First Transwoman Makes The Olympics! - Politics Forum.org | PoFo

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#15177643
I think we should just wait and see how this goes. The IOC has some serum test level requirements so whatever advantage would arise from past male puberty and the like - we can always give it a try and see how this works in practice. IIRC she's not the favorite to win anyway.
#15177645
wat0n wrote:I think we should just wait and see how this goes. The IOC has some serum test level requirements so whatever advantage would arise from past male puberty and the like - we can always give it a try and see how this works in practice. IIRC she's not the favorite to win anyway.


It doesn't matter whether she is favourite or not. My understanding is she still retains her testes FFS. If this was some formal weightlifting event it wouldn't matter so much. But there is a gold medal in contention and perhaps the IOC should be asking why they even have gender categories if the criteria is so relaxed now.
#15177663
I am afraid I don't think trans people should be competing with a gender they were not born to. There is enough issues with the use of hormones and controversies with performance enhancing drugs. I just don't like the idea of men or women training for years to compete with a person who might win by a razor thin margin because someone was born with testicles.
#15177664
It's absolutely absurd, and utterly ridiculous.

And I've been exposed to this for a while, especially through the Fallen Fox saga ('she' is an MMA fighter who is allowed to use 'her' man strength to rag tall female fighters in MMA cages).

The notion that there is anything to this being fair or reasonable is utterly false, and it is absurd and at the pinnacle of idiocy.
#15177682
I try to be as open-minded as I can when it comes to trans rights. I have no idea how difficult it must be to feel like you were born in the wrong body, so I do my best to be as understanding as possible.

That said, the Laurel Hubbard story pisses me off every time it comes up. It's so transparently ridiculous: she quite obviously has an enormous genetic advantage over her competition, even if she isn't the favourite to win. And for her to get into the New Zealand Olympic team means, by definition, that another woman has to miss out.

At the same time as the IOC is allowing Hubbard to compete in weightlifting, they are preventing Caster Semenya from competing in middle distance events due to a genetic issue that is completely out of her control. She didn't choose to be born intersex; Hubbard did choose to continue competing after transitioning, despite decades of development as a male beforehand.

Just absurd.
#15177694
Trans female athletes must lower testosterone levels. The athlete's total testosterone level in serum must remain below 10nmol/L, according to the IOC's transgender guidelines issued in 2015. Laurel Hubbard should follow this rule as well and he cannot be made an exception. In 2019, World Athletics changed the testosterone limit for transgender competitors, setting it at 5 nmol/L, from the previous 10 nmol/L, in order to bring it in line with the DSD (intersex) regulations. The International Cycling Union (UCI) followed suit in 2020. The same criteria should be applied to weightlifters. Caster Semenya and Francine Niyonsaba were disqualified because their testosterone levels were over 5 nmol/L.

Abstract
Objective To examine the effect of gender affirming hormones on athletic performance among transwomen and transmen.

Methods We reviewed fitness test results and medical records of 29 transmen and 46 transwomen who started gender affirming hormones while in the United States Air Force. We compared pre- and post-hormone fitness test results of the transwomen and transmen with the average performance of all women and men under the age of 30 in the Air Force between 2004 and 2014. We also measured the rate of hormone associated changes in body composition and athletic performance.

Results Participants were 26.2 years old (SD 5.5). Prior to gender affirming hormones, transwomen performed 31% more push-ups and 15% more sit-ups in 1 min and ran 1.5 miles 21% faster than their female counterparts. After 2 years of taking feminising hormones, the push-up and sit-up differences disappeared but transwomen were still 12% faster. Prior to gender affirming hormones, transmen performed 43% fewer push-ups and ran 1.5 miles 15% slower than their male counterparts. After 1 year of taking masculinising hormones, there was no longer a difference in push-ups or run times, and the number of sit-ups performed in 1 min by transmen exceeded the average performance of their male counterparts.

Summary The 15–31% athletic advantage that transwomen displayed over their female counterparts prior to starting gender affirming hormones declined with feminising therapy. However, transwomen still had a 9% faster mean run speed after the 1 year period of testosterone suppression that is recommended by World Athletics for inclusion in women’s events.

https://bjsm.bmj.com/content/55/11/577. ... eytype=ref
#15177705
Testosterone is one thing. What of muscle mass? What of muscle mass attained pre-castration? What of bone structure? What of various other physiological differences? If there aren't physiological differences why are woman more flexible and with higher pain tolerance?

What of estrogen?

It is a total farce.

And it is obviously the so called liberal social justice warriors behind it.
#15177731
I think this is wonderful. What a great day for sport.

I like to participate in cock fighting. Many do not like it but I do. My fighting rooster will be undefeated. Before he identified as a chicken he was a pit bull. But never fear. I taught him to cluck and glued feathers all over him.
#15177768
Crantag wrote:Testosterone is one thing. What of muscle mass? What of muscle mass attained pre-castration? What of bone structure? What of various other physiological differences? If there aren't physiological differences why are woman more flexible and with higher pain tolerance?

What of estrogen?

It is a total farce.

And it is obviously the so called liberal social justice warriors behind it.



Crantag the problem also is the entire idea of what the experience of being a boy or a girl means to each sex. I thought that if you are physically altered so that your sex in your mind matches your body image--that means that you are going to be happy being the opposite sex finally. I just saw a documentary about the reality of being a transgender person. i was horrified by what they talked about. They guaranteed this one born male trans who did the operation in 1990 of male to female? They cut his testes and penis and they created with it? An artificial vagina. She described that the vagina was small, not flexible and not comfortable to have straight sex with. She described it as extremely painful and inadequate. They don't ovulate and they feel their sexuality is non existent or inadequate (they don't have orgasms), and they find a sexual act with a male painful and unpleasant. They don't have lesbian feelings towards other women. So they really become asexuals. I was horrified. The women who became males stated their penises looked terrible and improvised, their testes never produced sperm, they could not sustain an erection for any length of time and they felt that the hormones they took were not sustainable over the long haul because it required steroids or other very potent drugs that sometimes made them more depressed rather than happy.

I think people better start talking about how taxing all that is on a human being's moods and psychology. I am sure there are transgenders who are pleased with their choices. But many are not. It is by no means a fix it to all the issues people have in not being able to reconcile their sexual identities. Until all that is worked out? I don't think sports should be changed to include males competing in a female category or women competing in male categories. Now if women and men in certain sports are EVEN? And it is not affected by a physical aspect of their hormones or such? Then? it is fine.

Some sports will never be able to be transgender permissible. it relies heavily on defined sex. Women's gymnastics is one. And boxing is another. I will never believe a female boxer is going to get in the ring with a male boxer both heavyweights and it is going to be a fair fight. Never. You can forget about that shit. Males have no breasts and being hit in the breast doesn't have the impact at all that it does in a woman. That is why you are not allowed to hit below the waist with males. it hurts a lot. That entire premise of transgender in sports without a whole lot of work in figuring something fair out is not intelligent at all.
#15177789
I think it would depend on the sport.

The international governing body for women’s flat track roller derby, WFTDA, had this debate years ago and finally decided on full inclusion for trans athletes. While I am unaware of rigourous peer reviewed scientific studies, there have been many informal studies and there seems to be no real advantage for those teams with athletes that transitioned from being identified as male.

The study cited by @ThirdTerm suggests that this may not be the case for certain running sports.
#15177794
Pants-of-dog wrote:I think it would depend on the sport.

The international governing body for women’s flat track roller derby, WFTDA, had this debate years ago and finally decided on full inclusion for trans athletes. While I am unaware of rigourous peer reviewed scientific studies, there have been many informal studies and there seems to be no real advantage for those teams with athletes that transitioned from being identified as male.

The study cited by @ThirdTerm suggests that this may not be the case for certain running sports.


I wonder about certain sports like rowing and track and field.
#15177804
While I am unaware of rigourous peer reviewed scientific studies, there have been many informal studies and there seems to be no real advantage for those teams with athletes that transitioned from being identified as male.


:roll:

Your ignorance is not evidence.
#15177809
Drlee wrote::roll:

Your ignorance is not evidence.


That is true.

Our ignorance is not an argument or evidence for either side.

This study says that the vast majority of policies dealing with trans athletes are not science based:
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5357259/

    Conclusion

    Currently, there is no direct or consistent research suggesting transgender female individuals (or male individuals) have an athletic advantage at any stage of their transition (e.g. cross-sex hormones, gender-confirming surgery) and, therefore, competitive sport policies that place restrictions on transgender people need to be considered and potentially revised.

The other studies I looked at focused on gender studies and how roller derby challenges traditional gender norms, and there was no discussion on athletic performance.
#15177811
Pants-of-dog wrote:That is true.

Our ignorance is not an argument or evidence for either side.

This study says that the vast majority of policies dealing with trans athletes are not science based:
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5357259/

    Conclusion

    Currently, there is no direct or consistent research suggesting transgender female individuals (or male individuals) have an athletic advantage at any stage of their transition (e.g. cross-sex hormones, gender-confirming surgery) and, therefore, competitive sport policies that place restrictions on transgender people need to be considered and potentially revised.

The other studies I looked at focused on gender studies and how roller derby challenges traditional gender norms, and there was no discussion on athletic performance.

You can use your eyes and your common sense.
#15177815
Crantag wrote:You can use your eyes and your common sense.



Sure!

When I go to roller derby games where only women play, I notice a broad range of body types. Some are small, some thin , some tall, some thick.

When I go to roller derby games where both sexes play, I notice a broad range of body types. Some are small, some thin, some tall, and s9me thick.

So that is using my eyes.

Now, my common sense tells me that this means that body size variation occurs within each gender more than between genders.
#15177824
Pants-of-dog wrote:Sure!

When I go to roller derby games where only women play, I notice a broad range of body types. Some are small, some thin , some tall, some thick.

When I go to roller derby games where both sexes play, I notice a broad range of body types. Some are small, some thin, some tall, and s9me thick.

So that is using my eyes.

Now, my common sense tells me that this means that body size variation occurs within each gender more than between genders.

I don't care about trannys playing roller dirby.

That's whatever. It's just fucking roller dirby.

The thread was about Olympic weightlifting (and by extension other Olympic sports, and by extension other real professional sports).

I don't know if it's proper for roller dirby or not, but it's just roller dirby so I figure who cares.
#15177825
Crantag wrote:I don't care about trannys playing roller dirby.

That's whatever. It's just fucking roller dirby.

The thread was about Olympic weightlifting (and by extension other Olympic sports, and by extension other real professional sports).

I don't know if it's proper for roller dirby or not, but it's just roller dirby so I figure who cares.


Roller derby players, officials, and fans probably care. Trans athletes looking for an inclusive sport also care. Scientists who want to understand how trans athletes fit into gendered sports leagues also probably care.

As for weightlifting, is there a scientific study that shows that trans athletes have an unfair advantage?
#15177828
I don't think there is much empirical literature on that matter, but you can't deny it's reasonable to assume MtF athletes do have a hormonal advantage based on what we know about sexual differentiation among humans, @Pants-of-dog

I say, let them still. See what happens, if people complain you know who to point your fingers to: Postmodern queer radical feminists such as Judith Butler. That's precisely why I'm all for letting her compete (plus I find it ironic since the idea that some federations use steroids to cheat can now be answered by others with this).

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