Greko Turkish relations - Politics Forum.org | PoFo

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#15104749
The idea behind this subject, is to discover if us the non politician Greeks and turks can find a meeting ground for our common topics such as Cyprus, agean, constantinople and the general relationship between our two states.

Here we will test how much Turkish and Greek commoners in the pofo community can make a discussion about a deal thst would satisfy both of the parties and circumstances that both would accept living under on.


As a half Greek half turk(Greek in spirit and mind though) , I'll start this first by our most controversial subject, Cyprus.

I'd suggest a dual presidential democracy.
A common Cypriot state in which there shall be two presidents elected by turks and Greeks with equal power and cabinet members will be divided among the two ethnicities after negotiations and agreements between the two presidents.

This state will be sovereign with its own foreign and domestic diplomacy, Greece and Turkey are both prohibited pouring troops or any kind of military forces in the island and both have to recognise Cyprus as a sovereign and independent state. Rights for Cypriot natural resources shouldn't belong neither to Greece or Turkey, it all will belong to the Cypriots and it will be their decision what to do with them.
I'm open to every subject and to all your ideas :)
#15104787
The blood feud goes all the way back to the Trojan War, in which the Mycenaeans fought a war with Troy. A new genetic analysis showed that 80% of males who fought the war shared the same ancestry background. Four out of five males belonging to Minoans, Mycenaeans, and southwestern Anatolians belonged to haplogroup J. Haplogroup J's spread westward may have accompanied the cultural influence from Anatolia and the Mycenaeans and the Trojans belonged to the same ancient civilization.



The Mycenaeans are thought to be the original Greeks as the events of the Trojan War are found in many works of Greek literature and Greek art. The historical Trojans lived in Asian Minor, which is modern-day Turkey, and the Cypriots do have this ancient Anatolian ancestry derived from the Mycenaeans and the Trojans at 30-40%. This is why it is hard to tell if they are Greeks or Turks.

Image

Abstract
The origins of the Bronze Age Minoan and Mycenaean cultures have puzzled archaeologists for more than a century. We have assembled genome-wide data from 19 ancient individuals, including Minoans from Crete, Mycenaeans from mainland Greece, and their eastern neighbours from southwestern Anatolia. Here we show that Minoans and Mycenaeans were genetically similar, having at least three-quarters of their ancestry from the first Neolithic farmers of western Anatolia and the Aegean, and most of the remainder from ancient populations related to those of the Caucasus and Iran. However, the Mycenaeans differed from Minoans in deriving additional ancestry from an ultimate source related to the hunter-gatherers of eastern Europe and Siberia, introduced via a proximal source related to the inhabitants of either the Eurasian steppe or Armenia. Modern Greeks resemble the Mycenaeans, but with some additional dilution of the Early Neolithic ancestry. Our results support the idea of continuity but not isolation in the history of populations of the Aegean, before and after the time of its earliest civilizations.
https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/28783727/
#15104791
Hellas me ponas wrote:I'll start this first by our most controversial subject, Cyprus.

I'd suggest a dual presidential democracy.
A common Cypriot state in which there shall be two presidents elected by turks and Greeks with equal power and cabinet members will be divided among the two ethnicities after negotiations and agreements between the two presidents.

This state will be sovereign with its own foreign and domestic diplomacy, Greece and Turkey are both prohibited pouring troops or any kind of military forces in the island and both have to recognise Cyprus as a sovereign and independent state. Rights for Cypriot natural resources shouldn't belong neither to Greece or Turkey, it all will belong to the Cypriots and it will be their decision what to do with them.
I'm open to every subject and to all your ideas :)


Why do you think that an arrangement such as this would be easier than two separate countries?
#15105293
Because if there is two poles in the island , naturally the Greek Pole will lean to Greece for support against the other, and the Turkish will lean to Turkey for support against the other too.
Thus, both motherland will have justifications and legal abilities to continue the feud.

Whilst one United independent greko Turkish Cyprus wouldnt leane neither to Greece or Turkey, because they want neither, their interests as a United island are against seeking to be someone's protectorate.

That way there is no justification for Greece and Turkey to continue fighting for the control of the island, since very simply the island is independent and takes its own decisions.
#15105300
Hellas me ponas wrote:Because if there is two poles in the island , naturally the Greek Pole will lean to Greece for support against the other, and the Turkish will lean to Turkey for support against the other too.
Thus, both motherland will have justifications and legal abilities to continue the feud.

Whilst one United independent greko Turkish Cyprus wouldnt leane neither to Greece or Turkey, because they want neither, their interests as a United island are against seeking to be someone's protectorate.

That way there is no justification for Greece and Turkey to continue fighting for the control of the island, since very simply the island is independent and takes its own decisions.


In that case, how would the government work? Would there be a singular shared parliament, like in Belgium, but with separate figureheads, like in Bosnia and Herzegovina? Would there be two separate systems entirely, such as existed in the New Hebrides Condominium? If the answer is the former, there would be constant ethnic tension and very little would get done. If it's the latter, you would need to find a neutral third party to mediate disputes. In the aforementioned condominium, for instance, they used Dutch judges in the court system as a go between for British and French judges.
#15105305
Former.

But a common Greek Turkish institution would be established with the help and supervision of Britain to oversee the processes and make sure no injustices happen.
Of course during the first couple decades of its creation both sides will be suspicious and tension will be high, but through a fair and just supervision and consensus from both sides eventually the island will unite into a new greko Turkish entity.
The only problem for this is that this could only happen if both parties truly want the problem to be solved, but reality is turks don't want to compromise and the brits always are against the unification of the island and keep fuelling that feud with divide et impera tactics.
If turkey and Greece decide in the future to solve this peacefully once and for all that's how it should happen in order for fair and justice sake.
#15105306
Cyprus can be the gateway for Greek and Turkish strengthening their relations. But politicians from both sides are getting baited from the divide and conquer strategy of foreign powers.
If a wise and competent leader emerges in both sides then Greece and Turkey could be best allies. But unfortunately that will never happen because we're both too incompetent.
#15105308
Hellas me ponas wrote:Former.

But a common Greek Turkish institution would be established with the help and supervision of Britain to oversee the processes and make sure no injustices happen.
Of course during the first couple decades of its creation both sides will be suspicious and tension will be high, but through a fair and just supervision and consensus from both sides eventually the island will unite into a new greko Turkish entity.
The only problem for this is that this could only happen if both parties truly want the problem to be solved, but reality is turks don't want to compromise and the brits always are against the unification of the island and keep fuelling that feud with divide et impera tactics.
If turkey and Greece decide in the future to solve this peacefully once and for all that's how it should happen in order for fair and justice sake.


Maybe you're right, but I view that as being a bit idealistic to be honest. Belgium has existed for 200 years, and still the Flemings and Walloons are at each other's throats, despite both groups being Catholic and Northern European. Greeks and Turks have completely different religions and cultures, and have a history of aggression. Surely, if Belgium cannot function effectively, a Greco-Turkish Cyprus couldn't either.
#15105860
You can't relate two situations, because they are different.

Belgium is an artificial ethnicity, Turkish and Greek aren't.

And both Greek and Turkish Cypriot although both very connected to their respective motherlands, both have created a sense of local "cypriotism".

You shouldn't think of this situation like the flemish in Belgium. Because if the flemish joing Netherlands that's a blow to Belgian existence itself. Whilst an independent Cyprus is far from a direct threat to Greece and Turkey, moreover it would work as a third party or even a medietor between the two sides.

Indeed this is idealist, because the only way this would e er happen is if competent and proper goverment are in charge of both Greece and Turkey (which will probably never happen at the same time).
#15105861
Greek and Turkish people are closer than their governments are. We trade and have business with each other everyday. And the commoners are kind of sick of this bloody and pointless rivalry.
If only Greece stopped being German puppet and keep getting baited for these divide and conquer tactics the West use to keep this rivalry fueling then progress and stability would emerge in the east Mediterranean

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