A good example of why I am scared of government - Politics Forum.org | PoFo

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Classical liberalism. The individual before the state, non-interventionist, free-market based society.
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#14252662
From Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn's book Gulag Archipelago:

At the conclusion of the conference, a tribute to Comrade Stalin was called for. Of course, everyone stood up (just as everyone had leaped to his feet during the conference at every mention of his name). ... For three minutes, four minutes, five minutes, the stormy applause, rising to an ovation, continued. But palms were getting sore and raised arms were already aching. And the older people were panting from exhaustion. It was becoming insufferably silly even to those who really adored Stalin.
However, who would dare to be the first to stop? … After all, NKVD men were standing in the hall applauding and watching to see who would quit first! And in the obscure, small hall, unknown to the leader, the applause went on – six, seven, eight minutes! They were done for! Their goose was cooked! They couldn’t stop now till they collapsed with heart attacks! At the rear of the hall, which was crowded, they could of course cheat a bit, clap less frequently, less vigorously, not so eagerly – but up there with the presidium where everyone could see them?
The director of the local paper factory, an independent and strong-minded man, stood with the presidium. Aware of all the falsity and all the impossibility of the situation, he still kept on applauding! Nine minutes! Ten! In anguish he watched the secretary of the District Party Committee, but the latter dared not stop. Insanity! To the last man! With make-believe enthusiasm on their faces, looking at each other with faint hope, the district leaders were just going to go on and on applauding till they fell where they stood, till they were carried out of the hall on stretchers! And even then those who were left would not falter…
Then, after eleven minutes, the director of the paper factory assumed a businesslike expression and sat down in his seat. And, oh, a miracle took place! Where had the universal, uninhibited, indescribable enthusiasm gone? To a man, everyone else stopped dead and sat down. They had been saved!
The squirrel had been smart enough to jump off his revolving wheel. That, however, was how they discovered who the independent people were. And that was how they went about eliminating them. That same night the factory director was arrested. They easily pasted ten years on him on the pretext of something quite different. But after he had signed Form 206, the final document of the interrogation, his interrogator reminded him:
“Don’t ever be the first to stop applauding.”

This is what happens when you dabble too much with that tool of satan called government.....
#14252673
Sigh... what's the point of this thread? Do you want people to start copy-pasting parts from Dickens novels to show how horrible a world run by rich people with no government would be? Maybe a section from Lord of the Flies too to describe what an anarchistic society with modern levels of population density would be like?
#14252674
Lol Lord of the flies is about human nature not about libertarians, several boys stuck on an inhabitat iceland dont make a society. I am not defending libertarianism, i am just pointing out your bad choice of example.
#14252676
JohnRawls wrote:Lol Lord of the flies is about human nature not about libertarians, several boys stuck on an inhabitat iceland dont make a society. I am not defending libertarianism, i am just pointing out your bad choice of example.


I said anarchism, not libertarianism. In libertarianism the ultra-rich are a de facto government. Anarchism, without small tribes on sparsely populated lands, is pretty much Lord of the Flies.
#14252693
I have difficulty believing that the story being told there even happened. It is too insane to be believable, even for the USSR. Is there a date on that conference so that we can check and see if any of that happened?

Solzhenitsyn's Gulag Archipelago (which I've read twice, btw) is full of such anecdotes - in fact, it consists of little more than anecdotes and 'eyewitness' accounts, none of which can be verified. And its prose style is full of exclamation marks! And even more exclamation marks!! And sensationalist writing!! Just to hammer his points home!!! I think you get the idea....
#14252731
To the people who think Solzhenitsyn is lying:

[youtube]wXGh_sbPUk0[/youtube]

Yeah I wonder why they had a bell to get people to stop clapping, it couldnt be because otherwise the clapping would have continued for 30+ minutes since people were afraid of good old uncle Stalin killing them? No that cant be it. The Soviet commissars were just so fond of Stalin that a bell was needed to quiet down these rebels.

Also for the people saying that this behavior is unrealistic, we have modern day examples of people engaging in this type of mass behavior driven by fear of death, just look at the crowd reactions of when the Kim Jong Il died, they didnt behave in that weird and extreme manner because they loved this guy, they did it because they knew the consequence of not showing enthusiasm:

[youtube]tZsVP2WoE9E[/youtube]
#14252737
Kman wrote:Yeah I wonder why they had a bell to get people to stop clapping, it couldnt be because otherwise the clapping would have continued for 30+ minutes since people were afraid of good old uncle Stalin killing them?

Hmm. Actually, that is pretty strange, yes. Unless Russians have excessive clapping as part of their culture, it seems very weird, since clearly it is not ironic clapping, and the bell clearly sounds to make them stop. Also, Stalin doesn't even seem to be embarrassed about it.
#14253035
Hmm. Actually, that is pretty strange, yes. Unless Russians have excessive clapping as part of their culture, it seems very weird, since clearly it is not ironic clapping, and the bell clearly sounds to make them stop. Also, Stalin doesn't even seem to be embarrassed about it.

The point of the bell was to avoid the sort of nonsense the OP described. Petty bureaucrats were too eager to show their dog-like devotion to Comrade Stalin, and would insist on maintaining their standing ovation as long as possible. Do you think Stalin wanted to have to stand there listening to people clapping at him for twenty minutes at a time?
#14253052
Potemkin wrote:The point of the bell was to avoid the sort of nonsense the OP described. Petty bureaucrats were too eager to show their dog-like devotion to Comrade Stalin, and would insist on maintaining their standing ovation as long as possible. Do you think Stalin wanted to have to stand there listening to people clapping at him for twenty minutes at a time?


Stalin was the pinnacle of paranoia and cruelty and he had eyes everywhere, people always willing to outdo their colleagues in "elimination of enemies of the state" statistics, you do not take chances when a guy like that runs a supwerpower and you live in that superpower. I think it's likely those petty bureaucrats really were scared to death of Stalin (I would be) and they probably wouldn't clap until they got a heart-attack but they would be scared shitless when they stopped clapping.
#14253069
Stalin was the pinnacle of paranoia and cruelty and he had eyes everywhere, people always willing to outdo their colleagues in "elimination of enemies of the state" statistics, you do not take chances when a guy like that runs a supwerpower and you live in that superpower. I think it's likely those petty bureaucrats really were scared to death of Stalin (I would be) and they probably wouldn't clap until they got a heart-attack but they would be scared shitless when they stopped clapping.

Imaginative story, bro. Have you ever thought of becoming a writer?
#14253112
Potemkin wrote:Imaginative story, bro. Have you ever thought of becoming a writer?


Nothing imaginative about it. I've known my fair share of mentally ill people and understand that Stalin was one of them. When it comes to historical figures you can't just say "that story is so out there, no one I've ever met is like that", no, when you've met enough mentally ill people you will find that some people actually are like that and there's no reason they can't become head of a government, in fact they have an above average talent for politics. Stalin deported entire populations, entire ethnicities, entire military brigades, his own officers, he was like those crazy De Niro characters times a hundred.
#14253149
Stalin deported entire populations, entire ethnicities, entire military brigades, his own officers, he was like those crazy De Niro characters times a hundred.

You make Stalin sound pretty awesome, actually.
#14253411
Potemkin wrote:Solzhenitsyn's Gulag Archipelago (which I've read twice, btw) is full of such anecdotes - in fact, it consists of little more than anecdotes and 'eyewitness' accounts, none of which can be verified. And its prose style is full of exclamation marks! And even more exclamation marks!! And sensationalist writing!! Just to hammer his points home!!! I think you get the idea....


My favorite anecdote is the starving labor brigade who unearths (un-ices?) a frozen wooly mammoth, and proceeds to barbecue and devour it before scientists can intervene.
#14253459
quetzalcoatl wrote:My favorite anecdote is the starving labor brigade who unearths (un-ices?) a frozen wooly mammoth, and proceeds to barbecue and devour it before scientists can intervene.


Yeah totally unbelievable that people sent to the gulag by good old uncle Stalin would have been having issues feeding themselves, after all we all know that nobody starved to death while he was supreme dictator!!
#14255958
Poelmo wrote:In libertarianism the ultra-rich are a de facto government.

False. In fact, ultra-rich are much more powerful when there is a government for them to corrupt and buy.

The weaker government is, the less power the ultra-rich have.

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