Why Free Markets, Contracts, and Private Property Are a Joke - Page 4 - Politics Forum.org | PoFo

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#15210547
Rancid wrote:A contract is a contract.


:lol: :lol:

This joke was told to the First Nations repeatedly, as the British-Americans hilariously signed one joke contract after another.

Knock Knock?
... Who's there?
Treaty.
...Treaty who?
Treaty my ass. You're a dead man! haha.

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https://www.history.com/news/native-ame ... n-treaties
#15211469
QatzelOk wrote:

:lol: :lol:




A hammer is a tool.

You can use it to build someone a home, or hit them on the head, and kill them.

A contract is also a tool.

After the USSR fell, we sent a lot of people there to help them set up a market economy. A lot of it went well. But the idea that contracts are binding did not. Too many saw a contract as a way to get a bribe, or worse. Like when Putin arranged to have a kid buy a billion dollar oil company for $17.

Putin cut a lot of deals like that, making him one of the richest men in the world. And severely damaging the Russian economy.

Contracts create value. If you don't own something, you are simply not going to invest in it. It's one of the cornerstones of Rule of Law.

You're not only throwing the baby out with the bathwater, you didn't see the importance of that baby.
#15211472
late wrote:A contract is also a tool.

A Lie is also a tool, at least if you ask a liar.

Ten Commandments are also a tool (thou shalt not steal), as is religious proselytizing.

Nuclear weapons are tools, and so is genocide.

If your only defense of stealing by breaking contracts is "it's a tool," then your only real function in any debate is to identify the tools that were used. You should stay out of any argument that touches on the ethical side of violent use of tools.

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Here's what your Thread Test would look like if you were a teacher:

1. Identify the tools that were used to reduce the number of First Nations in the Americas. (50 pts)

2. Identify the verbs and prepositions in the above sentence. (25 pts)

3. How many letters does "genocide" contain? (25 pts)

4. (voluntary questions worth zero points) What is morality? What is the ideal way to treat other people?
#15211504
late wrote:
A hammer is a tool.

You can use it to build someone a home, or hit them on the head, and kill them.

A contract is also a tool.



It's really moreso a *social relation* -- part of the superstructure.


late wrote:
After the USSR fell, we sent a lot of people there to help them set up a market economy. A lot of it went well. But the idea that contracts are binding did not. Too many saw a contract as a way to get a bribe, or worse. Like when Putin arranged to have a kid buy a billion dollar oil company for $17.



Syndicalism. Also corporatism, Stalinism, and anyone's household.


late wrote:
Putin cut a lot of deals like that, making him one of the richest men in the world. And severely damaging the Russian economy.

Contracts create value. If you don't own something, you are simply not going to invest in it.



And yet much of the world's computers are currently running open-source software, outside of the profit motive proper. There are wildlife preserves, etc.


late wrote:
It's one of the cornerstones of Rule of Law.

You're not only throwing the baby out with the bathwater, you didn't see the importance of that baby.
#15211621
ckaihatsu wrote:

It's really moreso a *social relation* -- part of the superstructure.





Let me start with a writing tip, no offense intended, English drives everyone crazy. Moreso is awkward there. Something like 'more of' would work better. I think the word is a bit archaic, which is a plus in my book, but there aren't many here with my vocabulary.

Yes, it is part of the "superstructure". That's my point, without Rule of Law pretty much everything goes to hell.
#15211628
late wrote:
Let me start with a writing tip, no offense intended, English drives everyone crazy. Moreso is awkward there. Something like 'more of' would work better. I think the word is a bit archaic, which is a plus in my book, but there aren't many here with my vocabulary.

Yes, it is part of the "superstructure". That's my point, without Rule of Law pretty much everything goes to hell.



Ehhhhh, to me the writing thing is just a means to an end, for here, basically. I'm not *that* picky about wording -- you know, just so it's not *distracting* and deleterious.

We're not exactly in paradise *now*, so rule-of-law is a historical *curiosity* itself -- what matters is who gets to do what, etc. Class politics.
#15211644
It really stumped late when ckaihatsu wrote:It's really moreso a *social relation* -- part of the superstructure.

Let me try to explain what this means.

My example wrote:
If I have a hammer, I can become a carpenter. I can build houses. I can use just a tiny effort to smash something really hard.

Because I have this tool, I will not learn how to cook or sew.

If I run out of food or clothing, I can threaten a cook or seamstress with the hammer.

I am so glad I have this "construction" tool to threaten other specialists with.

**the writer is later killed by a cook holding a large knife, and a seamstress holding a crochet needle**


Conclusion: Tools aren't neutral objects at all.
They create a way of relating to other people which is NEW and UNNATURAL.
#15211680
ckaihatsu wrote:
We're not exactly in paradise *now*, so rule-of-law is a historical *curiosity* itself -- what matters is who gets to do what, etc. Class politics.



late wrote:
First Rule of Holes, when you're in one, stop digging.



What the *hell* are you talking about -- ?


QatzelOk wrote:
Conclusion: Tools aren't neutral objects at all.
They create a way of relating to other people which is NEW and UNNATURAL.



No, this is incorrect, Qatzel -- society has *not* been driven-on and developed due to technology itself. You're sounding like you're in the Jared Diamond guns-germs-and-steel camp of *technological determinism*.

Society moves onward due to the balance of class forces in the ongoing class struggle, as with the ruling class becoming *merchants* instead of the former royalty / nobility / *aristocracy*, due to the increased mobility of serfs and slaves off of the feudal estates.
#15211700
Tools aren't neutral objects at all.
They create a way of relating to other people which is NEW and UNNATURAL.


ckaihatsu wrote:No, this is incorrect, Qatzel -- society has *not* been driven-on and developed due to technology itself.


I didn't say that technologies drive society.

What I said is that each tech forces humans to warp their natural behavior, and that this new sublimation of instincts creates an uncomfortable "new normal."

And that with each one of these new normals, humanity is farther from its natural self, and gets caught up in a pointless loop of work-arounds and patches.

This is why we keep breaking treaties - we have lost our ability to tell the truth or have healthy relationships because... we are lost in technological work-arounds.
#15211702
QatzelOk wrote:
Tools aren't neutral objects at all.
They create a way of relating to other people which is NEW and UNNATURAL.




I didn't say that technologies drive society.

What I said is that each tech forces humans to warp their natural behavior, and that this new sublimation of instincts creates an uncomfortable "new normal."

And that with each one of these new normals, humanity is farther from its natural self, and gets caught up in a pointless loop of work-arounds and patches.

This is why we keep breaking treaties - we have lost our ability to tell the truth or have healthy relationships because... we are lost in technological work-arounds.



(I'd like to note that we're now outside the domain of political economy.)

This is basically *philosophical*, since it pertains more to various historical parties' *inter-relational* histories rather than to the more-societal issue of does-technology-drive-society-or-not.

You believe in a 'natural self' formulation for humanity, and I *don't*. Certainly there are genetic / biological normals, like eating, sleeping, etc., but that's a broad blank-slate, and humanity has done much for good and ill *on top* of that physiological baseline.

The U.S. Westward Expansion was 'internal' imperialism and genocide.


History, Macro-Micro -- Political (Cognitive) Dissonance

Spoiler: show
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History, Macro-Micro -- politics-logistics-lifestyle

Spoiler: show
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#15211830
QatzelOk wrote:
Tools aren't neutral objects at all.
They create a way of relating to other people which is NEW and UNNATURAL.



I didn't say that technologies drive society.



This is why we keep breaking treaties - we have lost our ability to tell the truth or have healthy relationships because... we are lost in technological work-arounds.



Even if you live in a cave, and generate your electricity with a converted bicycle, you are using a computer to 'talk' to me. Which is new and unnatural. Stay warm in that cave, you don't want to get sick, you can't use that new and unnatural medical health care. I can keep going, you know..

Depending on how you meant that, I would say tech can drive societies. The printing press made the Reformation possible, setting off generations of war between Catholics and Protestants..

Before humans evolved, some primates attacked and slaughtered tribes over territory. Sounds a lot like war to me. Competing over resources goes back even further. Ever hear of Darwin? We need to learn how to not do that.
#15211859
Sad that two posters recycled the "if you criticize technology, you aren't allowed to use a computer" red herring.

Guys, Malherbe had some serious criticisms of how Latin-in-France was being spoken and written in his day.

But thank goodness the people of France let him speak, because... he ended up inventing written French.

late wrote:The printing press made the Reformation possible

The Reformation was a re-arrangement of the straight-jacket of Christianity which was forced onto Europeans by people who wanted to dominate them. The Reformation was like when seat-belts were added to cars. A minor adjustment to a deadly tech.

Unthinking Majority wrote:Please stop using language

If I do, the liars will win. The liars have given us most of our language tools, by the way. Which means that most of our language tools have been.... booby-trapped.

...

ckaihatsu wrote:(I'd like to note that we're now outside the domain of political economy.)

The OP title mentions what a "joke" some of the components of contractual capitalism are. This use of the word "joke" suggests that philosophy will be a useful tool in understanding what makes this "joke" funny or unfunny.

Likewise, when people laugh at stupid jokes, it says something about their general culture, and not just the economic system they live under.
#15211865
QatzelOk wrote:
1) Sad that two posters recycled the "if you criticize technology, you aren't allowed to use a computer" red herring.


2) The Reformation was a re-arrangement of the straight-jacket of Christianity which was forced onto Europeans by people who wanted to dominate them. The Reformation was like when seat-belts were added to cars. A minor adjustment to a deadly tech.




1) Now that's disappointing.. Make up your mind, or is it ok when you use tech, but not the rest of us?

2) The Reformation was a rejection of Catholicism. It set off a bunch of wars. The point is that the printing press made it possible, it wouldn't have happened without it. It was the first mass communication. Luther printed 10 copies and sent them to friends who all made 10 copies and sent them to their friends. Thousands of copies were made, and traveled the length and breadth of Europe. You could also call it the most consequential chain letter in history, and not by a small margin.

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