Fascism and the United States of America. - Page 7 - Politics Forum.org | PoFo

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#15164419
Patrickov wrote:I don't think most of them qualify because for such a long list even nominal recognition of things they have "no power to control" is seen as support. Damned if they do, damned if they don't.

Of course, if the United States could go all Cecil Rhodes and rule them directly like Puerto Rico I am more than welcome.


This is called an “argument from ignorance”.

The problem is you have severe bias against the West and I am your polar opposite.

I know what is bad about NOT having American influence.


Personal attacks are hot an argument.

You have no rebuttal.
#15164742
Pants-of-dog wrote:Personal attacks are hot an argument.


Accurately describing the influence of both your and my standing in the argument is not personal attack.
#15164750
Patrickov wrote:Accurately describing the influence of both your and my standing in the argument is not personal attack.


You do not know me. Do not presume to know my standing or anything else about me.

Since you have no rebuttal to my argument, I will assume you concede the point.
#15164755
Pants-of-dog wrote:I will assume you concede the point.


False statement for two reasons:
1. Concede requires willingness and I have none.
2. You have never been clear on your point. "Capitalism brings Fascism"? "Capitalism brings Dictatorship"? "The US is evil in that it is the single biggest supporter of dictatorships"? Neither of them is true, as I said, but it's you who refuse to concede! You are even so twisted to suggest "Russia is an American-supported dictatorship", but most Americans (including the Democrats) see Russia as their sworn enemies!
#15164757
Patrickov wrote:False statement for two reasons:
1. Concede requires willingness and I have none.
2. You have never been clear on your point. "Capitalism brings Fascism"? "Capitalism brings Dictatorship"? "The US is evil in that it is the single biggest supporter of dictatorships"? Neither of them is true, as I said, but it's you who refuse to concede! You are even so twisted to suggest "Russia is an American-supported dictatorship", but most Americans (including the Democrats) see Russia as their sworn enemies!


Let me know when you have one of the following:

1. A clear and concise argument.
2. Evidence supporting your argument or refuting mine.
3. A logical explanation as to why I am incorrect.

So far, you have not provided any of these in our discussion.
#15164761
Pants-of-dog wrote:Let me know when you have one of the following:

1. A clear and concise argument.
2. Evidence supporting your argument or refuting mine.
3. A logical explanation as to why I am incorrect.

So far, you have not provided any of these in our discussion.


The problem is you don't have an argument or have been deliberating not reasserting it, and accusing others of "not engaging in constructive discussion" when it's you who have been moving goalposts all the time.

Are you not aware that you always make outlandish assumptions (for this thread, that "I concede your point", but what point?) that not only is wrong, but also angers people? I even tried to give some guesses on what your point has been. Why can't you make it clear if you think I have been evading or "I not provided anything of quality"? How can I evade or give anything of quality if you cannot make your point clear?

At least I am very clear on @wat0n point, i.e. dictatorships nowadays are mostly left-wing, and my argument is "I agree with him".
#15164767
Fascism is definitely growing in the United States. The problem is that too many Americans don't know which side it is coming from.

I stand by my words that Obamacare was the most fascist piece of legislation in many, many decades. With Harris Biden in charge, it will just grow from there.

The word's use as an ignorant pejorative is on the decline though. We went from "everyone I don't like is Hitler/fascist" to "everyone I don't like is racist". Now the slam du jour is racist, used for something that offends people, regardless of the origin of perceived offense - today used incorrectly from everything between Piers Morgan to the election laws in Georgia meant to secure the state vote.
#15164769
Patrickov wrote:The problem is you don't have an argument or have been deliberating not reasserting it, and accusing others of "not engaging in constructive discussion" when it's you who have been moving goalposts all the time.

Are you not aware that you always make outlandish assumptions (for this thread, that "I concede your point", but what point?) that not only is wrong, but also angers people? I even tried to give some guesses on what your point has been. Why can't you make it clear if you think I have been evading or "I not provided anything of quality"? How can I evade or give anything of quality if you cannot make your point clear?

At least I am very clear on @wat0n point, i.e. dictatorships nowadays are mostly left-wing, and my argument is "I agree with him".


If your argument is that the number of left wing dictatorships in the world right now is larger than the number of right wing dictatorships, then a simple tally of both sides would confirm that. Please let me know what you find. However, it is clear that this tangent is not relevant to fascism and the USA, which is the topic of this thread.

I can clarify my argument:

The USA is moving towards fascism, and this is happening because the right is slowly becoming more authoritarian in the USA.

There are several factors:

1. There is a continued effort to make leftists seem scary and to make the populace frightened of socialism, which then makes the populace more likely to accept draconian measures to ensure safety. One example of this is how Sanders is described as an extremist, despite the fact that he would be considered quite mainstream in Canada or any Nordic country.

2. There is also a normalising of anti-democratic measures by Republicans. Their acceptance of Trump’s deliberate refusal to submit to congressional oversight is a clear example, as well as their tacit support of his attempts to overturn the election. But it is not simply Trump. There are ongoing attempts to reduce voter turnout and eligibility.

It is also important to note that Trump has campaigned on a platform of white nationalism, and the ongoing efforts to stop people from voting are designed to prevent people of colour from voting. This ethnic nationalism is also a defining trait of fascism.

3. The USA has a long and ongoing history of supporting right wing dictatorships abroad. So, the US populace already has demonstrated tacit support for right wing authoritarianism.

Please let me know if you need any further clarification.
#15166322
Deutschmania wrote:Trump's supporters sure have . Image Image Image Image Image


Regular citizens wearing the flag is not the same as the command in chief. Furthermore, America is not a fascist state. Trump was removed with zero difficulties by the voting public. Meanwhile your people in Venezuela, North Korea, Nicaragua, and China are true fascists.
#15167618
B0ycey wrote:As for Socialism, what is your criteria here? I only ask as I support the Nordic model and America seems to class that as Socialism. But even so, what about teaching people of the ills of capitalism as America and the West has been involved in pretty much all the major wars in the 21st century and China and Russia have not.

What you seem to do is forget that both Capitalism and Socialism are economic models and not political ideologies and as such I cannot blame a free market for what a government does the same way you can't blame national ownership on what the government does either. You can be both Socialist and Democratic for example. Which is different to Fascism that requires a Totalitarian Nationaliatic one party state.


Considering both ideologies deal with whether and to what extent the government should be involved in controlling and/or regulating the economy, neither can be fully separated from politics. Unlike capitalism, which is mostly the absence of government from the free market, socialism requires government control of the market. It is nothing but a political ideology, and claiming otherwise is false. Without politics, there is no socialism.

Your examples of the "Evils of capitalism" are in reality the actions of government, which had nothing to do with capitalism (a point you later seem to concede). China and Russia have been huge players in the major wars of the 20th century, so I don't know where that came from. And not all parties in a war are equally bad. Hitler and the Poles are not on equal footing just because they both fought. Teaching that all war is evil is wrong, and thus we should object to that "lesson".

Finally, while the difference you note between fascism and socialism is one of style not substance, it should be noted that it isn't true either. Fascists often have elections too, with varying degrees of legitimacy. Democracy is a tool, a means to an end, not an end in itself. Not only CAN democracy be misused, and lead to widespread abuses, historically it often does. Greek democracies could simply vote away the rights of the unpopular. "You no longer have a house." Such abuses were so common, that our system was meant to check democracy itself (something the Founders despised), as it frequently leads to the "tyranny of the majority".

Your idea of socialism lacks this basic perspective.
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