Victimless Crimes - Page 6 - Politics Forum.org | PoFo

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Classical liberalism. The individual before the state, non-interventionist, free-market based society.
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#14652251
There are plenty of negative effects drugs have apart from health, especially those that alter a person's personality. A person's drug dependency majorly affects their family and close friends. I've known a family where the mother was an alcoholic. It was all very low key and as an acquaintance you wouldn't have guessed that the family had a problem. However, it profoundly affected them and the children in particular. The mother was a completely different person when drunk and the personality change was not for the better (to put it mildly). Dependency also obviously tends to change a person's priorities. The need for a drug may become so important that it overrides the needs of dependants.
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By Zamuel
#14652252
Zamuel wrote:Water ... H(2)0 ... and before you start ranting about "it's not a drug" name a substance that has a more profound effect on the Human Body.

Drlee wrote:[:lol: It was time we had some humor in this thread. Where is rancid when you need him?



Levity aside ... Water is a basic vital need we all share. Some people have basic vital needs that others do not share. Society is presently interested in providing for these needs rather than condemning them as we have in the past. This -IS- the path of progress. Some people favor progress, some do not ... both sides try to justify and rationalize their agenda's, doing so is just as pointless for either side.

The basic proposition is : shall we share? and provide WHAT is needed for those who NEED it ... Or shall we hoard whatever assets we can amass and consider only our own welfare ?

In the past Men killed other Men for drinking from THEIR well ... Remember ?

Zam
By Pants-of-dog
#14652270
Kaiserschmarrn wrote:There are plenty of negative effects drugs have apart from health, especially those that alter a person's personality. A person's drug dependency majorly affects their family and close friends. I've known a family where the mother was an alcoholic. It was all very low key and as an acquaintance you wouldn't have guessed that the family had a problem. However, it profoundly affected them and the children in particular. The mother was a completely different person when drunk and the personality change was not for the better (to put it mildly). Dependency also obviously tends to change a person's priorities. The need for a drug may become so important that it overrides the needs of dependants.


The impact on family is a real one in cases such as you describe. And these people would benefit from treatment as would their families.

But I have also met heroin addicts who take good care of their kids. People like that should be able to benefit from harm reduction programs without having to also do some sort of treament plan that might entail being separated from their kids.
#14655875
Drlee wrote:Nonsense. Name an addictive drug that does not ruin lives.

Caffeine.
Read my posts. I have answered this question several times.

No, you have dodged it several times.
Besides. I am not going to explain how the world is round. If you wish to challenge a couple of centuries of research please feel free to do so.

So, still no actual facts or logic to support your claims. Check.
Drug addiction, like obesity, has health issues that are caused by the behaviour of the person.

Not necessarily. There are time when neither are initially driven by behavior.

Obesity is always driven by behavior: consuming more calories than you use or excrete.
But even if I grant this point, then you must also grant that so are strokes, cancer, COPD, AIDS, and diabetes. In such company we single out drug addiction but almost universally refer to those with the others as victims.

But without a biological basis for such a distinction.
Well, I think that rather than focusing on drug addiction, we can focus on the negative impacts of drug addiction,

You are seeking a distinction without a difference.

There is a huge difference: regarding addiction as the problem prevents you from ever knowing the fact that prohibition is the problem.
as well as the negative factors that lead to drug addiction.

So you want to ignore treatment? Why?

He didn't say that.
I am all for dealing with the factors leading to drug addiction, obesity, cancer, COPD diabetes, etc. They are legion. But once someone is addicted I utterly reject any solution that does not incorporate treatment as an easily accessible option. Free treatment. Ready when the addict is.

...in jail.
There is no doubt that needle exchanges, methadone clinics and the like save lives.

Oh? How is that even possible if ADDICTION is the problem, hmmmmm?
We insist on seeing addiction as naughty but a colon cancer patient who has never had a colonoscopy or a breast cancer patient who has eaten a high saturated fat diet as victims.

Huh? Aren't you the one who thinks addiction is the problem?
#14656181
Pants-of-dog wrote:The impact on family is a real one in cases such as you describe. And these people would benefit from treatment as would their families.

I'm really not sure if anybody in that family would have benefited from treatment. I'm quite certain at least that none of them wanted treatment, and I can't blame them seeing how low success rates probably are.

Pants-of-dog wrote:But I have also met heroin addicts who take good care of their kids. People like that should be able to benefit from harm reduction programs without having to also do some sort of treament plan that might entail being separated from their kids.

Yes, support should be there for those who want it and taking children away should be an absolute last resort.

Whether we can and should call what we currently have on offer "treatment" is another question. Prevention, mainly via social pressure, still seems to be our most effective weapon in keeping addiction low in the general population.
User avatar
By Drlee
#14656248
But I have also met heroin addicts who take good care of their kids. People like that should be able to benefit from harm reduction programs without having to also do some sort of treament plan that might entail being separated from their kids.


Why do you think that a treatment program must necessarily keep an addict from his/her children?
User avatar
By Rancid
#14656250
I have a very close family member that is an addict. Only recently has this person start to get some real help. It puts a terrible strain on families. It has actually deteriorated my mothers health situation to the point where I would not be surprised if I got a phone call tomorrow that she passed.
User avatar
By Drlee
#14656258
It is a horrible problem for families. That is why the whole gamut of treatment ought to be available and free. As many times as it takes. I hope your family member us successful.
By Pants-of-dog
#14656386
Drlee wrote:Why do you think that a treatment program must necessarily keep an addict from his/her children?


I do not believe that this is necessarily the case, however I would not be surprised to find that this is often the case. Also, I think that legalisation or decriminalisation of recreational drugs would lessen the frequency with which children ar separated from their parents as I describe.
User avatar
By Ummon
#14656463
Another argument on the addiction front is that treating it as a medical issue to be treated as a disease is more effective, cheaper, and has less ill effects on society.
#14657000
Rancid wrote:I have a very close family member that is an addict. Only recently has this person start to get some real help. It puts a terrible strain on families. It has actually deteriorated my mothers health situation to the point where I would not be surprised if I got a phone call tomorrow that she passed.

You don't identify the drug, but in many cases a big part of the strain on families is caused by prohibition, not the actual use of the drug (the main exceptions are alcohol and crystal meth, which cause psychotic behavior). The addict needs a great deal of money because the drug is prohibited, and often exploits family members -- lies, steals, etc. -- to get it. The addict is also defined as a criminal, and naturally comes to associate with real criminals, with all the negative baggage that carries.

As I've mentioned before, at the time heroin was prohibited, there were around 250,000 heroin addicts in the USA, and their addiction simply wasn't a significant health or social problem. Prohibition made it a problem.
User avatar
By Drlee
#14657003
Image
User avatar
By Zamuel
#14657036
Drlee wrote:Why do you think that a treatment program must necessarily keep an addict from his/her children?

Pretty Basic stuff ... An old personality pattern is being deconstructed in order to replace it with one that enhances desired behavior. Until that new pattern is in placed and structurally sound, nothing that reinforces the old pattern is allowable ... This is a standard technique for behavior modification treatments, criminal rehabilitation, and military "Basic" training.

Zam
User avatar
By Drlee
#14657045
But that is not what is done. Many treatment programs are outpatient. The combination of inpatient and outpatient treatment is ideal but it is not absolutely necessary in all cases.

The key is that the patient is in a program.

Inpatient detox can be less than a week.
User avatar
By Zamuel
#14657115
Drlee wrote:But that is not what is done. Many treatment programs are outpatient. The combination of inpatient and outpatient treatment is ideal but it is not absolutely necessary in all cases. The key is that the patient is in a program. Inpatient detox can be less than a week.

There are a lot of CHEAP "AID & Assistance programs" operating that treat symptoms and offer sustitutes ... They do not address the patients PROBLEM they just seek short term symptomatic relief and call that success ... The patient relapses fairly quickly and ! "hey give us more $$$ so we can do it again ! A nice government subsidized racket for the local politicians to hide behind.

Zam
User avatar
By Drlee
#14657128
There are a lot of CHEAP "AID & Assistance programs" operating that treat symptoms and offer sustitutes ... They do not address the patients PROBLEM they just seek short term symptomatic relief and call that success ... The patient relapses fairly quickly and ! "hey give us more $$$ so we can do it again ! A nice government subsidized racket for the local politicians to hide behind.

Zam


Source?

I know many people doing quite well in these programs.
User avatar
By Zamuel
#14657129
Zamuel wrote:There are a lot of CHEAP "AID & Assistance programs" operating that treat symptoms and offer substitutes ... They do not address the patients PROBLEM they just seek short term symptomatic relief and call that success ... The patient relapses fairly quickly and ! "hey give us more $$$ so we can do it again ! A nice government subsidized racket for the local politicians to hide behind.
Drlee wrote:I know many people doing quite well in these programs.

People do fairly well in them, WHILE they're active, it's a crutch ... but these are limited length programs based on the hypothesis that a NEW pattern has been imposed over the old one ... Once the support apparatus for the NEW pattern is removed, it falls apart and the old pattern reasserts itself ...

Zam
User avatar
By Drlee
#14657131
I am not sure what you are referring to. It sounds like you are saying that there is no cure for opioid addiction. There certainly is.
User avatar
By Zamuel
#14657165
Drlee wrote:I am not sure what you are referring to. It sounds like you are saying that there is no cure for opioid addiction. There certainly is.

All addictions involve 2 factors ... the addictive activity and the behavior pattern that triggers it. Repressing the activity is possible, but is not a "Cure" for the addiction. Repression requires constant attention or it fails. CUREING an addiction requires the removal and replacement of the "triggering" behavior pattern. That generally involves long term institutional treatment.

Zam
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