China’s aggressive strategy of divide and rule is a historic miscalculation - Page 2 - Politics Forum.org | PoFo

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#15164018
B0ycey wrote:What have we done to suggest China's strategy is a miscalculation?


The miscalculations in my mind is the outward aggression. South China Seas, Taiwan, Hong Kong, as well as manipulation of government in the Maldives & Sri Lanka; Australian trade disputes; and their general debt trap diplomacy (they attempting this with my parents native Dominican Republic). All of these things are not outright military aggression, but they will make it harder for anyone on the planet to want to cooperate with China on anything, even non-military.

Many people say that China has no interest in war. That they only want to focus on what's happening within their borders. However, there are so many data points to the contrary of this idea. For example, I don't see how a military base in Africa is not a military adventure for them. I don't think it's a good idea to assume China will just keep to itself. Especially when they are already clearly trying to bully their neighbors.
Last edited by Rancid on 31 Mar 2021 16:38, edited 2 times in total.
#15164020
B0ycey wrote:What have we done to suggest China's strategy is a miscalculation?


The article does not say what we done in the past but what we are about to do.

The very thing you are trying to tell us not to. Stand together and decouple from China.
#15164028
Rancid wrote:The miscalculations in my mind is the outward aggression. South China Seas, Taiwan, Hong Kong, as well as manipulation of government in the Maldives & Sri Lanka; Australian trade disputes; and their general debt trap diplomacy (they attempting this with my parents native Dominican Republic). All of these things are not outright military aggression, but they will make it harder for anyone on the planet to want to cooperate with China on anything, even non-military.

Many people say that China has no interest in war. That they only want to focus on what's happening within their borders. However, there are so many data points to the contrary of this idea. For example, I don't see how a military base in Africa is not a military adventure for them. I don't think it's a good idea to assume China will just keep to itself. Especially when they are already clearly trying to bully their neighbors.


I see this more in line with the thinkings of a superpower Rancid. Very much like Russia. I don't think they care about the Wests opinions at all to consider it a miscalculation. In fact I would say to give in to the West would be a sign of weakness to them which would be a bigger miscalculation. They also don't do gunboat diplomacy. They don't do needless war. They instead deal with everyone even foes which is why they will continue to deal with the West - even now. But when anyone interferes with their politics they will then do reciprocal actions, like with Australia and they will do that every single time. They also seem to take actions to rectify what they believe is rightfully theirs so justifiable actions in their opinions rather than actions of greed. My words are not a defence of China. These are the actions of all superpowers. Israel only existed due to the Wests strategic interest post WW2 in the ME for example. You think that is different to the south China Seas land grab?

As for HK and Uighurs, what China are doing is assimilating. They want everyone thinking along one party line. You may call that genocide if you like. But they always learn from history. Dynasties fall unless you take action early. Again that is not a defence. I am just explaining their thinking.
#15164030
B0ycey wrote:You may call that genocide if you like. But they always learn from history. Dynasties fall unless you take action early. Again that is not a defence. I am just explaining their thinking.


Would you call it genocide if say Trump suspended all our parliaments in the west, put us all in Guantanamos forcing us to write: "we love Trump forever" until he deemed us sufficient and also sterilised our women en mass?

Would you support sanctions against Trump if he did that?

Or would you just say, "hey guys, he is just trying to consolidate white people, you may call it genocide, but dynasties fall and he is just being pragmatic, just saying".
#15164035
noemon wrote:Would you call it genocide if say Trump suspended all our parliaments in the west, put us all in Guantanamos forcing us to write: "we love Trump forever" until he deemed us sufficient and also sterilised our women en mass?

Would you support sanctions against Trump if he did that?

Or would you just say, "hey guys, he is just trying to consolidate white people, you may call it genocide, but dynasties fall and he is just being pragmatic, just saying".


I prefer the term assimilate. Genocide to me means mass killing. And I can see why you are passionate about this. This does seem like Room 101. But I do think China was thinking of terrorism and this was their answer. But even so, given this is occurring on Chinese territory, how do you think we can stop this realistically?
#15164040
Rancid wrote:The idea isn't to punish China per say ...


B0ycey wrote:They just do not like Western interference in their politics.

......

As for HK and Uighurs, what China are doing is assimilating. They want everyone thinking along one party line.


Yeah, it's probably impractical to imagine the world will care about us enough to actively interfere.

In some sense both Sudan and Myanmar taught me a lot.

If the circumstances require so I think dying in a mass murder is an honour -- that means we are fearful enough to the perpetrators.


B0ycey wrote:You may call that genocide if you like. But they always learn from history.


If history can be learned, it either would not have repeated, or there wouldn't be new history.

They could learn what they think they "should", but the world does not work that way.

And if atrocities can go unpunished or unquestioned maybe the human race don't deserve the greatness they are enjoying. Sooner or later they will eat what they sow.
#15164046
Patrickov wrote:And if atrocities can go unpunished or unquestioned maybe the human race don't deserve the greatness they are enjoying. Sooner or later they will eat what they sow.


I have always thought China with HK was a lack of patience Patrickov. All they had to do was wait until 2047. Clearly they only want party officials in elections already. But again what can be done realistically? We can do sanctions I guess, but anything else cannot work.
#15164048
B0ycey wrote:I have always thought China with HK was a lack of patience Patrickov. All they had to do was wait until 2047. Clearly they only want party officials in elections already. But again what can be done realistically? We can do sanctions I guess, but anything else cannot work.


Which is why I think WW3 is already inevitable. Everyone must still do things to avert it but don't expect the effort to be successful.
#15164049
B0ycey wrote:I prefer the term assimilate. Genocide to me means mass killing. And I can see why you are passionate about this. This does seem like Room 101. But I do think China was thinking of terrorism and this was their answer. But even so, given this is occurring on Chinese territory, how do you think we can stop this realistically?


Me and you and all of us in here are far bigger terrorists for Trump than the Uyghurs have been for Xi.
#15164054
noemon wrote:Me and you and all of us in here are far bigger terrorists for Trump than the Uyghurs have been for Xi.


Well there were terrorist attacks in China that was attributed to the Uyghurs. I don't support Trump at all, so I suspect this is where we are going to disagree. That is not to say China should be culturally destroying Xinjaing, but I suspect they have took the doctrines of Marx to heart about religion and felt that was the cause which must be addressed ASAP. And now it is all about sticking the Han in the region, moving people about and perhaps brainwashing people into the one party system.
#15164055
B0ycey wrote:Well there were terrorist attacks in China that was attributed to the Uyghurs.


The people in the camps are not the ones who committed them. They have terrorist attacks in America too, a lot more actually.

In fact, the people in the camps are not anywhere near as terrorist as me and you have been against Trump through this online platform in here.
#15164056
noemon wrote:In fact, the people in the camps are not anywhere near as terrorist as me and you have been against Trump through this online platform in here.


Sorry, yes I have been against Trump. But I have always supported Americans and would never protest against their ways even if I think the two party system is flawed. In general I like America!
#15164062
noemon wrote:The people in the camps are not the ones who committed them. They have terrorist attacks in America too, a lot more actually.

In fact, the people in the camps are not anywhere near as terrorist as me and you have been against Trump through this online platform in here.



He was just saying what China (or to some people, just the Chinese Communist Party) thinks, and I don't think he's agreeing that.

Given that they do treat Hong Kong democracy activists and their populace in general no better than terrorists, it's no surprise that they treat everyone like terrorists.

To me, the main point has always been "what needs to be done to successfully punish China".
#15164065
Patrickov wrote:He was just saying what China (or to some people, just the Chinese Communist Party) thinks, and I don't think he's agreeing that.


If he did not condone it on some level he would not be saying it in the first place.

I'm sure Trump had fascist thoughts like that as well.
#15164075
noemon wrote:If he did not condone it on some level he would not be saying it in the first place.


According to Sun Tzu, knowing the enemy is vital to victory, so it's not that absolute.

That said, I won't be so tolerant if those words are uttered by, say, QatzelOk.


noemon wrote:I'm sure Trump had fascist thoughts like that as well.


Stop slipping in anti-Trump statements. Admin Edit: Rule 16 Violation, and I think some people are giving him too much credit by bashing him as if he's Adolf Hitler reborn.

As for "fascist thoughts", I am actually not as against that as you do. Many people say it is wrong when the means are wrong. I think they have a point, but sometimes it's "who you do what to" which matters.

I do have a list of people whom I think the fascist lunatics would have good use for, but most if not all of them are proven to be aggressors or supporters of aggression themselves.
#15164080
Patrickov wrote:According to Sun Tzu, knowing the enemy is vital to victory, so it's not that absolute.

That said, I won't be so tolerant if those words are uttered by, say, QatzelOk.


You are not very hmmm I'm not sure I can find the right word.

QatzelOk uttering those words has no effect because he has no credibility, B0ycey uttering them is far worse.

Stop slipping in anti-Trump statements. and I think some people are giving him too much credit by bashing him as if he's Adolf Hitler reborn.


1) I will slip whatever arguments I feel like whether you like them or not.

2) This is not about giving Trump any credit, this is about holding a mirror up in B0ycey's face.

As he was more critical of Trump than he is for Xi for far less, that thing we call hypocrisy starts becoming obvious, it's more obvious than Mt Everest actually.
#15164086
noemon wrote:If he did not condone it on some level he would not be saying it in the first place.


I'm not saying the ones in camps committed terrorism, I am saying the camps are a result of terrorism. This is why I don't debate this issue normally. I don't agree with cultural destruction so I don't agree with what is happening. But I understand why it is happening and when you bring it up you are accused of being pro Chinese. I also would rather know what people think the West can actually do about it in any case. Or perhaps what they would be prepared to do. Because we had the Rwanda genocide largely be ignored and the shit has hit the fan big time in Myanmar which is another recent event happening. Yet apart from a few comments here and there, we don't seem to interested there either.
#15164091
B0ycey wrote:I'm not saying the ones in camps committed terrorism, I am saying the camps are a result of terrorism. This is why I don't debate this issue normally. I don't agree with cultural destruction so I don't agree with what is happening. But I understand why it is happening and when you bring it up you are accused of being pro Chinese.


We all know why it is happening, this is what is actually off-topic, you are bringing it up on your own with an air that it is not such a big deal.

And more than that you are openly saying that we should not do anything to China, you are also saying that our factories should not even leave China.

And more you are saying that you are an anti-capitalist leftist.

Can you please tell me explicitly and clearly what policy would you support against Trump and his regime if he did this:

If Trump suspended all our parliaments in the west, put us all in Guantanamo forcing us to write: "we love Trump forever" until he deemed us sufficient and also sterilised our women en mass to the tune of 400k per year of course per capita it would be more like as if he would sterilise our women to the tune of more than 100 million per year analogically to the 2 populations. 13 million out of 1.3 billion Chinese, while for US-Europe you got more like half and half. The figures are not even 100 million sterilised women per year but a lot more, they are quite bonkers actually, once you put them into perspective.

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