[late]

Okay, so alleged nationalist propaganda = cyberwar.

It's part of the conflict.

As previously stated, give it a rest...

(I should take my own advice, but haven't you noticed the rise in both frequency and sophistication in people pushing Chinese propaganda?) (Not that it's actually sophisticated, just that they are better than the hacks we had last year)

[wat0n]

@Crantag American work culture seems mild compared with Chinese one, though. If you want societies with a more laid back work culture, you may wish to consider the Hispanic world.

I've never been to China but I have a friend who went during an exchange program. He told me that the Chinese are a lot less judgmental than Americans are so there is more freedom in that sense, but otherwise it's a dictatorship and the government acts like one.

One thing I've noticed since moving to the US is that a lot of the social norm enforcement is done by the civil society itself instead of the State. I think it works similarly in other Anglo societies, and in the West in general it's done through guilt rather than public humiliation since the Enlightenment, even if the latter is still used sometimes. I don't think this is necessarily a bad thing (in many cases, it's a milder and more efficient way of enforcing social norms - which exists in every society, by the way - than by having the government take up that role through the law). Other societies are a lot more lax when it comes to the enforcement of social norms by the regular Joe, if only because those societies may actually expect the State to have a greater responsibility in taking up that role or because they have enough trouble dealing with an intrusive State to bother with being intrusive themselves.

I legit thought the video was a comedy sketch, but if it really is a political gathering then the issue has a lot to do with some people wanting to change those social norms, and particularly what constitutes grounds for victimization. Of course, the way they are coming around this is not only surprisingly inconvenient and not particularly respectful of everyone's time, but alienating to the wider society that simply does not think a person is being victimized by others clapping or cheering, even if he has a legitimate special condition, and does not believe it has to learn to adjust to this person's special needs to be able to interact in a gathering. In fact, here the expectation is actually that the person with the condition will learn how to interact with the wider society, and will learn how to deal with clapping and the like. But then again, it's simply part of a concerted effort to change social norms, and one that it done in this way since those norms are not enforced by the government but by civil society itself. Also, I doubt this will succeed as they are coming as annoying to everyone else.

[Crantag]

@Crantag American work culture seems mild compared with Chinese one, though. If you want societies with a more laid back work culture, you may wish to consider the Hispanic world.

I've never been to China but I have a friend who went during an exchange program. He told me that the Chinese are a lot less judgmental than Americans are so there is more freedom in that sense, but otherwise it's a dictatorship and the government acts like one.

One thing I've noticed since moving to the US is that a lot of the social norm enforcement is done by the civil society itself instead of the State. I think it works similarly in other Anglo societies, and in the West in general it's done through guilt rather than public humiliation since the Enlightenment, even if the latter is still used sometimes. I don't think this is necessarily a bad thing (in many cases, it's a milder and more efficient way of enforcing social norms - which exists in every society, by the way - than by having the government take up that role through the law). Other societies are a lot more lax when it comes to the enforcement of social norms by the regular Joe, if only because those societies may actually expect the State to have a greater responsibility in taking up that role or because they have enough trouble dealing with an intrusive State to bother with being intrusive themselves.

I legit thought the video was a comedy sketch, but if it really is a political gathering then the issue has a lot to do with some people wanting to change those social norms, and particularly what constitutes grounds for victimization. Of course, the way they are coming around this is not only surprisingly inconvenient and not particularly respectful of everyone's time, but alienating to the wider society that simply does not think a person is being victimized by others clapping or cheering, even if he has a legitimate special condition, and does not believe it has to learn to adjust to this person's special needs to be able to interact in a gathering. In fact, here the expectation is actually that the person with the condition will learn how to interact with the wider society, and will learn how to deal with clapping and the like. But then again, it's simply part of a concerted effort to change social norms, and one that it done in this way since those norms are not enforced by the government but by civil society itself. Also, I doubt this will succeed as they are coming as annoying to everyone else.

Chinese work culture is certainly intense.

But, America ain't any better.

I could make a solid argument that America is worse.

In terms of the demands and intensity, they are probably about on a par.

In terms of how people are treated, I was treated nice in China, and haven't always been treated nice in America, but I've never been Chinese and working in China.

I guess China is probably worse in this regard, but the same could be said about most places.

The thing is, they aren't worse by that much, and in America, people are treated pretty awful. It is maybe even sort of on a par with one another. China could even be better.

However, in China, they have social welfare attached to work. They have health insurance, life insurance, home ownership savings account, and these are funded in part by the government. Good luck with any of that shit in America.


As far as this 'it's a dictatorship and so on', I guess I just have one story.

One of the only times I talked to a cop in China, a cop did come by to check my residency, at the apartment I was renting. I simply showed him my rental contract and my passport.

I don't speak a lot of Chinese. I was freaked out with the cop coming to my door, but my Chinese girlfriend was in my bed.

She couldn't even be assed to get up, she just communicated with the cop through yelling, and he had the full indication of having no intention to step inside my home, like leaning back with his hands behind his back, style.

He just needed to see the documents.

I was all legit, and so I was fine.

The cops aren't usually much of a factor in life.

And most Chinese people will just tell cops to fuck off.

Chinese have that tick, where they like to tell people to fuck off, regularly.

But sure, it was an intrusion in a sense. Had I been there illegally, I might have had an issue.

I also bailed my girlfriend out of jail once, she was kinda nuts, so I had a few cop experiences.

Chinese cops are docile and not at all aggressive.

And, the day to day there is not bad at all.

I prefer China to Japan, and I lived in Japan for 7 years.

In Japan, there are all kinds of stupid rules all the time, everywhere you go. And people all walk around with sticks up their ass.

In America, the cops are aggressive, and basically everything else about the general scene here, is worse than China, in my personal experience. That goes for the homelessness. That goes for the parking tickets. That goes for damn near everything, directly impacting my day to day life.

[Crantag]

Nope, I have been arguing against that for half a century (Among other things, I was a Nam protester).

"More than a dozen academics, NGO workers and media professionals CNN spoke to, who in pre-Covid times regularly traveled to China, said they were unwilling to do this once the pandemic restrictions lifted, over fears for their personal safety. Several in the international business community said they would significantly modify their behavior while outside China to avoid attracting the ire of authorities in the country, where they need to do business.
The dramatic detention of a handful of foreigners in recent years has instilled a deep fear in some people, especially those with politically adjacent occupations. As President Xi breeds a culture of nationalism and forges increasingly hostile relations with Western governments, some fear that if a diplomatic spat between their government and Beijing occurred while they were in China they could become a target."
https://www.cnn.com/2021/03/09/china/china-travel-foreigners-arbitrary-detention-hnk-dst-intl/index.html

I have seen similar from several other sources. It is, in fact, screamingly obvious.

Do you think Chinese in America have it better?

I assure you, they don't.

America is worse.

I commend you for opposing the Vietnam War and all that, but you have bought in to American propaganda, particularly, so-called 'American exceptionalism'.

It is rare I give time of day to anything published by CNN about China, but for you, I made an exception.

[Rancid]

Incredible. You're really comparing a violent *attempted coup* / domestic-terrorism, to the internal political culture of a *left wing* group.

That silly internal political culture is the culture they would import into governance if they somehow attained power/influence. This isn't something that would just disappear or not manifest itself in the larger political landscape.

Just as the silly internal political culture of MAGA types (talk of revolution, talk of renewing America, talk of violence and cleansing, etc. etc.) eventually did get imported (to some degree) into our government during Trumps time.

Just because they aren't violent doesn't mean they aren't dangerously stupid.

[late]

but you have bought in to American propaganda, particularly, so-called 'American exceptionalism'.

"The PRC government arbitrarily enforces local laws, including by carrying out arbitrary and wrongful detentions and through the use of exit bans on U.S. citizens and citizens of other countries without due process of law. The PRC government uses arbitrary detention and exit bans to:

compel individuals to participate in PRC government investigations,
pressure family members to return to the PRC from abroad,
influence PRC authorities to resolve civil disputes in favor of PRC citizens, and
gain bargaining leverage over foreign governments.

In most cases, U.S. citizens only become aware of an exit ban when they attempt to depart the PRC, and there is no reliable mechanism or legal process to find out how long the ban might continue or to contest it in a court of law.

U.S. citizens traveling or residing in the PRC, including Hong Kong, may be detained without access to U.S. consular services or information about their alleged crime. U.S. citizens may be subjected to prolonged interrogations and extended detention without due process of law.

Foreigners in the PRC, including but not limited to businesspeople, former foreign government personnel, and journalists from Western countries, have been arbitrarily interrogated and detained by PRC officials for alleged violations of PRC national security laws. The PRC has also threatened, interrogated, detained, and expelled U.S. citizens living and working in the PRC."
https://travel.state.gov/content/travel/en/traveladvisories/traveladvisories/china-travel-advisory.html

That's the government talking...

" Chinese officials have told the Trump administration that security officers in China might detain American citizens if the Justice Department proceeds with prosecutions of arrested scholars who are members of the Chinese military, American officials said.

The Chinese officials conveyed the messages starting this summer, when the Justice Department intensified efforts to arrest and charge the scholars, mainly with providing false information on their visa applications, the American officials said. U.S. law enforcement officials say at least five Chinese scholars who have been arrested in recent months did not disclose their military affiliations on visa applications and might have been trying to conduct industrial espionage in research centers."
https://www.nytimes.com/2020/10/18/us/politics/china-us-threats-detain.html

A decade ago, things were quite different. Between Trump and Xi, the relationship soured. The State Dept bulletin only reflects what we've been seeing in the news, which is Americans being used as pawns, beaten by nationalists in the streets, etc.

Which makes wonder why you have such a complete inability to see that change. It's not like China has been subtle about it...

[ckaihatsu]

That silly internal political culture is the culture they would import into governance if they somehow attained power/influence. This isn't something that would just disappear or not manifest itself in the larger political landscape.

Just as the silly internal political culture of MAGA types (talk of revolution, talk of renewing America, talk of violence and cleansing, etc. etc.) eventually did get imported (to some degree) into our government during Trumps time.

Just because they aren't violent doesn't mean they aren't dangerously stupid.

I still think you're misguided in conflating left-wing politics with right-wing politics.

What do you have against being socially conscious of gender / transgender identity -- ?

[Rancid]

I still think you're misguided in conflating left-wing politics with right-wing politics.

What do you have against being socially conscious of gender / transgender identity -- ?

[Unthinking Majority]

So you have 'cultural' issues with a group that you don't even identify with -- ?

Your concern here is about someone else's political culture?

I don't care what they do, I do care that someday they'll come to my organization and want me to do it too.

Some guy in the video wants everyone to stop whispering and chattering because "it triggers my anxiety" and he "gets sensory overload". Where does reasonable accommodation end and where does the unreasonable begin? At what point do we have to change our behaviour for a small minority, and at what point do they have to change their own behaviour to accommodate the group?

They made a quiet room where people can watch the conference without sound or without video (or something of the sort), that seems more reasonable than forcing everyone to be mute because one guy has triggers for their disability.

People like this are narcissists obsessed with telling other people what they can and can't do in order to accommodate their own wishes. That takes a lot of nerve.

I think a lot of young people these days are used to growing up and being able to make demands to their own parents and having those demands met. This is called being an entitled and spoiled little shit.

[ckaihatsu]

No, really, I'm being serious.

Straight people, as well as LGBTQ people, and women, will all *swear* that they're inherently, *biologically* that way, gender-wise -- as far as society is concerned I think *everyone* should have civil rights around whatever their gender / transgender identity happens to be.

I don't care what they do, I do care that someday they'll come to my organization and want me to do it too.

Isn't this far-fetched and borderline *fearful*, though -- ?

As far as *politics* is concerned, I think what's at-stake here is *civil rights*, and that's pretty much it. The rest would be *discretionary* and optional because as soon as *anyone* started to *impose* about anything, the imposed-upon party could simply *walk away* to escape the imposition. That's the definition of civil society.

Some guy in the video wants everyone to stop whispering and chattering because "it triggers my anxiety" and he "gets sensory overload". Where does reasonable accommodation end and where does the unreasonable begin? At what point do we have to change our behaviour for a small minority, and at what point do they have to change their own behaviour to accommodate the group?

Again, I think you're mixing *contexts* here -- you're not a member of the DSA, so you're not obligated in any way to abide by that particular organizational political culture. Any concerns beyond that, as you've been alluding to, are *imaginary* on your part.

They made a quiet room where people can watch the conference without sound or without video (or something of the sort), that seems more reasonable than forcing everyone to be mute because one guy has triggers for their disability.

Hey, what organization are you with, so that *I* can make recommendations about how to behave *there* -- ?


x D

People like this are narcissists obsessed with telling other people what they can and can't do in order to accommodate their own wishes. That takes a lot of nerve.

I think a lot of young people these days are used to growing up and being able to make demands to their own parents and having those demands met. This is called being an entitled and spoiled little shit.

Psychologizing again. Great. Instead of doing politics you'd rather do wholesale character assassination. Cliched.

[Unthinking Majority]

I don't think you all are wrong to bring up Nietzsche here. To me the DSA PC stuff seems like Christian morality of pity for the poor and weak to the absolute extreme. And taken to its logical conclusion, that means pity for extreme cringe and time-wasting procedural nonsense. A socialism that only has Christian slave morality, and nothing of a will to actual power, will find itself in a dead end like this. It is a politics more about catering to the sensitivities and guilt of elite privileged college students than actually achieving anything whatsoever for the working class. People who actually have to work for a living don't have the time or patience to qualify every single statement to consider how it might offend 100 different "identities" / mental illnesses in a room of 100 people.

There's nothing wrong with some guilt for the oppressed, compassion or pity for the less fortunate. Not having any of that makes someone a sociopath. As you say it's about taking things to an extreme point.

I'm not anti young liberal, I used to be one once. Young people bring new ideas. When you cast off old social norms and introduce new ones, like say gender pronouns, to be more inclusive of others for example, you're often doing away with old norms that have reached some kind of social equilibrium. These things have reached that equilibrium through decades or centuries of trial and error and they exist because society has decided that they work.

Fitting new ideas into society, well they are untested and sometimes they work, sometimes they don't. There hasn't been a centuries of trial and error yet to reach a new social equilibrium to where it works and society is able to more or less efficiently function to most peoples satisfaction. Any business that would try to have large meetings like this would fail because they'd simply be wasting too much time. People will figure things outs over time.

It's like introducing new widespread ideas into society like divorce and socially acceptable pre-marital sex etc. We're finding out that there were good reasons why divorce was frowned on as was pre-marital sex, and it wasn't all about "controlling women". Having a society filled with broken families and fatherless children is not good for society. So adjustments need to be made like creating norms of always using birth control, or don't be so cavalier when seeking divorce.

[Crantag]

"The PRC government arbitrarily enforces local laws, including by carrying out arbitrary and wrongful detentions and through the use of exit bans on U.S. citizens and citizens of other countries without due process of law. The PRC government uses arbitrary detention and exit bans to:

compel individuals to participate in PRC government investigations,
pressure family members to return to the PRC from abroad,
influence PRC authorities to resolve civil disputes in favor of PRC citizens, and
gain bargaining leverage over foreign governments.

In most cases, U.S. citizens only become aware of an exit ban when they attempt to depart the PRC, and there is no reliable mechanism or legal process to find out how long the ban might continue or to contest it in a court of law.

U.S. citizens traveling or residing in the PRC, including Hong Kong, may be detained without access to U.S. consular services or information about their alleged crime. U.S. citizens may be subjected to prolonged interrogations and extended detention without due process of law.

Foreigners in the PRC, including but not limited to businesspeople, former foreign government personnel, and journalists from Western countries, have been arbitrarily interrogated and detained by PRC officials for alleged violations of PRC national security laws. The PRC has also threatened, interrogated, detained, and expelled U.S. citizens living and working in the PRC."
https://travel.state.gov/content/travel/en/traveladvisories/traveladvisories/china-travel-advisory.html

That's the government talking...

" Chinese officials have told the Trump administration that security officers in China might detain American citizens if the Justice Department proceeds with prosecutions of arrested scholars who are members of the Chinese military, American officials said.

The Chinese officials conveyed the messages starting this summer, when the Justice Department intensified efforts to arrest and charge the scholars, mainly with providing false information on their visa applications, the American officials said. U.S. law enforcement officials say at least five Chinese scholars who have been arrested in recent months did not disclose their military affiliations on visa applications and might have been trying to conduct industrial espionage in research centers."
https://www.nytimes.com/2020/10/18/us/politics/china-us-threats-detain.html

A decade ago, things were quite different. Between Trump and Xi, the relationship soured. The State Dept bulletin only reflects what we've been seeing in the news, which is Americans being used as pawns, beaten by nationalists in the streets, etc.

Which makes wonder why you have such a complete inability to see that change. It's not like China has been subtle about it...

Chinese treat foreigners well.

To the extent Americans are being 'mistreated', it is a tit for tat. America started it, by fucking with Chinese people in America.

It is a dick measuring contest between the two superpowers.

Not fun to be caught in the middle of.

American jails are no better than Chinese jails though, and they arrest people here for all kinds of arbitrary shit.

In China, a 'civil dispute' is how they handle most legal situations.

If you get in a fight, they cart you to the police station, and work out a payment arrangement (no legal records).

I've heard that a foreigner is unlikely to win in this scenario. It has some to do with the language barrier. Some to do with the scene, and the patronage, sure.

Every time I got in a fight in China (with Chinese and with foreigners), the cops never became involved.

It is as though the predominant thing you mention here is the trouble that westerners have with the culture shock. Yeah, it is a thing.

But, I have lived in China and traveled in China, and you have read CNN propaganda articles. I don't like to denigrate your knowledge, and I know you are intelligent, but I've been there, and lived the life there. And, China is a cool place. Most of the bullshit you read is fear mongering.

Consider, who has it better? Americans in China, or Chinese in America?

I pretty much guarantee you Americans in China have it better.

In fact, the main experience of being an American in China is being treated with a lot of kindness by most people you meet, and that includes authorities.

[Rancid]

No, really, I'm being serious.

Straight people, as well as LGBTQ people, and women, will all *swear* that they're inherently, *biologically* that way, gender-wise -- as far as society is concerned I think *everyone* should have civil rights around whatever their gender / transgender identity happens to be.

What does this have to do with sensory overload?

[Unthinking Majority]

Again, I think you're mixing *contexts* here -- you're not a member of the DSA, so you're not obligated in any way to abide by that particular organizational political culture. Any concerns beyond that, as you've been alluding to, are *imaginary* on your part.

The title of this thread is "Is this where the West is heading?". So that's the question, not whether the DSA should stop doing whatever they want, because I don't really care, besides having a good chuckle at it.

Like a good comrade you're defending your comrades I get that.

10 years ago I never would have imagined half the woke nonsense we've started to see in the last 5 years or so. If we assume society has become more hyper-sensitive and less resilient over the years, and progressive PC changes to social norms have increases over the years as they do, and many of them begin via the young university crowd, I have reason to ask "is this where we're heading"?

Hey, what organization are you with, so that *I* can make recommendations about how to behave *there* -- ?

I'm free to call out bad ideas as I see fit, regardless of organization. I'm not trying to stop them from doing as they want, i'm saying don't bring this crap into my realm. If they start doing this stuff in university classrooms that's likely the canary in the coal mine.

Psychologizing again. Great. Instead of doing politics you'd rather do wholesale character assassination. Cliched.

I'll make whatever arguments I want and you're free to label it however you wish, that doesn't mean creating a label like "cliched" or "character assassination" is any kind of argument in response to my comments.

[Unthinking Majority]

What does this have to do with sensory overload?

Trans people want rights. They want to be called by their chosen pronoun. That's fine and reasonable in my view. But is the solution for everyone, trans or not, to announce their pronouns prior to speaking? Seems inefficient to me. If your sex doesn't match your gender then make an announcement, otherwise I don't see the purpose, other than making trans people feel a bit more comfortable because everyone is doing it and not just them.

So in this case making a marginalized group (trans people) feel more comfortable is given preference over efficiency of communication, which IMO won't be a sustainable solution to the problem given how inefficient the solution is. There needs to be a compromise between "compassion" and "function".

[ckaihatsu]

No, really, I'm being serious.

Straight people, as well as LGBTQ people, and women, will all *swear* that they're inherently, *biologically* that way, gender-wise -- as far as society is concerned I think *everyone* should have civil rights around whatever their gender / transgender identity happens to be.

What does this have to do with sensory overload?

Again, that's an *internal* matter -- you and your ilk keep projecting this interpersonal culture out onto an imaginary 'DSA government' or 'DSA world', implying that authoritarian / Stalinist means would be implemented to *force* *everyone* to abide by this particular organizational / civil culture -- that's *mixing contexts*.


---

The title of this thread is "Is this where the West is heading?". So that's the question, not whether the DSA should stop doing whatever they want, because I don't really care, besides having a good chuckle at it.

If you're so indifferent to left-wing political culture, you're certainly *opinionated* enough about it, to the extent of making *suggestions* regarding it.

Like a good comrade you're defending your comrades I get that.

Well, to be fair, the DSA isn't congruent with my particular politics, so 'comrades' would be a bit of a stretch. I'd say that I'm pointing out that you're *overstepping*, and being *imposing*.

10 years ago I never would have imagined half the woke nonsense we've started to see in the last 5 years or so. If we assume society has become more hyper-sensitive and less resilient over the years, and progressive PC changes to social norms have increases over the years as they do, and many of them begin via the young university crowd, I have reason to ask "is this where we're heading"?

Okay, then, with that, I'd say we're back 'on topic'.

People can certainly be more socially conscious if they want to be -- what matters, politics-wise, is what social policies the *government* enforces, such as gay marriage and insurance, etc., for the same, for example.

I'm free to call out bad ideas as I see fit, regardless of organization. I'm not trying to stop them from doing as they want, i'm saying don't bring this crap into my realm. If they start doing this stuff in university classrooms that's likely the canary in the coal mine.

Universities, by definition, are *private* institutions, as far as I know, so maybe what's more-to-the-point is what policies are at *public*, *state* colleges.

I'll make whatever arguments I want and you're free to label it however you wish, that doesn't mean creating a label like "cliched" or "character assassination" is any kind of argument in response to my comments.

What I'm saying is that *objectively*, you're *mixing scales* -- politics is about *mass* scales, meaning social policy, basically, but then you're conflating *group demographics* with politics / policy, erroneously. It's apples-and-oranges.


---

Fitting new ideas into society, well they are untested and sometimes they work, sometimes they don't. There hasn't been a centuries of trial and error yet to reach a new social equilibrium to where it works and society is able to more or less efficiently function to most peoples satisfaction. Any business that would try to have large meetings like this would fail because they'd simply be wasting too much time. People will figure things outs over time.

I think this is another fallacy / misconception, that a left-wing political organization should resemble a *business organization* in character and composition.

Again, it's apples-and-oranges -- business is *all about* hierarchy, based on wealth / profits, while a left-wing political organization is more about promoting *equality*, and taking whatever pains are required to practice that kind of social consciousness.


3-Dimensional Axes of Social Reality

Spoiler: show

[Noumenon]

There's nothing wrong with some guilt for the oppressed, compassion or pity for the less fortunate. Not having any of that makes someone a sociopath. As you say it's about taking things to an extreme point.

I'm not anti young liberal, I used to be one once. Young people bring new ideas. When you cast off old social norms and introduce new ones, like say gender pronouns, to be more inclusive of others for example, you're often doing away with old norms that have reached some kind of social equilibrium. These things have reached that equilibrium through decades or centuries of trial and error and they exist because society has decided that they work.

Fitting new ideas into society, well they are untested and sometimes they work, sometimes they don't. There hasn't been a centuries of trial and error yet to reach a new social equilibrium to where it works and society is able to more or less efficiently function to most peoples satisfaction. Any business that would try to have large meetings like this would fail because they'd simply be wasting too much time. People will figure things outs over time.

It's like introducing new widespread ideas into society like divorce and socially acceptable pre-marital sex etc. We're finding out that there were good reasons why divorce was frowned on as was pre-marital sex, and it wasn't all about "controlling women". Having a society filled with broken families and fatherless children is not good for society. So adjustments need to be made like creating norms of always using birth control, or don't be so cavalier when seeking divorce.

Certainly, I think we should go easy on "the youth" a little bit, we all believed some dumb stuff when we were young. At the same time, there needs to be "adults in the room" mitigating the nonsense, and I don't see that happening. I see them joining in and even teaching that ultra-PC is the way to achieve social change. It is fine to have ambitions of changing the culture in a positive direction. But there exists a point where the direction of energy is not outwards, but inwards in a kind of circle-jerk of self-congratulation and performativity about how woke you are.

This is a symptom of the cultural left getting greedy. It has already basically achieved hegemony in media, university, tech corporations, military - even four star generals are now reading critical race theory. Psychologically, it acts as a substitute for the fact that the number of significant progressive economic victories in recent history can be counted on 0 fingers. Keep pressing on what you feel like you can change, even to the point of diminishing or negative returns, because the real area that needs change seems like a brick wall. And a big reason for that is that "There is No Alternative" to capitalism. No one has a real answer of "what happens after the revolution." We should be giving serious thought to these questions - and maybe even deeply challenging the assumptions on which the questions are based - and creating a realistic plan of action. Instead we have DSA larping.

[Rancid]

Trans people want rights. They want to be called by their chosen pronoun. That's fine and reasonable in my view. But is the solution for everyone, trans or not, to announce their pronouns prior to speaking? Seems inefficient to me. If your sex doesn't match your gender then make an announcement, otherwise I don't see the purpose, other than making trans people feel a bit more comfortable because everyone is doing it and not just them.

So in this case making a marginalized group (trans people) feel more comfortable is given preference over efficiency of communication, which IMO won't be a sustainable solution to the problem given how inefficient the solution is. There needs to be a compromise between "compassion" and "function".

Yea, of course.

Again, that's an *internal* matter -- you and your ilk keep projecting this interpersonal culture out onto an imaginary 'DSA government' or 'DSA world', implying that authoritarian / Stalinist means would be implemented to *force* *everyone* to abide by this particular organizational / civil culture -- that's *mixing contexts*.

Well, if you go back to my original point(s). My suspicion/hope is that these people will likely not ascend to any sort of real power/influence, hence they aren't much to worry about. However, we did say that about the MAGA types some years (arguably decades) ago. In other words, sure it's an internal matter for the moment, however it does have the potential to affect us all in the future. Thus, it's worth talking about. Stop trying to pin me in your stupid little box. Fuck your box.

Why are you trying to shut me up? Why don't like my thoughts that are different from your own? WHy do you hate diversity of thought? Why are you not respecting my wishes to be heard? You monster.

[Unthinking Majority]

If you're so indifferent to left-wing political culture, you're certainly *opinionated* enough about it, to the extent of making *suggestions* regarding it.

If there was zero chance I'd ever have to personally deal with the solutions to the social problems the DSA is trying to solve I wouldn't really care other than laughing. What alarms me is that there's young people solving organizational problems with, IMO, such terrible solutions. That people this illogical exist is a problem in its own right. That someday these solutions will be implemented in an organization that actually does affect me is a bigger problem I'm worried about. Time to criticize them before that happens, before they become acceptable norms I'll be asked to comply with or else lose my job or otherwise be thrown out of whatever room i'm in.

Well, to be fair, the DSA isn't congruent with my particular politics, so 'comrades' would be a bit of a stretch. I'd say that I'm pointing out that you're *overstepping*, and being *imposing*.

I'm not telling the DSA to do anything. I'm discussing solutions to social problems that the DSA is highlighting. I don't agree with some of their solutions, and I don't want these solutions imposed on me some day, which is the point of this thread. The fact that some groups of young people are this bad at problem solving should be alarming to us, especially when the youngins and leftists start shame/guilting the rest of us into complying with their solutions or else label us racist transphobes and whatnot. This isn't isolated to the DSA, it extends to a lot of the woke nonsense.

People can certainly be more socially conscious if they want to be -- what matters, politics-wise, is what social policies the *government* enforces, such as gay marriage and insurance, etc., for the same, for example.

Politics is power relations between people, typically large groups. This extends beyond government policy. If my organization is someday guilt-shamed into applying some of these bad solutions and I'll be fired if I don't comply, this is power and this is politics.

What I'm saying is that *objectively*, you're *mixing scales* -- politics is about *mass* scales, meaning social policy, basically, but then you're conflating *group demographics* with politics / policy, erroneously. It's apples-and-oranges.

I haven't mentioned politics or policy, but you keep bringing it up. I consider this a strawman. Ideology and wokeness, when enforced through social pressure, is politics in my eyes. The DSA way of extreme social accommodation is not isolated to this one event, it's part of a much wider movement.

[Unthinking Majority]

This is a symptom of the cultural left getting greedy. It has already basically achieved hegemony in media, university, tech corporations, military - even four star generals are now reading critical race theory. Psychologically, it acts as a substitute for the fact that the number of significant progressive economic victories in recent history can be counted on 0 fingers. Keep pressing on what you feel like you can change, even to the point of diminishing or negative returns, because the real area that needs change seems like a brick wall. And a big reason for that is that "There is No Alternative" to capitalism. No one has a real answer of "what happens after the revolution." We should be giving serious thought to these questions - and maybe even deeply challenging the assumptions on which the questions are based - and creating a realistic plan of action. Instead we have DSA larping.

The far leftists don't know how to create an alternative to capitalism so they're achieving social change the only way they can make gains, which would be to guilt-shame people and organizations into compliance or else call them racists, sexists, transphobes and the like. Businesses don't want the bad PR of being called racist on twitter, so they will comply without a fight. So the left is using the profit-motive of capitalists for their own political gain, which is a brilliant tactic discovered by accident but no less useful. And it can be used not just toward businesses, but to anyone who cares about reputation, which is most people. People don't like being called a racist homophobe.