Hungary and Turkey, to note three.

I'm sorry, but I've got to leave for a while. It's been a pleasure 'chatting' with you.

Best to you and yours.
#15119280
The problem with Americans is that they can't see the forest because of all the trees. That's why you need another perspective. You need an external view distant from your own to arrive at the truth by a triangulation of facts.

Trump is an end-of-empire phenomenon. Trump is a symptom of decay. He attracts the "losers and suckers" (as he puts it) who know that their best days are over. He offers them a beacon of hope to make American great again by any means whatsoever, and if the rest of humanity needs to be nuked to kingdom come, then, so be it.

Problem is, that isn't making America great again. America is a deeply dysfunctional society with domestic problems it's leaders can't even start to address, while the cost of maintaining the empire is escalating and the vassals show no inclination of wanting to foot the bill.

The answers are not to be found in a sociological or psychological analysis; the answers are not to be found in a socialism/capitalism debate as long as Americans studiously avoid the elephant in the room:

The Empire

Get rid of it, get rid of the imperial presidency and introduce a multiparty parliamentary democracy that's not beholden to the oligarchs. If need, be dissolve the Union.

There is no other way.
#15119285
B0ycey wrote:
My opinion. Four years ago it was because Americans was looking for something new as mainstream politicians wasn't listening to the concerns of ordinary people. And Trump utilised their concerns and magnified it with social media. Or in laymen, the wealth divide has expanded so much that the contradictions of capitalism has resulted in manufacturing being outsourced abroad and that the standard of living is reducing and people want that back. And Trump was the only person who was listening to this and was blaming Mexicans. And today, people who support him would rather defend his lies and his stupidity rather than admit they voted in an idiot and they were duped.


This, for the most part.

Atlantis wrote:The problem with Americans


Every single American?
#15119288
Rancid wrote:Every single American?


I don't know every single American.

The problem I described refers to Americans who either explicitly or tacitly approve of Imperial policies.

It is up to "every single American" to decide if s/he belongs into that category. I can't be the judge of that.

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