76 years since greatest terror act in history - Politics Forum.org | PoFo

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#15184246
Translation: ru-en
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In the 21st century, the West is trying to convince us that our grandfathers, who defeated German Nazism and Japanese militarism, are the same war criminals as the Nazis.

And you know, war criminals were indeed among the victors in World War II ...

Only these were not Russians, but Americans.

On August 6 and 9, 1945, they dropped atomic bombs on Hiroshima and Nagasaki, cities of almost defeated and ready to surrender Japan.

What moved the pitiful mind of the Gopnik Truman, who accidentally became president of the United States because of the death of Roosevelt?

Wanting to scare the USSR on the eve of the impending cold war? Write your name in history in such a pathetic way? Test weapons of unprecedented power at any cost?

Perhaps all together.

But the fact remains: the main culprits of the Second World War were the German Nazis and Hitler, but one of the main war crimes, comparable to the Holocaust or genocide of the Slavic population of the USSR, was committed by the Americans, with the support of the British, who unleashed a fiery nuclear tornado on Japan.

Unlike the Nazi bosses, they were victorious and escaped the dock. But isn't it time to condemn them today, in the 21st century?

Listen to the executioners themselves - there is not a bit of remorse in their words!

Truman to Enola Gay Commander Paul Tibbets: “Never feel guilty. This is my decision. You are a soldier and you had no choice. This is the greatest thing in history! "

“I was the one who had to decide where and when the atomic bomb should be used. Let people not be deceived: I have always considered this bomb to be a military weapon, and I never doubted that it was my duty to use it. When I consulted with Churchill, he said without hesitation that he was in favor of using the atomic bomb if it could hasten the end of the war. "

Robert Oppenheimer told the president that after the barbaric bombing of Japanese cities, he and his colleagues felt "blood on their hands," to which Truman replied: "Nothing, it is easily washed off with water."

Before the flight, Pernell turned to the pilot Sweeney (the commander of the plane that dropped the atomic bomb on Nagasaki):

“Young man, do you know how much this bomb is worth?

- I know: about $ 25 million.

- So, try not to waste this money.

“One bomb or thousands of bombs. Who cares?" (Van Kirk, co-driver of Enola Gay)

However, there was also one worthy person.

Chief of Staff of the US President Admiral William Lehey: “In my opinion, the use of these barbaric weapons in Hiroshima and Nagasaki did not provide significant assistance in our war against Japan. The Japanese were already defeated and ready to surrender. Personally, I believe that by applying it first, we thereby adopted the ethical standard characteristic of the barbarians of the Middle Ages. I was not taught to wage war in this way, and a war cannot be won by destroying women and children. "

So, I will repeat my question.

Isn't it time today to try Americans for this war crime against Japan and humanity?‌‌
#15184252
@Rakshasa

So you wouldn't consider the fact that Soviet troops raped German women en-mass as not being a war crime? German women were treated as spoils of war by Soviet troops. Truth be told, no nation that fought in World War II had clean hands. It was a war and war has it's own rules.
#15184262
Politics_Observer wrote:@Rakshasa

So you wouldn't consider the fact that Soviet troops raped German women en-mass as not being a war crime? German women were treated as spoils of war by Soviet troops. Truth be told, no nation that fought in World War II had clean hands. It was a war and war has it's own rules.


@Politics_Observer , as it happened, a significant amount of those stories of Red Army atrocities were manufactured by Dr. Goebbels and kept alive during the Cold War. The Nazis invented similar stories of Polish atrocities against ethnic Germans in Poland in the immediate aftermath of their invasion of Poland. Their lies live long after them. And you're right; there were some atrocities, and English, American, and French troops committed war crimes aplenty themselves. I remember reading about Generals Harris and Curtis LeMay, who admitted that their fire-bombing of Axis cities would have meant their hangings had the Axis won.

The difference between all the Axis powers leadership and all the Allied powers leadership is that the Axis was deliberately intent on acts they knew to be ''war crimes'' from the start, thinking that it gave these ''Supermen'' the edge against those who resisted them.
#15184269
Politics_Observer wrote:@annatar1914

That's not what this Soviet veteran who was there at the time says:



Let's just cut the crap of anybody being "morally superior" in World War II. This was the reality of World War II.


@Politics_Observer , I didn't say that atrocities committed by Red Army personnel didn't happen, I am saying they didn't happen on the scale of what Dr. Goebbels was talking about in his German propaganda. What was truly massive-and quite deliberate was the murder and mass rape of persons by the Germans (on all fronts but especially in the Balkans and Eastern Europe) throughout the war, and by the Japanese in the Far East. There were mass rapes by American troops of Allied country women in places like France, even, that has been suppressed to a large degree for decades now, and the German women were regarded as fair game by many allied troops in the West during and after the war.

Mass rapes have universally occurred wherever men fight and kill each other. I'm quite certain that women in the Middle East in Afghanistan and Iraq were raped by foreign troops in more recent times too. It's one of the evils of war; it makes people evil even if they weren't particularly so before, few can escape that, those that do are remarkable.
#15184271
I agree with @annatar1914. Trying to say that the USSR and Nazi Germany are equivalent in terms of atrocity is ridiculous cold war propaganda. The Nazis literally tried to exterminate the Slavs. It was this insane dedication to ethnic cleansing that doomed them from the beginning. Did the Soviet army commit atrocities? Yes. But this was nothing like what the Nazis did and were intending to do. If the point is that war is bad then that's fine and true, but the Soviets were definitely "morally superior" to the Nazis in the most basic way.
#15184272
@Red_Army

You're pretty ignorant if you think any side is "morally superior." War crimes were committed by all sides. No side had clean hands. It's just the nature of a war. The Soviets also exterminated many more people through starvation and the gulags prior to World War II and during World War II. They had their own concentration camps and that was called the gulag. There were millions of people the Soviets killed in this way (prior to and during World War II).

I spoke with a German whom I met here in the U.S. whose grandfather was a POW of the Soviets during World War II and he told me the Soviets deliberately starved the German POWs and then fed them to intentionally kill them (by feeding them while they were starved). His grandfather was one of the few survivors of being a German POW in Soviet custody. The Germans also committed terrible war crimes on Soviet soil when they invaded the Soviet Union. We here in the U.S. put Japanese American citizens into internment camps. That was the reality of World War II. Not so glorious like what you see on TV shows.
#15184273
[quote="Rakshasa"][/quote]



Vladimir Ulyanov,


It appears in your estimation- going by your post- that the main culprit in WWII was German Nazis. That is understandable, especially if viewed through the windows of the Kremlin. But did you factor in the Chinese? Or that nasty business known to history as the Rape of Nanking? Estimates of Japanese butchery dwarf that of Hiroshima. And it was done the old fashion way: up to 150,000 male prisoners butchered, buried alive; add to that some 50,000 civilians; and the mass rapes. I am sure if someone had lent the Chinese a few atom bombs, they would have gladly dropped them on Japan themselves.


As to the nuking of Hiroshima and Nangasaki, keep things in perspective. The nightly raids on Japanese cities were no less deadly. The butcher's bill from the raid on Tokyo March 9th 1945 was higher than that for Hiroshima or Nangasaki
#15184274
@Juin

A lot of civilians died during the bombing raids of both Germany and Japan. Dresden was deliberately bomb to kill the maximum number of civilians and had no military value whatsoever, yet, British and American planes were ordered to bomb it in a massive bombing raid regardless. Winston Churchill himself called it a "dirty deed." The reason was because we knew the Soviet army would be coming through Dresden really soon and we wanted to send a message to the Soviets about checking their ambitions on invading Western Europe after the Germans surrendered. Another reason for bombing Dresden was to terrorize the civilian population of Germany.
#15184275
Politics_Observer wrote:@Juin

A lot of civilians died during the bombing raids of both Germany and Japan. Dresden was deliberately bomb to kill the maximum number of civilians and had no military value whatsoever, yet, British and American planes were ordered to bomb it in a massive bombing raid regardless. Winston Churchill himself called it a "dirty deed." The reason was because we knew the Soviet army would be coming through Dresden really soon and we wanted to send a message to the Soviets about checking their ambitions on invading Western Europe after the Germans surrendered.


@Politics_Observer , so the mass slaughter by the Anglo-American contingent of the Allied Powers upon Axis cities and civilian targets of little to no military or industrial significance was still basically the Soviets fault, because a message had to be sent to over-awe them Bolsheviks out of their alleged bellicose designs on everyone and everything else?
#15184276
@annatar1914

I'm not blaming anybody for anything. I am just stating nobody was "morally superior" in their conduct during World War II. Nobody had clean hands. So if that is the case, I think @Rakshasa should not be insinuating that somehow, the Russians had clean hands and were "morally superior" in it's conduct during World War II. As the old saying goes, one who sits in glass houses should not cast stones.

Aside from that, here is the a video where the bombing of Dresden by the allies is discussed.



#15184277
Red_Army wrote:I agree with @annatar1914. Trying to say that the USSR and Nazi Germany are equivalent in terms of atrocity is ridiculous cold war propaganda. The Nazis literally tried to exterminate the Slavs. It was this insane dedication to ethnic cleansing that doomed them from the beginning. Did the Soviet army commit atrocities? Yes. But this was nothing like what the Nazis did and were intending to do. If the point is that war is bad then that's fine and true, but the Soviets were definitely "morally superior" to the Nazis in the most basic way.




When it came to atrocities the Nazis were in a class of their own.

If you ask me, I will say Germans got off relatively lightly given what they premeditated, planned, and actually executed on Slavic peoples. It is one thing the atrocities by foot soldiers on conquered territories, and quite another when it is policy designed and executed by authorities.

It chills the blood to read what the Germans planned for the Eastern European populations. Hitler and Goering guffawed at exactly what foodstuffs were to be seized from Slavic countries for German use; guffawed at how what was left would be insufficient to ensure survival of the populations; and clearly stated that that was in fact the desired end. The populations of Eastern Europe will be exterminated by attrition: as slave labour, as food producers; and as they died they would be replaced by German implants!

Karma is a bitch, the saying goes. It is interesting that in the end Nazi philosophy doomed Germany. The later battles on the Easter front- after the successes of the first year of Operation Barbarossa- were tough for the Germans, as they could not match the man power the Russians could throw at them. Nazi barbarity had convinced the majority of Slavs that Stalin was bad, but Hitler offered nothing but pain, suffering, starvation, death, extermination.
#15184280
Juin wrote:When it came to atrocities the Nazis were in a class of their own.

If you ask me, I will say Germans got off relatively lightly given what they premeditated, planned, and actually executed on Slavic peoples. It is one thing the atrocities by foot soldiers on conquered territories, and quite another when it is policy designed and executed by authorities.

It chills the blood to read what the Germans planned for the Eastern European populations. Hitler and Goering guffawed at exactly what foodstuffs were to be seized from Slavic countries for German use; guffawed at how what was left would be insufficient to ensure survival of the populations; and clearly stated that that was in fact the desired end. The populations of Eastern Europe will be exterminated by attrition: as slave labour, as food producers; and as they died they would be replaced by German implants!

Karma is a bitch, the saying goes. It is interesting that in the end Nazi philosophy doomed Germany. The later battles on the Easter front- after the successes of the first year of Operation Barbarossa- were tough for the Germans, as they could not match the man power the Russians could throw at them. Nazi barbarity had convinced the majority of Slavs that Stalin was bad, but Hitler offered nothing but pain, suffering, starvation, death, extermination.


@Juin ;

All Russians were to be exterminated by one means or another. Moscow was to be leveled and made into a giant artificial lake. And here we are with our miserable modern ''ethics'' and ''morality'' counting and assessing the atrocities like ghoulish accountants.

I'm a savage I guess, considering I do not know a family that does not have at least one or more dead from the Fascist hordes. For Nazism, I might have considered the ''Morgenthau Plan'' by way of reply had I been in charge. But the victors were all relatively merciful, i'd say.
#15184281
The German Nazis and Japanese Imperialists were the worst. The Italian Fascists wanted to play in their league but couldn't quite get there.

The US and the USSR were brutal. Given how many Russians, Belarusians and Ukrainians had died I'll give them some nuance to any atrocities committed. The US wanted to flex their muscles and had any other party been given the opportunity they would have done the same.

As always, British Imperialists got of far too easy and that alcoholic slug Churchill can rot in hell.
#15184282
Politics_Observer wrote:@Juin

A lot of civilians died during the bombing raids of both Germany and Japan. Dresden was deliberately bomb to kill the maximum number of civilians and had no military value whatsoever, yet, British and American planes were ordered to bomb it in a massive bombing raid regardless. Winston Churchill himself called it a "dirty deed." The reason was because we knew the Soviet army would be coming through Dresden really soon and we wanted to send a message to the Soviets about checking their ambitions on invading Western Europe after the Germans surrendered. Another reason for bombing Dresden was to terrorize the civilian population of Germany.




Politics_Observer,

I disagree that taking the war to civilians has no military value. It has. Civilian contributions are the critical, if not the major factors in waging war, maintaining a regime in power etc. It is a dirty and disgusting business taking war to civilians. It will seem humans recognise that, and over time men have tended to advocate sparing civilians undue suffering and carnage. Increasingly throughout history condemnations of carnage on civilians have been condemned.

But it is not true that taking war to civilians has no military value. It does. What is the military? The military does not exist in a vacuum, insulated from the populations. The military draws its strength from the economy behind it, which economy is a direct result of civilian efforts.

While men might be well intentioned at the beginning stages of a war, this changes if the campaign begins to drag on and on, and the toll begins to wear down the combatting sides. The US Civil War was a case in point. At some point Sherman was unleashed on the South. He promised to make Atlanta- your Atlanta!- howl. That was a clear case of the North taking the war to the civilians in the South.

I dont believe also that at the height of WWII the Allies- Soviets or the Westerners- were paying that much attention to post WWII. That would be asking too much of them. Even if someone brought up the topic, doubtless it would be a case of "who cares" among the combattants.

I have never come across any suggestion that Dresden bombing was to send a message to the Russians. When Hitler hurled his Armies against the Soviet Union, Winston Churchill all but danced a jig. Churchill made this comment, "If Hitler invaded hell, I would make at least a favourable reference of the devil in the House of Commons". Who wouldnt have agreed with Churchill? Hitler, in invading the Soviet Union, threw three big Armies numbering up to three million soldiers. These were Armies that were not gonna be facing the British. And that also guided Allied strategy. If Stalin pulled out of the war, say by cutting some kind of deal with Hitler, it will allow Hitler to deploy back in the west a formidable war machine. Keeping Stalin fighting made all the sense in the world. It gave the US time to marshall forces for the eventual assault on Germany. But until that time ole Joe had to hold off the Germans; a no easy task.

Understandably Joe also pestered the Allies endlessly about opening up a second front.
#15184283
@Juin

I am descended of a Confederate ancestor who was a POW at Camp Douglas. My family has his pension records. He survived the war. Personally, I hold no ill will towards Sherman but I did not live during those times either. Sherman was doing his job. My family believes that my Confederate ancestor did not volunteer to fight but was actually conscripted to fight by the Confederate government at the time. He was conscripted in 1863 as the Union army moved on his home county.

He fought in several engagements around or close by Atlanta (I can't say for sure on Altanta) and in Nashville, Tennessee (he was definately in Nashville fighting and had participated in several engagements prior to being captured close by Nashville) where he was captured by Union forces. We think he was likely captured at the Battle of Shy's Hill. Another person who has ancestors that lived during the American Civil War talked about how the Union army stole all their lifestock and put their farm out of business and that the family almost starved to death. His direct descendant became angry and took revenge on Union soldiers and the Union soldiers eventually hunted him down and hung him. This particular person told me his ancestor rode with Confederate guerrillas after losing his farm to Union forces. So, it was a mess.
#15184286
@Juin

Edited my post above to ensure accuracy based on my recollections of talking with family members. I have visited my Confederate ancestor's grave where he is buried. He has an American flag placed by it every year.
#15184288
annatar1914 wrote:@Juin ;

All Russians were to be exterminated by one means or another. Moscow was to be leveled and made into a giant artificial lake. And here we are with our miserable modern ''ethics'' and ''morality'' counting and assessing the atrocities like ghoulish accountants.

I'm a savage I guess, considering I do not know a family that does not have at least one or more dead from the Fascist hordes. For Nazism, I might have considered the ''Morgenthau Plan'' by way of reply had I been in charge. But the victors were all relatively merciful, i'd say.




I would have considered the "Morgenthau Plan" as well, if I had been in charge.

And you know what is the kicker! And it is truly hilarious. Hitler actually had his own Level 4 "Morgenthau Plan" for Germans. By Level 4, I mean "Morgenthau Plan" raised to the fourth power. As the dictator saw his empire crumbling before his eyes he ordered a scorched earth policy of sorts: the destruction of Germany's infrastructure, so as to deprive the victors of them. His Generals and other Nazi officers pointed out that that would mean the reduction of the German population to starvation, or worse. Hitler's response was that Germans who were worth it were already dead, those that were still alive were not worth it! Luckily none of the Germans so ordered implemented the demonic fellow's hallucinations. In the end even those who Nazi supremacism were supposed to benefit were recommended their own prescription for destruction by Hitler.

History has not appreciated fully the sacrifice of Russians. I wont say it is because historians were malicious towards Russia necessarily. The fact of the matter is that the bulk of journalists, who in the end contributed to the writing of history, were in their vast majority all in the west. Naturally, it is their experiences that wrote up history.

One only has to look at the size of the Armies Hitler deployed for Operation Barbarossa to appreciate what was tied down in the Easter Front. Three huge Army Groups amounting to up to three million men. At any point if Russia had been broken, all that mass would have been rushed back to the Western Front. What would have been the fate of D Day if Hitler could have moved all that huge deployments in the East back to the West?
#15184297
Juin wrote:I would have considered the "Morgenthau Plan" as well, if I had been in charge.

And you know what is the kicker! And it is truly hilarious. Hitler actually had his own Level 4 "Morgenthau Plan" for Germans. By Level 4, I mean "Morgenthau Plan" raised to the fourth power. As the dictator saw his empire crumbling before his eyes he ordered a scorched earth policy of sorts: the destruction of Germany's infrastructure, so as to deprive the victors of them. His Generals and other Nazi officers pointed out that that would mean the reduction of the German population to starvation, or worse. Hitler's response was that Germans who were worth it were already dead, those that were still alive were not worth it! Luckily none of the Germans so ordered implemented the demonic fellow's hallucinations. In the end even those who Nazi supremacism were supposed to benefit were recommended their own prescription for destruction by Hitler.

History has not appreciated fully the sacrifice of Russians. I wont say it is because historians were malicious towards Russia necessarily. The fact of the matter is that the bulk of journalists, who in the end contributed to the writing of history, were in their vast majority all in the west. Naturally, it is their experiences that wrote up history.

One only has to look at the size of the Armies Hitler deployed for Operation Barbarossa to appreciate what was tied down in the Easter Front. Three huge Army Groups amounting to up to three million men. At any point if Russia had been broken, all that mass would have been rushed back to the Western Front. What would have been the fate of D Day if Hitler could have moved all that huge deployments in the East back to the West?


@Juin , I am not so inclined to think it a mere accident of history that the sacrifices of the East are scarcely known or believed in the West. But no mind about that for now. What is important is that the real roots of Fascism lie in death, while at least the ideologies that opposed It were a positive affirmation of some kind of life, no matter how twisted or wrong-headed they have been in implementation.

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