An On-going Conflict. - Politics Forum.org | PoFo

Wandering the information superhighway, he came upon the last refuge of civilization, PoFo, the only forum on the internet ...

All general discussion about politics that doesn't belong in any of the other forums.

Moderator: PoFo Political Circus Mods

By Torus34
#15177406
I've just finished a book dealing with the deep state. That term is taken to mean what we would call the Administration, writ large. At present, there are roughly 1,870,000 federal civil employees. The overwhelming majority of them can be found within the agencies and departments of the administration. They fall under the responsibility of the President of the United States of America. The Congress of the United States of America retains oversight responsibilities.

The deep state, as defined above, is the repository of an immense wealth of data, experience and know-how. That is available to the president. Used well, the deep state can help to prevent a president from making serious errors. That's all well and good until we add in the immense power of the presidency. Conflicts between the deep state -- the administration -- and the president can arise. The most risible recent example is the set-to between NOAA and then-President Donald Trump over the track of hurricane Dorian in 2019. More generally, conflicts can arise whenever a president's instinctive feel of a situation is at odds with the administration's knowledge.

That's where the power of the presidency becomes very important. The Trump presidency was the most striking example of how a president who expands his authority to the very edges of its constitutional limits can change the government itself. Agencies -- creatures of the Congress -- can be eliminated. Congress itself can be stone-walled and divested of its oversight capabilities. The entire 'library' of expertise of the administration can be ignored.

As we have also seen, when a president manages to gain control of his party and that party holds one of the houses of the Congress of the United States, even impeachment -- the last barrier to a dictatorial presidency -- can be overcome.

It's an interesting thing to ponder, especially when thinking of the advantages of a 'strong' presidency.

Regards, stay safe 'n well.
By Torus34
#15177418
late wrote:A title would be nice, a link would be even better.


Hi, Late!

Here 'tis: Phantoms of a Beleaguered Republic: The Deep State and The Unitary Executive, by Stephen Skowronek, John A. Dearborn and Desmond King.


The authors write well. Arguments are presented clearly.

Regards, stay safe 'n well.
By late
#15177422
Torus34 wrote:
Hi, Late!

Here 'tis: Phantoms of a Beleaguered Republic: The Deep State and The Unitary Executive, by Stephen Skowronek, John A. Dearborn and Desmond King.


The authors write well. Arguments are presented clearly.

Regards, stay safe 'n well.



Sigh.

As soon as someone says 'Deep State', they are saying they've missed the obvious...

Let's take Covid as an example. Hundreds of thousands died because Trump was, and is, an incompetent sociopath.

If you look at the 3 other recent presidents, they all had to put in some serious work dealing with diseases. Not Trump, he tried to blow it off.

The book calls for some new relationship between the administrative arm of the government, and the executive. Sorry, that's utter fantasy.

What is needed is always a president working hard, doing his job. That means working with the administrative arm(s) of the government.
#15177423
@late

As soon as somebody says "deep state" I stop reading because I know that person is out of touch with reality and doesn't have the facts and is not rationale to talk intelligently with.
By Torus34
#15177424
late wrote:Sigh.

As soon as someone says 'Deep State', they are saying they've missed the obvious...

Let's take Covid as an example. Hundreds of thousands died because Trump was, and is, an incompetent sociopath.

If you look at the 3 other recent presidents, they all had to put in some serious work dealing with diseases. Not Trump, he tried to blow it off.

The book calls for some new relationship between the administrative arm of the government, and the executive. Sorry, that's utter fantasy.

What is needed is always a president working hard, doing his job. That means working with the administrative arm(s) of the government.


To continue our conversation, and referring to your last paragraph, we've seen that a president in tight control of his party, and with that party in control of at least one House of the Congress, is essentially free from the sole restraint on his power -- that of impeachment and removal.

That means that when we elect a president through our curiously distorted system [the Electoral College, gerrymandered districts, 'winner take all' assignment of electors, etc.,], we have no safeguard against a president who will essentially destroy our government's structure and in so doing, destroy the knowledge and expertise of the administration.

Regards, stay safe 'n well.
By Torus34
#15177425
Politics_Observer wrote:@late

As soon as somebody says "deep state" I stop reading because I know that person is out of touch with reality and doesn't have the facts and is not rationale [sic] to talk intelligently with.


Hi, Politics_Observer.

'Tis a pity in this instance, because the term 'deep state' is defined as the depth of knowledge, experience and understanding embodied in the depth of the administration and its agencies. No pejorative is intended.

We'll miss you.

Regards, stay safe 'n well.
#15177428
@Torus34

I am assuming you are American and reside here in the U.S. Trump supporters here have this paranoid conspiracy theory about the "deep state" that has no basis in reality or any merit. So, when you say "deep state" I automatically associate you with a conspiracy theorist who is not rationale and is out of touch with reality and cannot be reasoned with.
By Torus34
#15177430
Politics_Observer wrote:@Torus34

I am assuming you are American and reside here in the U.S. Trump supporters here have this paranoid conspiracy theory about the "deep state" that has no basis in reality or any merit. So, when you say "deep state" I automatically associate you with a conspiracy theorist who is not rationale and is out of touch with reality and cannot be reasoned with.


Hi right back!

I plead guilty to being, for lack of a better description, a secular humanist. That puts me outside the present Republican/Democrat liberal/conservative red/blue dichotomies. A byproduct of both a classical education and a professional life as a scientist [now retired], I tend to be fact and causality driven. Truth be known, I find many of the comments on forums such as this one to be risible at best, and head-shakingly wrong at worst.

Regards, best to you and yours.
#15177432
@Torus34

Well the only people I know who use the term "deep state" are Trump supporters and given that Trump supporters are by and large racist and oppose freedom and democracy, I would hardly describe them as "humanist."
By Torus34
#15177433
Politics_Observer wrote:@Torus34

Well the only people I know who use the term "deep state" are Trump supporters and given that Trump supporters are by and large racist and oppose freedom and democracy, I would hardly describe them as "humanist."


Aye, and there-in lay the confusion. One of the early Greek philosophers is credited with saying something to the effect of, 'If you would discuss with me, let us first define our terms.' A deep state has been, shall we say, weaponized by one of our two political parties. That would be a connotation, not a denotation of the term.

For the record, I would not describe myself as a supporter of Mr. Donald Trump.

Regards, best to you and yours. I believe we've taken this particular discussion to its end.
Last edited by Torus34 on 20 Jun 2021 01:31, edited 1 time in total.
Is Marxism old-fashioned?

We’re all just waiting to be in the big time i […]

Did You Get Vaccinated?

@Politics_Observer Well at least you didn't call[…]

Truman is probably a Japanese.

Truman being secretly Japanese and hiding it by s[…]

GPT3 can do some basic coding and tasks. It can[…]