[QatzelOk]

ckaihatsu, thanks for this citation.

One key leader was agricultural scientist Norman Borlaug, the "Father of the Green Revolution", who received the Nobel Peace Prize in 1970. He is credited with saving over a billion people from starvation...

Yes, and Victims of Communism museums seem to suggest that Germany "saved" millions of lives during WW2. Maybe this is why the USA voted against the UN motion condemning Naziism? Whatever **works** in killing the germ-of-the-day.

Remember: Under Nazi governance, the main GERM was communism and socialism. Of course there were others. It was a hygiene crusade. And they were very dedicated germ-fighters just like the early Crusaders were.

And as for the Green Revolution patriarch winning a Nobel Peace Prize... Obama won one for droning American citizens and starting two wars in the Middle East and North Africa that are still itching to turn into WW3. So that prize is more like a weight around his neck. It means that the oligarchs really appreciated his **germ-killing initiative.**

[ckaihatsu]

ckaihatsu, thanks for this citation.


One key leader was agricultural scientist Norman Borlaug, the "Father of the Green Revolution", who received the Nobel Peace Prize in 1970. He is credited with saving over a billion people from starvation...


Image


Yes, and Victims of Communism museums seem to suggest that Germany "saved" millions of lives during WW2. Maybe this is why the USA voted against the UN motion condemning Naziism? Whatever **works** in killing the germ-of-the-day.

Remember: Under Nazi governance, the main GERM was communism and socialism. Of course there were others. It was a hygiene crusade. And they were very dedicated germ-fighters just like the early Crusaders were.

And as for the Green Revolution patriarch winning a Nobel Peace Prize... Obama won one for droning American citizens and starting two wars in the Middle East and North Africa that are still itching to turn into WW3. So that prize is more like a weight around his neck. It means that the oligarchs really appreciated his **germ-killing initiative.**

This is apples-and-oranges, Qatzel -- you certainly *can* critique the prize-awarders and prize-recipients if you like, for the reasons you've given, *but* are you actually addressing the *upside* to industrial farming.

It cuts *against* your doom-and-gloom, glass-half-empty attitude / position regarding technological usage.

[QatzelOk]

This is apples-and-oranges, Qatzel -- you certainly *can* critique the prize-awarders and prize-recipients if you like, for the reasons you've given, *but* are you actually addressing the *upside* to industrial farming.

It cuts *against* your doom-and-gloom, glass-half-empty attitude / position regarding technological usage.

Is the bolded part a question?

I don't understand what you have written here.

[ckaihatsu]

the *upside* to industrial farming.

Is the bolded part a question?

I don't understand what you have written here.

Sorry, Qatzel, but I gotta call it: *Politically* you're indigenous-nationalist-separatist -- which is *understandable*, but not really *viable*, with all due respect.

You can summarily *dismiss* the influx of white European settlers, et al, with a wave of your hand, but yet, with a shift in *perspective*, it's simply a spillover of the larger, *world's* population, so *there*.

Is localist *land* the 'identity-politics' at play here -- again, with all due respect.

Also consider the 'journeyman' proletariat:

[T]here are a great many people who, having no private property of their own, and being always on the brink of sheer starvation, are compelled to do the work of beasts of burden, to do work that is quite uncongenial to them, and to which they are forced by the peremptory, unreasonable, degrading Tyranny of want. These are the poor, and amongst them there is no grace of manner, or charm of speech, or civilisation, or culture, or refinement in pleasures, or joy of life. From their collective force Humanity gains much in material prosperity. But it is only the material result that it gains, and the man who is poor is in himself absolutely of no importance. He is merely the infinitesimal atom of a force that, so far from regarding him, crushes him: indeed, prefers him crushed, as in that case he is far more obedient.

https://www.marxists.org/reference/arch ... /soul-man/

[ckaihatsu]

spillover

This *isn't* quite the word I'd like to use, because of the English-versus-French attitudes and treatments, as you've noted in the past.


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category: ... n_genocide

[ckaihatsu]

identity-politics

---


Ideologies & Operations -- Fundamentals

Spoiler: show

[QatzelOk]

Sorry, Qatzel, but I gotta call it: *Politically* you're indigenous-nationalist-separatist -- which is *understandable*, but not really *viable*, with all due respect.

It looks like you've found a "germ" in my logic and are trying to eradicated it by calling it **not viable**.

Why not **work with me** instead of trying to find "germs" that have been identified by many of the political theorists (cleansing writers) of the commercial recent past?

You can summarily *dismiss* the influx of white European settlers, et al, with a wave of your hand, but yet, with a shift in *perspective*, it's simply a spillover of the larger, *world's* population, so *there*.

I would never dismiss the importance of this influx of European germ-killers. They were very important in bringing the entire earth to where we are now - dying of the fabricated sterility of the Natural World from which all life emerges.

And "hand-waving" looks like another ostensible "germ" that you want to soak overnight and then hand-wash using lukewarm water.

[ckaihatsu]

Sorry, Qatzel, but I gotta call it: *Politically* you're indigenous-nationalist-separatist -- which is *understandable*, but not really *viable*, with all due respect.

It looks like you've found a "germ" in my logic and are trying to eradicated it by calling it **not viable**.

Why not **work with me** instead of trying to find "germs" that have been identified by many of the political theorists (cleansing writers) of the commercial recent past?

To *clarify*, I'm saying that there *has* to be some reconciling of the *past*, with the *present*.


[2] G.U.T.S.U.C., Simplified

Spoiler: show

I think smaller communities shouldn't be harassed, dehumanized, and ethnically cleansed, as has happened historically on the part of Westerners.

That said, I also think that *everyone* has to deal with the emergent, real dynamic of *modernization* -- maybe about every 25 years or so. Perhaps you'd like to address *this* societal phenomenon?

You can summarily *dismiss* the influx of white European settlers, et al, with a wave of your hand, but yet, with a shift in *perspective*, it's simply a spillover of the larger, *world's* population, so *there*.

I would never dismiss the importance of this influx of European germ-killers. They were very important in bringing the entire earth to where we are now - dying of the fabricated sterility of the Natural World from which all life emerges.

And "hand-waving" looks like another ostensible "germ" that you want to soak overnight and then hand-wash using lukewarm water.

No, I meant 'with a wave of your hand' to indicate a certain *discretion* that you have, arguably, as being indigenously 'here-first' in the 'New World'.

Do the past European migrants to the U.S. -- not just for land speculation -- have any role to play in the 'modernization' of the 'New World' -- ?

[ckaihatsu]

**work with me**

---


Interpersonal Meanings

Spoiler: show

Anatomy of a Platform

Spoiler: show

[QatzelOk]

I think smaller communities shouldn't be harassed, dehumanized, and ethnically cleansed, as has happened historically on the part of Westerners.

That said, I also think that *everyone* has to deal with the emergent, real dynamic of *modernization* -- maybe about every 25 years or so. Perhaps you'd like to address *this* societal phenomenon?

By "modernization," I think you mean "technological changes that impact the order of society." Like if we had to wear masks permanently, or get a new vaccine every other week. This kind of "modernization." Always sold as being improved because "new germs will be killed."

And while it's nice that you think that small communities shouldn't be genocided off the face of the earth, do you think the colonists who do this should be encouraged to stay in these countries forever? I mean, the Iraqis were only allowed to stay in Kuwait for a year or so, and the Harkis who had settled in colonializing Algeria were sent back to France during de-colonization.

The Harkis weren't *germs* themselves, but they were European "germ-removers" whose main germs that they were attacking were local sovereignty and local traditions.

In order to let these things return and develop, the germ-killers were sent back to France. Would this be a good strategy for the First Nations of the Americas? Seems like the Americas are among the very few colonial constructs that were never de-colonized. The cowboy killers of "the First Nations" germ... are still killing the traditions and hopes of the local commuities they displaced through mass murder (massive germ eradication).

No, I meant 'with a wave of your hand' to indicate a certain *discretion* that you have, arguably, as being indigenously 'here-first' in the 'New World'.

Do the past European migrants to the U.S. -- not just for land speculation -- have any role to play in the 'modernization' of the 'New World' -- ?

See reference to Harkis in Algeria, above.

[ckaihatsu]

By "modernization," I think you mean "technological changes that impact the order of society." Like if we had to wear masks permanently, or get a new vaccine every other week. This kind of "modernization." Always sold as being improved because "new germs will be killed."

And while it's nice that you think that small communities shouldn't be genocided off the face of the earth, do you think the colonists who do this should be encouraged to stay in these countries forever? I mean, the Iraqis were only allowed to stay in Kuwait for a year or so, and the Harkis who had settled in colonializing Algeria were sent back to France during de-colonization.

The Harkis weren't *germs* themselves, but they were European "germ-removers" whose main germs that they were attacking were local sovereignty and local traditions.

In order to let these things return and develop, the germ-killers were sent back to France. Would this be a good strategy for the First Nations of the Americas? Seems like the Americas are among the very few colonial constructs that were never de-colonized. The cowboy killers of "the First Nations" germ... are still killing the traditions and hopes of the local commuities they displaced through mass murder (massive germ eradication).

Certainly -- and it's the *populations* / people that need to be put first, as you're indicating. Here's *my* way of putting it:


[10] Supply prioritization in a socialist transitional economy

Spoiler: show

I won't *press* the 'modernization' / tech issue, but should all peoples of, say, 1800, *continue* to live in that same societal environment of the year 1800, forever onward -- ?

[QatzelOk]

I outed your secret chart in order to let people enjoy it without the extra click.

What's interesting about Maslowe's Needs Ladder is that it is Terrain oriented, rather than germocentric.

And therefore, it has a post-germ-killer future.

I won't *press* the 'modernization' / tech issue, but should all peoples of, say, 1800, *continue* to live in that same societal environment of the year 1800, forever onward -- ?

When re-imagining a sustainable and healthy world, I don't imagine that any period in technological development is "ideal."


Instead, by applying terrain-related things like the Needs Latter, along with our knowledge of the planet's ecological limits (more terrain).... humanity might come up with something that could last for more than a few centuries (the duration of most empires). The reason empires have a best-before date... is because their practices usually devolve into germ-killing - and all the other unabsorbed nations eventually get targetted as *germ-ridden-enemies* when the empire's other scams (foreign and domestic) start to fall apart.

In other words, germ-killing civilizations are always a long-term failure, and humanity has to stop living under this cloud of lies.

[ckaihatsu]

I outed your secret chart in order to let people enjoy it without the extra click.

What's interesting about Maslowe's Needs Ladder is that it is Terrain oriented, rather than germocentric.

And therefore, it has a post-germ-killer future.

When re-imagining a sustainable and healthy world, I don't imagine that any period in technological development is "ideal."


Instead, by applying terrain-related things like the Needs Latter, along with our knowledge of the planet's ecological limits (more terrain).... humanity might come up with something that could last for more than a few centuries (the duration of most empires). The reason empires have a best-before date... is because their practices usually devolve into germ-killing - and all the other unabsorbed nations eventually get targetted as *germ-ridden-enemies* when the empire's other scams (foreign and domestic) start to fall apart.

In other words, germ-killing civilizations are always a long-term failure, and humanity has to stop living under this cloud of lies.

Okay, it's good that there's a common-language here -- and that's the *point* of the diagram(s), it's what they can do.

(The typical 'spoiler' tag for each graphic image is a matter of *etiquette*, so that the reader isn't imposed-upon with non-text / graphical content by default.)

I have to make a distinction here, though, between 'empires', and 'civilizations', since they're not both the same. I think any regular person *would* tend to associate the two together, but the argument here is that that association of terms is *historical*, and not-necessarily *inevitable*.


Social Production Worldview

Spoiler: show

And:


Civilization - Humanity Framework

Spoiler: show

[QatzelOk]

I have to make a distinction here, though, between 'empires', and 'civilizations', since they're not both the same. I think any regular person *would* tend to associate the two together, but the argument here is that that association of terms is *historical*, and not-necessarily *inevitable*.

This is an interesting precision. I think that, to distinguish between empire and civilization, you have to calculate what percentage of the changes-to-practices were *forced* and what percent were *voluntary.*

This isn't an easy distinction to make because germ-killing technology tends to force itself onto everyone. Look at how germ-killing automobiles...
("germs" = escape to the fresh air of suburbia! avoid scary people lurking in the inner city! avoid long walks and schlepping around with heavy objects!)
... ended up killing many more things, like the community arrangements that kids need to grow up properly, or the wars that oil-seeking created (all germ-justified... germs=regimes, authoritarianism, etc.)...

This suggests that all germ-killing civilizations end up as empires. And that most if not all technologies have a "germ-killing" agenda.

[ckaihatsu]

This is an interesting precision. I think that, to distinguish between empire and civilization, you have to calculate what percentage of the changes-to-practices were *forced* and what percent were *voluntary.*

Yes. Terrific. Excellent.

A post-scarcity / post-capitalist politics would be *all-about* eliminating the 'forced' aspect -- meaning:

Oscar Wilde 1891

The Soul of Man under Socialism

The chief advantage that would result from the establishment of Socialism is, undoubtedly, the fact that Socialism would relieve us from that sordid necessity of living for others which, in the present condition of things, presses so hardly upon almost everybody. In fact, scarcely anyone at all escapes.

https://www.marxists.org/reference/arch ... /soul-man/

---

This isn't an easy distinction to make because germ-killing technology tends to force itself onto everyone. Look at how germ-killing automobiles...
("germs" = escape to the fresh air of suburbia! avoid scary people lurking in the inner city! avoid long walks and schlepping around with heavy objects!)
... ended up killing many more things, like the community arrangements that kids need to grow up properly, or the wars that oil-seeking created (all germ-justified... germs=regimes, authoritarianism, etc.)...

This suggests that all germ-killing civilizations end up as empires. And that most if not all technologies have a "germ-killing" agenda.

I'll argue that it's civilizations *on the downslope*, that are prone to the social-ills / 'germ-killing' / demonizing / fetishizing that you're describing. Symptomatic of the 'death-spiral', perhaps, or the 'life cycle'.

I'll note that I've always found it *ironic* / sad that the members of the bourgeoisie *target their own* as consumers, for within whatever paradigm of '[consumer] society' happens to be prevailing at the moment. I think there's now a shaking-out going on, since around the pandemic, or fairly soon before, to 'rationalize' moreso around the now-intermeshed global digital society.

Isn't the *Internet* an example of here-and-now terrain-*improving* / infrastructural, 'good' technology -- ?

[QatzelOk]

A post-scarcity / post-capitalist politics would be *all-about* eliminating the 'forced' aspect -- meaning: "Socialism would relieve us from that sordid necessity of living for others" - Wilde

Forcing people to "live for others" is what happens when the daily routine that the current technology offers is... unbearable. Otherwise, in the absence of technology, living for others is the same thing as living for yourself.

Forcing people to convert to sedentary and boring routines (assembly line, suburbia, etc.) means that the state that forces us to convert to these things... then has to force everyone to get along. Damaged people cannot be expected to be harmonious with other damaged humans.

These damaged humans are often represented as "A new germ!" by the oligarch class that has forced everyone into a toxic routine. Working class women get poisoned by contaminated rye: Witch germ! Inner city kids get poisoned by lead in gasolone: Gangster germ!

I'll argue that it's civilizations *on the downslope*, that are prone to the social-ills / 'germ-killing' / demonizing / fetishizing that you're describing. Symptomatic of the 'death-spiral', perhaps, or the 'life cycle'.

But since **every civilization** eventually finds itself on that down-slope.... and since these down slopes could one day prove fatal.... doesn't that mean that civilization itself might be a problem?

Isn't the *Internet* an example of here-and-now terrain-*improving* / infrastructural, 'good' technology -- ?

Well, it has the potential of replacing the "man in the street" creation of oligarch media with the voices of real people. The real people are the terrain (while fake "man on the streets" are often used to measure the acceptability of the next germ-eradication project. (Man on the street interviews about wars, for example)

[ckaihatsu]

Forcing people to "live for others" is what happens when the daily routine that the current technology offers is... unbearable. Otherwise, in the absence of technology, living for others is the same thing as living for yourself.

I *can't* agree -- you're just being *contrarian* / biased, in favor of your anti-technology ideological line.

As I recall you reached an *impasse* in your line once I raised the technological issue of urban *sewers* and personal *sanitation* / hygiene. Would you like to take a position on such civil *health* infrastructure -- ?

Forcing people to convert to sedentary and boring routines (assembly line, suburbia, etc.) means that the state that forces us to convert to these things... then has to force everyone to get along. Damaged people cannot be expected to be harmonious with other damaged humans.

These damaged humans are often represented as "A new germ!" by the oligarch class that has forced everyone into a toxic routine. Working class women get poisoned by contaminated rye: Witch germ! Inner city kids get poisoned by lead in gasolone: Gangster germ!

Okay, noted.

But since **every civilization** eventually finds itself on that down-slope.... and since these down slopes could one day prove fatal.... doesn't that mean that civilization itself might be a problem?

No -- I *thoroughly* disagree, because civilization is a *positive* as well as a negative.


Social Production Worldview

Spoiler: show

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Political economy

As Marxist philosophy, cultural hegemony analyses the functions of economic class within the base and superstructure, from which Gramsci developed the functions of social class within the social structures created for and by cultural domination. In the practise of imperialism, cultural hegemony occurs when the working and the peasant classes believe and accept that the prevailing cultural norms of a society (the dominant ideology imposed by the ruling class) realistically describes the natural order of things in society.

In the war for position, the working-class intelligentsia politically educate the working classes to perceive that the prevailing cultural norms are not natural and inevitable social conditions, and to recognize that the social constructs of bourgeois culture function as instruments of socio-economic domination, e.g. the institutions (state, church, and social strata), the conventions (custom and tradition), and beliefs (religions and ideologies), etc. That to realise their own working-class culture the workers and the peasants, by way of their own intellectuals, must perform the necessary analyses of their culture and national history in order for the proletariat to transcend the old ways of thinking about the order of things in a society under the cultural hegemony of an imperial power.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cultural_ ... al_economy

---

Isn't the *Internet* an example of here-and-now terrain-*improving* / infrastructural, 'good' technology -- ?

Well, it has the potential of replacing the "man in the street" creation of oligarch media with the voices of real people. The real people are the terrain (while fake "man on the streets" are often used to measure the acceptability of the next germ-eradication project. (Man on the street interviews about wars, for example)

Okay -- see, then, you're *okay* with the technology of the Internet for the most part, since it can 'outmaneuver', or drown-out, the corporate stuffed-shirt hacks.

[QatzelOk]

I *can't* agree -- you're just being *contrarian* / biased, in favor of your anti-technology ideological line.

What I was saying is that living for others (your band of humans) is totally natural and normal. But once you introduce *technologies*, you disrupt the natural relations of humans to the point where they no longer *care about* the things that they used to naturally *care about.* Loss of empathy will lead to extinction.

As I recall you reached an *impasse* in your line once I raised the technological issue of urban *sewers* and personal *sanitation* / hygiene. Would you like to take a position on such civil *health* infrastructure -- ?

Once populations reach unsusainable levels, attempts are made to *sustain* large populations using increasingly invasive technologies. As population density A is attained, urban sewers are necessary to avoid mass deaths. One pop density B is reached, humans will be locked in cells, tatooed and digitally tagged, and fed IV liquid food and drugs all day.

I *thoroughly* disagree, because civilization is a *positive* as well as a negative.

"In this cage, we're safe from wolves." - Toxic Positivity

[ckaihatsu]

I *can't* agree -- you're just being *contrarian* / biased, in favor of your anti-technology ideological line.

What I was saying is that living for others (your band of humans) is totally natural and normal. But once you introduce *technologies*, you disrupt the natural relations of humans to the point where they no longer *care about* the things that they used to naturally *care about.* Loss of empathy will lead to extinction.

I *appreciate* your concern, Qatzel, but I really think you're *overstating*, and inadvertently adding to the humanities-technology *schism* -- as I thought-of-it, back in school.


Humanities-Technology Chart 2.0

Spoiler: show

---


(Again.)

living for others (your band of humans) is totally natural and normal.

I'm noticing that your description here is congruent with my own 'worldview', incidentally:


Worldview Diagram

Spoiler: show

I'll contrast your 'living for others', with the Wilde essay intro of the same topic:

Oscar Wilde 1891

The Soul of Man under Socialism

The chief advantage that would result from the establishment of Socialism is, undoubtedly, the fact that Socialism would relieve us from that sordid necessity of living for others which, in the present condition of things, presses so hardly upon almost everybody. In fact, scarcely anyone at all escapes.

https://www.marxists.org/reference/arch ... /soul-man/

He's speaking of the *negative*, *obligatory* side of living-for-others, while you're speaking of the *positive*, *hunter-gatherer* side of the term. It's *romantic*, but it's also *idealist* since the most-likely-hypocritical critiquing of tech usage automatically assumes that we *shouldn't* live with tool-usage.

I can use the where-do-you-draw-the-line argument here, to ask if a 'band' *shouldn't* move to get closer to a fire that just happened to start after a lightning strike.

Would *that* be 'tool-usage' -- ? Would that one accidental life event warp everyone's minds to the point that their social ties would rapidly disintegrate -- ? Really? Isn't this actually a *stereotype*:

Xi and his San tribe[a] live happily in the Kalahari Desert, away from industrial civilization. One day, a glass Coca-Cola bottle is thrown out of an airplane by a pilot and falls to the ground unbroken. Initially, Xi's people assume the bottle to be a gift from their gods, just as they believe plants and animals are, and find many uses for it. Unlike other gifts, however, there is only one glass bottle, which causes unforeseen conflict within the tribe. As a result, Xi, wearing only a loincloth, decides to make a pilgrimage to the edge of the world and dispose of the divisive object.

https://en.wikipedia.org//wiki/The_Gods_Must_Be_Crazy

---

As I recall you reached an *impasse* in your line once I raised the technological issue of urban *sewers* and personal *sanitation* / hygiene. Would you like to take a position on such civil *health* infrastructure -- ?

Once populations reach unsusainable levels, attempts are made to *sustain* large populations using increasingly invasive technologies. As population density A is attained, urban sewers are necessary to avoid mass deaths. One pop density B is reached, humans will be locked in cells, tatooed and digitally tagged, and fed IV liquid food and drugs all day.

---

I *thoroughly* disagree, because civilization is a *positive* as well as a negative.

[photo of cows in a pen]

"In this cage, we're safe from wolves." - Toxic Positivity

Maybe, just so you don't appear *entirely* dour, would you like to also mention one *positive* thing about cities / urban life -- ?

[ckaihatsu]

What about the development of *agriculture*, Qatzel -- ? Is *that* 'tool-usage' -- ?

[A] prior change in the way in which people made their livelihood [was] a change that was initially centred on agriculture. The earliest forms of agriculture, using fairly elementary techniques and involving naturally found varieties of plants and animals, could lead over generations to slow increases in agricultural productivity, enabling some peoples to gain a satisfactory livelihood while continuing to enjoy considerable leisure.45 But conditions were by no means always as idyllic as is suggested by some romanticised ‘noble savage’ accounts of indigenous peoples. There were many cases in which the growth in food output did little more than keep abreast with the rise in population. People were exposed to sudden famines by natural events beyond their control, ‘droughts or floods, tempests or frosts, blights or hailstorms’.46 The history of the pre-Hispanic peoples of Meso-America, for example, is one of years in which they found it easy to feed themselves interspersed with unexpected and devastating famines.47

Harman, _People's History of the World_, pp. 17-18