Macedonian name dispute - Page 4 - Politics Forum.org | PoFo

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By Doomhammer
#1649004
As far as the latest developments are concerned, you can check the news yourself. Russia received the exact same attitude from Greece as did America, openly, without hesitation, and promoted this line of policy as she still does.

Excuse me but you said:

Greece's diplomatic power is that she has no clear friends and in all disputes takes the rule of the Law, without distinction

To which I made a general statement (which I pointed out was a general statement - you have a problem with not reading disclaimers). I am not criticizing Greece but state behavior in general.

The crap you read,

I may read crap but you have amply demonstrated with your vulgarities and lack of respect towards scholarly work that you write crap.

goes to show your whole attitude, the fact that you equate America with NATO,

What is NATO without America?

and fail to understand that Greece reliably stuck to NATOIC procedure when America did not.

Yes, well thank you. You've been most enlightening.

This is supposed to be, we obey International Procedure, and that alone.

But of course.

The Issue here is that your allegation regarding Greco-Russian relations is unfounded.

No. Bolshevik rule is an anomaly, the exception that doesn't disprove the rule. Neither does being "objective" in foreign policy necessarily mean the countries are hostile.
User avatar
By noemon
#1649016
Doom, you have a tendency of writing much, yet say nothing.

I am not criticizing Greece but state behavior in general.


You claim that Greece might as well be Russia's umbrella and you make an arguemnt of orthodx brothers which Demonic trashed with his Pakistan mention regarding Turkey, you also mention that Greece should had it coming since they are unreliable members of NATO. I show to you, that Greece as her state behavior is concerned, remains steady in regards to both America and Russia and irrelevant to friendships, but only relevant to her reliability towards the organizations she belongs to and their consensus. I give you ample proof that this is the case.

I may read crap but you have amply demonstrated with your vulgarities and lack of respect towards scholarly work that you write crap.


Apparently there is a breakdown in communication: Your author writes: "especially from the US point of view", "[Greece] if it did not actively obstruct it".

Neglecting to mention that the actual bombardment commenced from Greece in the end.

This makes your "unreliable" remarks, silly, just like all your other crap in this thread.

What is NATO without America?


Despite your wet dreams for American supremacy, NATO is not America. And sticking to procedure means staying reliable to the alliance, even if that means going against its alleged patron. Reliability above all.

No. Bolshevik rule is an anomaly, the exception that doesn't disprove the rule. Neither does being "objective" in foreign policy necessarily mean the countries are hostile.


What Bolshevic rule and bullshit, and you speak of fangs?, that was merely a historical fact to lead you to the very recent fact that Russia and America received from Greece the exact same attitude without distinction, that is to highlight reliability on international law.

Get it, or would you like a drawing?
User avatar
By Doomhammer
#1649031
Doom, you have a tendency of writing much, yet say nothing.

Why thank you. I am practicing for my desired career in the civil service. Based on your qualifications in writing, you ought to take a whack at it as well.

You claim that Greece might as well be Russia's umbrella and you make an arguemnt of orthodx brothers which Demonic trashed with his Pakistan mention regarding Turkey

Though I don't think anyone would disagree that both nations have quite good relations and some go as far as to saying they are brother nations. DemonicRage's "argument" is a weak "argument".
you also mention that Greece should had it coming since they are unreliable members of NATO.

Indeed, I have.

I show to you, that Greece as her state behavior is concerned, remains steady in regards to both America and Russia and irrelevant to friendships

Of course it is irrelevant to "friendships". An alliance is not a "friendship". Hardly anything that goes on in international relations has to do with friendship. By friendship, I mean that a state that is a member of an alliance bloc such as NATO should have the decency to act in accordance with the organizations policies so long as these policies do not violently clash with the fundamental principles of the nation.

When I say Greece and Russia has good relations, it is a fact. Greece is not obliged to enable or endorse everything US or Russia does but it does not follow that Greece would be a target for Russia nor would it reduce the likelihood that Greece would join Russia if the conditions were right.

Apparently there is a breakdown in communication: Your author writes: "especially from the US point of view", "[Greece] if it did not actively obstruct it".

Neglecting to mention that the actual bombardment commenced from Greece in the end.

This makes your "unreliable" remarks, silly, just like all your other crap in this thread.

And you fail to appreciate that we are talking about US sentiments towards Greece (which you were whining about), hence my selection of this particular source as it highlights the American perspective.

Am I to understand that your next line of text will either be about Greece being more reliable about X country and then probably that the country perceived as more reliable will automatically be labeled as "ass lickers of America" (a statement you once made in another thread)?

Neglecting to mention that the actual bombardment commenced from Greece in the end.

As well as other places, including Hungry and a host of countries. I remember jets flying over my school back when I lived in Austria in that period.
Despite your wet dreams for American supremacy, NATO is not America.

Yes, I get an orgasm every time I turn on the news. :roll: I think we'd avoid this tangent seeing as how your previous rants against America were pitiful.

And sticking to procedure means staying reliable to the alliance, even if that means going against its alleged patron. Reliability above all.

Whatever you say.

What Bolshevic rule and bullshit, and you speak of fangs?,
that was merely a historical fact

A fact which does not cement your position. Greeks were killed by Bolsheviks therefore Greece and Russia have never been close in the past and Greece is always objective. Post hoc ergo propter hoc. I said that the fact that Bolsheviks inflicted such miseries on the Greeks is not a suitable example because the same administration more or less took the same measures against its own people and other ethnicities, thus you should understand that it was a particular accident and the Red Terror cannot dictate the whole historical interactions between the two states.

to lead you to the very recent fact that Russia and America received from Greece the exact same attitude

Again, fine. But it does not mean that in the hypothetical 100 years later scenario DemonicRage came up with that Greece would not seek shelter with the Russians. There are still historical and cultural ties with the Russians which you cannot sever if you wanted to.
Get it, or would you like a drawing?

Crystal clear, dear Noemon.
User avatar
By noemon
#1649039
You still continue on ranting yet divulging no information. Do not try to outcompete me in English, you simply cant. I write fast and dont care that much to check it, so sometimes some letters are missing, because this is neither an important interlocutor, nor an important subject.

Though I don't think anyone would disagree that both nations have quite good relations and some go as far as to saying they are brother nations. DemonicRage's "argument" is a weak "argument".


As weak as yours, and mine is not a weak argument.

Of course it is irrelevant to "friendships". An alliance is not a "friendship". Hardly anything that goes on in international relations has to do with friendship. By friendship, I mean that a state that is a member of an alliance bloc such as NATO should have the decency to act in accordance with the organizations policies so long as these policies do not violently clash with the fundamental principles of the nation.

When I say Greece and Russia has good relations, it is a fact. Greece is not obliged to enable or endorse everything US or Russia does but it does not follow that Greece would be a target for Russia nor would it reduce the likelihood that Greece would join Russia if the conditions were right.


Listen, am not impressed by your late attitude of simply stating the obvious, probably so that you get no response, nor am i impressed by elementary friendship analysis that has nothing to do with the bone of contention.

And you fail to appreciate that we are talking about US sentiments towards Greece (which you were whining about), hence my selection of this particular source as it highlights the American perspective.

Am I to understand that your next line of text will either be about Greece being more reliable about X country and then probably that the country perceived as more reliable will automatically be labeled as "ass lickers of America" (a statement you once made in another thread)?


Yet you neglect the fact, that Greece gave in America's policy regarding Kossovo in practice, as far as NATO obliged her too.

And you also seem to forget that this was your exact sentence:

Doomhammer wrote:Noemon, I find your rants about America and NATO quite odd. Greece was uncooperative in the NATO bombing campaign of Serbia and basically in the policy regarding Kosovo.


And i was not whining about US sentiments, you are probably having english reading problems. I was using the US change of policy in FYROM to explain the change of attitude among liberal internationalists such as DT, and as a factor for Greece's louder voice regarding this issue. You think of whine and pity, much too often, yet neglect the points as they are.

A fact which does not cement your position. Greeks were killed by Bolsheviks therefore Greece and Russia have never been close in the past and Greece is always objective. Post hoc ergo propter hoc. I said that the fact that Bolsheviks inflicted such miseries on the Greeks is not a suitable example because the same administration more or less took the same measures against its own people and other ethnicities, thus you should understand that it was a particular accident and the Red Terror cannot dictate the whole historical interactions between the two states.


Boy, wtf do you rant about?

My example regarding Greco-Russia relations was the recent attitude Greece gave to Russia, the mention of Bolshevism was to illustrate that the historical ties of Greece that you attributed through Orthodoxy were effectively cut down during the communist reign as manifested with their supporting Kemal, and as manifested today, with Greece disapproving of their actions against Georgia.

Don't let your arguments be so little, you are just keeping me awake for nothing.

There are still historical and cultural ties with the Russians which you cannot sever if you wanted to.


There are ties between the people, not between their governments, just like you have with Sudan, Pakistan and so.
The ties between their governments which were huge, the Romanovs being part Greeks, and the higher offices being occupied by Greeks just like the Russian foreign minister during the reign of Alexander the Great of Russia are effectively over by Bolshevism. The historical ties remaining are as much as yours with Sudan, on a governmental level.
User avatar
By Kiroff
#1649236
So this is what Shade2 topics look like to the outsider... Except with way fewer maps of Poland that is. :hmm:
By Anor
#1649269
i have managed to read all the messages put here...

my oppinion is that all i see is a set of arguments placed by noemon here, for some people who decide to foucus in a slective manner on fragments and not to the whole thought that lead noemon when writting these.

First of all...

When you are trying to speak about international affairs and therefor , about countries who some of you (not all) are not aware of their history and political status, it is better to get first all facts and then express oppinion. Especially when this contains deminishing remarks about people and nations.

It is like stating that all X people from X nation are ethnisists/dump/whiners and so on, based on how vast or strong (in diplomatic/political/military) this country is. It is neive, in less words that i would probably use if that was a conversation face-to-face.

Then i read remarks with absolutely no logic to back them up, stating that maybe Greeks would be better under Russian Umbrella , or should "blindly" obay US cause Greece is in NATO!!! Can you even read in this simple statement how stupid and in a way fascist this sounds like?

Stating that a country has no power over its diplomacy or will and should always follow the strongest one?

If that was the world case, then Nazis today would have ruled the world. Since in mid 20th century they were the stronger ones on all levels and all countries should go along!!

Next in line was the "religion alliance"... something used mostly by terrorist groups in order to keep together ignorant people , with a non-spherical education - fanatics.

A state with people who are politically trained in diplomacy and international affairs, should form an alliance based on a religious dogma???

I can not even believe i see these writings here, where people are aware what politics and diplomacy means!!! Using religion is a weapon used in the Dark Ages (Crusades) and for Islamic Fanatics who have their own goals to achieve! Not the way of civilized countries of modern age!

To continue about FYROM dispute, most of you fail to see what i said so far. Both World Wars started from Balkans. When countries changed borders or turned for aid to someone who had his own agenda to apply in Europe.

Greece and FYROM are energy nodes today...(pls stop watching CNN only.. take a glance on other channels on Sat TV to learn more) As energy nodes , are considered of high value and they are treated accordingly.

Last Summer for instance there was an official protest of the US embassy cause , Greece signed a contract for the new Russian Pipeline (Gas) as a way to force priority for building US interest pipeline first.

Weapons market is also mainly focused in Balkans. You wont see Germany or UK/France to become weapon clients of US/Russia. Russian Missilles SS300 for instance ,caused a major diplomatic incident between Greece-USA.

Balkans area is a hot potato for any president of a country great in power. Klinton, Bush jr. and now Obama showed that with statements broadcasted on some world TV channels.

Also remember that some countries in Balkans have their own nuclear agenda where there is nothing "non-significant" in this.

To conclude my little message, i will only say that in order to talk about something it is better to say something based on sources and logical arguments of your own, than trying to bash the opposite's side ones. Which is not happening here. Cause i still fail to see some logical arguments set here except noemon's and only a few of Doomhammer.

I think that when you take part in PoFo (this is my oppinion of course) shows that you are capable of setting a series of logical arguments based uppon solid historical documents and not just bashing efforts in fragments of the arguments or the opposite person itself , which is a usual tactic you can find all over the internet.

thank you for reading my mind here.

Anor.
By DemonicRage
#1649317
Fast forward a couple of years...

I quote William Hale's book on Turkish Foreign Policy:
(p.264-265)
...The fact that Greece dragged its heels over the NATO action in Kosovo, if it did not actively obstruct it, also gave Turkey the opportunity to show that it was a much more reliable member of the alliance, especially from the US point of view.



So Turkey is a reliable friend to America but didnt let it use its bases and airspace against Iraq?

Not that reliable.....it seems... :roll:
User avatar
By Doomhammer
#1649318
Do not try to outcompete me in English, you simply cant. I write fast and dont care that much to check it, so sometimes some letters are missing, because this is neither an important interlocutor, nor an important subject.

I have no idea why you said that but thanks for sharing.

As weak as yours, and mine is not a weak argument.

Based on your statement, your arguments are as weak as mine but your arguments are in fact not weak and therefore mince cannot be weak. Thank you for your compliment.
Listen, am not impressed by your late attitude of simply stating the obvious,

I am not impressed with you, period.
Yet you neglect the fact, that Greece gave in America's policy regarding Kossovo in practice, as far as NATO obliged her too.

And you also seem to forget that this was your exact sentence:

Uncooperative in this sense does not necessarily mean that Greece did not eventually yield to NATO but was disagreeable about it. i.e. Greek attitude was uncooperative regardless of their eventual cooperation.
And i was not whining about US sentiments, you are probably having english reading problems.

Well perhaps if you were to spend a bit more effort to articulate your thoughts in your perfect English (which is clearly better than mine, as you have come to believe), then perhaps those reading this thread would find it easier to understand your assertions.
Boy, wtf do you rant about?

I am not ranting about anything, you are. Are you confused or something?

historical ties of Greece that you attributed through Orthodoxy were effectively cut down during the communist reign as manifested with their supporting Kemal, and as manifested today, with Greece disapproving of their actions against Georgia.

Soviet endorsement of the Nationalists were rather a fluke as well. It briefly lasted until the late thirties and then demands were placed on Eastern Turkey and the Straits (they also wanted bases in Greece, you could have mentioned that as an example of Greek-Russian enmity).

And while Greece may be objective in her approach to every crisis, it again does not mean that her relations are merely neutral towards a country. Your Ministry of Foreign Affairs website highlights the historical and cultural ties between Greece and makes a statement that both countries have traditionally good relations. Though perhaps this is just for show, a sort of rhetorical statement to make things appear nice. Check the website if you want. I can't comment on the Greek language portion of the page though, I read the English. Frankly, Greek is all Greek to me.

Don't let your arguments be so little, you are just keeping me awake for nothing.

As if I am responsible for your fixations. Go sleep. What do I care?

The ties between their governments which were huge, the Romanovs being part Greeks, and the higher offices being occupied by Greeks just like the Russian foreign minister during the reign of Alexander the Great of Russia are effectively over by Bolshevism.

Bolshevism is over.
The historical ties remaining are as much as yours with Sudan, on a governmental level.

General apathy?

If that was the world case, then Nazis today would have ruled the world. Since in mid 20th century they were the stronger ones on all levels and all countries should go along!!

They were ahead but the Germans were not overwhelmingly superior to other states (had the French had more morale and more prudence in protecting her Benelux borders, WWII would have been another WWI), whereas US economy and military spending is more than that of the entire world combined. Moreover, realist theory would predict that powers of relatively equal strength would necessarily fight in the case of aggressive behavior of one. Moreover, if the aggressor is perceived to be very strong, it would encourage bandwagoning in some countries (i.e. Italy, Hungary, Romania, etc.) and chain-ganging/balancing behavior in stronger ones (i.e. Britain and the Commonwealth, France, Yugoslavia etc.). In a unipolar world, the hegemon sets up its own international system and its own rules of the game. Few dare challenge the hegemon militarily as the hegemon is overwhelmingly superior on all levels... the reason by unipolarity is more peace prone and more potentially long lasting has to do with so much inequality in capabilities.

In any case, I am afraid this particular assertion of yours is incorrect.

Next in line was the "religion alliance"


A state with people who are politically trained in diplomacy and international affairs, should form an alliance based on a religious dogma???

Well, an alliance would not be based on religion but strong cultural ties between nations would encourage friendly and cooperative relations and in the kind of scenario DemonicRage suggested, it is just as likely for Greece to join the Russian sphere as the "FYROMians" (provided that NATO and EU would indeed collapse).

Using religion is a weapon used in the Dark Ages (Crusades) and for Islamic Fanatics who have their own goals to achieve!

If you are referring to state behavior, you are partially correct. Using religion as a weapon is still common practice within societies.

Not the way of civilized countries of modern age!

Rhetorical statement. Even in "civilized" societies one can observe acts of barbarism or ignorance.

Both World Wars started from Balkans.

How did World War II start in the Balkans? Neither Germany nor Poland are in the Balkans. Versailles was signed in... Versailles, the Great Depression and the debt cycles and the national humiliation of Germany that contributed to the Nazis rise to power had nothing to do with the Balkans. The only reason why the Balkans ever became involved was because the Italians wanted to play the role of Roman imperialists and invaded Albania and then Greece. The others (excluding Yugoslavia) allied with the Axis out of fear and desire for territorial expansion (How very typical of them. The Bulgarians got Western Thrace, Hungary received a decent bit of Slovakia and Romania etc.) .

Balkans area is a hot potato for any president of a country great in power.

The importance of the Balkans is somewhat exaggerated in your statement. If you were to expand your scope, there are more troubled regions in the world than the Balkans. The only reason why the Balkans are treated with such sensitivity is because it is basically the backyard of Europe ("Europe" being the Western European nations - the borders of Europe end with the last Gothic cathedral).

Cause i still fail to see some logical arguments set here except noemon's and only a few of Doomhammer.

I am flattered.
By Anor
#1649336
They were ahead but the Germans were not overwhelmingly superior to other states (had the French had more morale and more prudence in protecting her Benelux borders, WWII would have been another WWI), whereas US economy and military spending is more than that of the entire world combined. Moreover, realist theory would predict that powers of relatively equal strength would necessarily fight in the case of aggressive behavior of one. Moreover, if the aggressor is perceived to be very strong, it would encourage bandwagoning in some countries (i.e. Italy, Hungary, Romania, etc.) and chain-ganging/balancing behavior in stronger ones (i.e. Britain and the Commonwealth, France, Yugoslavia etc.). In a unipolar world, the hegemon sets up its own international system and its own rules of the game. Few dare challenge the hegemon militarily as the hegemon is overwhelmingly superior on all levels... the reason by unipolarity is more peace prone and more potentially long lasting has to do with so much inequality in capabilities.

In any case, I am afraid this particular assertion of yours is incorrect.


You are doing it again.. you focus on the "letters" of my statement and not in the meaning. Germany was the supreme power of that era. Proof of this ,was Stalin's reaction when Hittler was "messing" with the idea of alliance with Russia or not.
Also the fact that Nazis invaded Poland , was a proof that noone could touch them cause of their supreme millitary power. If powers are equal , in theory, there is a "fear balance" as you said, which was also valid in cold war era between USSR-USA. But at that time, Germany just invaded and no one reacted. This is a sole proof of high power. If a country is scared of the consequences an action , such as this one, can cause, would never go on with it.

Religion & Culture


will play a role when alliance is formed .. not before. It is not something countries or even people set as priority when forming an alliance.. it is just a factor. The primary concern is "national interest". Religion is just something to "keep together" and not to "bring together"

As for civilized countries... yes... not justified actions can take place ,but as a side-action/effect and not as the proposed way, unless you wish to cause a war or a genocide-ethnic cleansing on behalf of a personal agenda interest. It is not however the diplomatic way in International Comittees. Remember that we are talking about republics and not regimes here.

WWII ...
from wikipedia:
War breaks out in Europe

In Europe, Germany and Italy were becoming bolder. In March 1938, Germany annexed Austria, again provoking little response from other European powers.[26] Encouraged, Hitler began making claims on the Sudetenland; France and Britain conceded these for a promise of no further territorial demands.[27] Germany soon reneged. In March 1939 Germany and Hungary fully occupied Czechoslovakia..

Alarmed, and with Hitler making further demands on Danzig, France and Britain guaranteed their support for Polish independence; when Italy conquered Albania in April, the same guarantee was extended to Romania and Greece.[28] The Soviet Union also attempted to ally with France and Britain, but was rebuffed due to western suspicions about Soviet motives and capability.[29] Shortly after the Franco-British pledges to Poland, Germany and Italy formalized their own alliance with the Pact of Steel.


So until the invasion to former Czechoslovakia, there was not a sign of an outbursting WWII. It all started then along with Italy invading Albania and then trying to do the same to Greece.

One more issue here is that Balkans as the crossroad to M.East (where Hittler wanted to go) had to go down under Axis occupation before the allies can do anything about it.

Also, i never said this is the most important area , i said it is AN important area in Europe , where you too accept that since it is backyard of Europe is a place , where whoever is in "control" has a significant advantage in Europe's doings.

Your Ministry of Foreign Affairs website highlights the historical and cultural ties between Greece and makes a statement that both countries have traditionally good relations


Simple Diplomacy my friend as you suspected. You can see same kind of statements on media over the world almost on about everything... heck... even that USA and Russia are still in a "good diplomacy level" , even if now they face enough problems.

As for the Greek languange.. one suggestion if you do not mind. Using the Greek alphabet will be a major plus , to whoever wants to really get into philosophy/politics/diplomacy as it is similar to the ancient one and in this way , he who can read/use it (as Latin) will be able to have access to original sources and not to translations where some things are not transfered right. But i think you already know this. However i am impressed that you got into trouble for visiting the ministry's web site.. good for you and shows a will to get a spherical idea of things.

just saw this..

So Turkey is a reliable friend to America but didnt let it use its bases and airspace against Iraq?

Not that reliable.....it seems


Turkey has its own problems and interests. They do not blindly submit to USA's will. They also want a piece of the pie , in Northern Iraq and its oil.

thanks for the ongoing debate, again.

Anor

R edit: Merged multiple posts.
User avatar
By noemon
#1649358
I have no idea why you said that but thanks for sharing.


I just read your quote, again, it was my mistake. It is self-explanatory that i took it otherwise.

Based on your statement, your arguments are as weak as mine but your arguments are in fact not weak and therefore mince cannot be weak. Thank you for your compliment.


Pah, As weak as yours, is in reference to the quote. Not myself, but Demonic Rages argument. You claimed that his argument is weak, it is in fact as weak as yours. My argument on Greco-Russian relations does not follow the same line, either as Demonic's or yours.

I am not impressed with you, period.


Good.

Uncooperative in this sense does not necessarily mean that Greece did not eventually yield to NATO but was disagreeable about it. i.e. Greek attitude was uncooperative regardless of their eventual cooperation.


Blah, blah, blah. Your point is moot anyhow, that because we were uncooperative, still cooperative though, means that we should turn our backs to be butt-fucked currently, and that we should had it coming, is not an argument of any value.

Well perhaps if you were to spend a bit more effort to articulate your thoughts in your perfect English (which is clearly better than mine, as you have come to believe), then perhaps those reading this thread would find it easier to understand your assertions.


More blah blah to excuse your puny comments once again.

I am not ranting about anything, you are. Are you confused or something?


You keep on ranting about Russia, yet still divulging no information, neither arguing the point of contention.

Soviet endorsement of the Nationalists were rather a fluke as well. It briefly lasted until the late thirties and then demands were placed on Eastern Turkey and the Straits (they also wanted bases in Greece, you could have mentioned that as an example of Greek-Russian enmity).

And while Greece may be objective in her approach to every crisis, it again does not mean that her relations are merely neutral towards a country. Your Ministry of Foreign Affairs website highlights the historical and cultural ties between Greece and makes a statement that both countries have traditionally good relations. Though perhaps this is just for show, a sort of rhetorical statement to make things appear nice. Check the website if you want. I can't comment on the Greek language portion of the page though, I read the English. Frankly, Greek is all Greek to me.


The rant continues. Noone claimed that Greece is always neutral and to everybody, but in regards to the main superpowers like America and Russia, Greece maintains an active policy of neutrality. As illustrated by the latest developments.

Bolshevism is over.


Yes, but before it was over, it took down with it, a very historical governmental connection, which is over, too.;)

General apathy?


What's already stated.

Kiroff wrote:So this is what Shade2 topics look like to the outsider... Except with way fewer maps of Poland that is. Hmmm


Cheap.
User avatar
By Doomhammer
#1649730
Germany was the supreme power of that era.

You exaggerate the Germans. They had a technological edge and the will to fight, but in terms of manpower, divisions and even armored divisions , the Germans were outnumbered(the French army was much larger but poor tactics and low morale was the end of them). Technology and tactics brought them only so far. German superiority was not an overwhelming one and the Allies easily caught up to the Germans in two years and surpassed the Germans in the 4th year of the war. The inter-war and WWII era therefore featured a multipolar system as no state was exceedingly stronger than the others.

Proof of this ,was Stalin's reaction when Hittler was "messing" with the idea of alliance with Russia or not.

It is sadly not proof of anything. Germany and USSR had been in cooperation long before the Molotov-J. von Ribbentrop Pact was signed. The German army used USSR lands to conduct wargames and other training operations. Initially, there was arguably little fear. However, the Soviets should have had some doubts because of Nazism and Hitler's magnum opus: Meinkampf, which featured a blatant threat towards the USSR with its Lebensraum rhetoric. Yet, Stalin choose to cooperate with the Germans. Had Stalin pushed away Hitler , WWII could have been avoided. The reason is simply that Germany would not have had a secure Eastern flank and they would have been too scared to invade France and repeat WWI. This was foreseeable, yet Stalin choose to ally with Hitler in Poland and to this day many Russians gripe on and on about how the allies betrayed the Soviets by delaying D-Day.
But at that time, Germany just invaded and no one reacted.

What!? Britain and France were guaranteeing the independence of Poland - they declared war on Germany two days after Poland was invaded.

will play a role when alliance is formed .. not before. It is not something countries or even people set as priority when forming an alliance.. it is just a factor. The primary concern is "national interest". Religion is just something to "keep together" and not to "bring together"

Cultural similarities will likely promote friendly relations but would not necessarily foster alliance nor would alliances have any effect on cultural ties. And since national interest is the primary concern, religion-culture will most likely be ignored if there is a violent divergence of interests.

So until the invasion to former Czechoslovakia

"Annexation without a shot being fired." ;)

there was not a sign of an outbursting WWII.

Actually, there was. The fact that there were so many revisionist powers on the rise and there were such severe economic problems meant that war would be inevitable. The only reason why there were "no signs" in to the westerners was because of liberal defeatism in Britain and France. The people had no will to fight, and appeasement became the basis of conducting relations with Germany. Wishful thinking dictated and blurred the perceptions of leaders (though, to the credit of Neville Chamberlain, Britain began rearming in 1938). People like Ataturk and Churchill predicted that there would be a war. Churchill was, as usual, not given the credit he deserved as his words went unheeded.

It all started then along with Italy invading Albania and then trying to do the same to Greece.

Italy invaded Albania earlier and frankly no one cared about it. By the time Italy invaded Greece, the war had already begun. The Italians had no balls to invade Greece until the Germans began to thrash things around in Europe.

One more issue here is that Balkans as the crossroad to M.East (where Hittler wanted to go) had to go down under Axis occupation before the allies can do anything about it.

Herr Hitler wanted the "Lebensraum" of Eastern Europe and Russia. His main aim was basically to restore a much more draconian version of the Brest-Litovsk Treaty. He wanted the Ukraine (breadbasket of Europe) and the mineral/energy rich Caucuses (especially Baku).

As for the Greek languange.. one suggestion if you do not mind. Using the Greek alphabet will be a major plus , to whoever wants to really get into philosophy/politics/diplomacy as it is similar to the ancient one and in this way , he who can read/use it (as Latin) will be able to have access to original sources and not to translations where some things are not transfered right. But i think you already know this. However i am impressed that you got into trouble for visiting the ministry's web site.. good for you and shows a will to get a spherical idea of things.

I would have wanted to have to study Classics in college but we don't have that in Turkey (heck it has even lost popularity in the UK). It might have been a plus (Greek) but secondary sources are still quite good. I had to write an essay on the Peloponessian War(s) which was quite substantial in its length. I had to read through a pile of secondary sources and I thought they were quite good. I am learning Latin though.

Turkey has its own problems and interests. They do not blindly submit to USA's will. They also want a piece of the pie , in Northern Iraq and its oil.

thanks for the ongoing debate, again.

I didn't approve of that action. Turkey lost much of its bargaining power in Iraq and partially alienated the Americans. Though the invasion wasn't entirely legitimate and I am sure Turkey really did not want what happened in the first Gulf War: a massive influx of refugees. The bases were of no help but most of US's supplies moved through Turkey.
You keep on ranting about Russia

"Ranting" is not the appropriate word here. Ranting is something else - complaining. It would have been more appropriate (grammatically) if you were to say that I "raving mad" about "Russian-Greek relations".

Noone claimed that Greece is always neutral and to everybody, but in regards to the main superpowers like America and Russia, Greece maintains an active policy of neutrality. As illustrated by the latest developments.

You've said that enough times. Yes. I know that. Again, this was about DemonicRage's futuristic scenario about Macedonia receiving Russian patronage and threatening Greece. Therefore, there is always the possibility that (even if you are not convinced that Greece and Russia do not have the relations they once had) in the hypothetical scenario, Greece and Russia could become allies and in which case, cultural and historical ties (even if you believe they are completely severed because of Communism) could easily be revived. Period.

Yes, but before it was over, it took down with it, a very historical governmental connection, which is over, too.

Fine. But see the comment just above which illustrates my point.

So this is what Shade2 topics look like to the outsider... Except with way fewer maps of Poland that is. Hmmm

We need a map of Eastern Europe, stat! Heh. That would also include Poland. :lol:
User avatar
By Kiroff
#1649750
Image

It seems that you are also suffering from an epic burn.
User avatar
By Doomhammer
#1649754
All I see are new areas for the inevitable expansion of the New Ottoman Republic. :D
User avatar
By noemon
#1649966
You've said that enough times. Yes. I know that. Again, this was about DemonicRage's futuristic scenario about Macedonia receiving Russian patronage and threatening Greece. Therefore, there is always the possibility that (even if you are not convinced that Greece and Russia do not have the relations they once had) in the hypothetical scenario, Greece and Russia could become allies and in which case, cultural and historical ties (even if you believe they are completely severed because of Communism) could easily be revived. Period.
...

Fine. But see the comment just above which illustrates my point.


If you consider Demonic Rage's futuristic scenario of FYROM receiving Russian patronage after reading my posts in this whole thread and under the same logic apply it to Greece, then you might as well apply it to any 2 countries in the world, irrespectively.

If you rely on the weakness of his futuristic scenario to make an equally weak and basically useless point that you still rave on about, then there is no point on discussing.

We might as well say, that Cyprus shall become Turkeys patron in a multiple universe of futuristic scenarios.

Kiroff wrote:It seems that you are also suffering from an epic burn.


Whats the epic burn you 're suffering from? You can use Gaviscon. ;)

Image
By Anor
#1650120
I had to write an essay on the Peloponessian War(s) which was quite substantial in its length.


If you still need help on this one, i can give some more resources and ofcourse a very good book to get , which is in Greek but i think there is an English version about it.

As for the rest for WWII and Balkans... give me some time to respond as for now i am on mobile web and not easy to read the sum of your arguments.

Anor
User avatar
By Doomhammer
#1650134
If you rely on the weakness of his futuristic scenario to make an equally weak and basically useless point that you still rave on about, then there is no point on discussing.

I am not relying on a scenario to make a weak argument. I am responding to the scenario. If there were no NATO and EU, why would Macedonia join up with Russia and why wouldn't a pragmatic country like Greece join? Heck, it is very likely that Turkey might accept Russian patronage too. It is unlikely now but it could happen. Would people have thought a hundred years ago that today Germany and France would be the best of buddies? No.

We might as well say, that Cyprus shall become Turkeys patron in a multiple universe of futuristic scenarios.

We can't dismiss this but it is unlikely that Cyprus will acquire the population and capabilities to ever become a significant power.

If you still need help on this one, i can give some more resources and ofcourse a very good book to get , which is in Greek but i think there is an English version about it.

Nah, I'm good. I used books by Ste. Croix, Donald Kagan and many others, including several different versions of Thucydides' book. Got an A. I am thinking of using it as an application essay for graduate studies.
Last edited by Doomhammer on 04 Oct 2008 17:55, edited 1 time in total.
User avatar
By noemon
#1650196
I am not relying on a scenario to make a weak argument. I am responding to the scenario.


You responded to the scenario by relying on a couple of arguments, after these arguments were shown to be incorrect by myself, you relied on the logic of the scenario itself, and its weakness therefore making an equally weak argument.
By Falx
#1650199
The issue could be easily solved so both sides are worse, something that needs to happen given how stupid the argument is in the first place, Bulgaria annexes all of Macedonia, including the parts in Greece and lets it keep the name Macedonia as a province.
User avatar
By noemon
#1650208
How many times was it that Bulgaria actually tried to do exactly that, but failed miserably? And was it Goce Delchev? The Bulgarian hero of Ilinden that taught the Bulgarians that are actually the descendants of Alexander the Great in the first place, because autonomy of Bulgaromacedonia, would be better than annexation as far as Bulgarian is the official language of the new state and Bulgarians the ruling class?

It is in fact Bulgarian nationalism that has created this problem for Greece, and Titoist continuation of these policies that aggravated the situation.

It is also Bulgaria still that does not recognize neither language, nor nation as far as Skopjians are concerned and call them Bulgarians while extending the right of citizenship to them. The previous PM of FYROM actually took it, and is now a proud Bulgarian.
By Falx
#1650218
How many times was it that Bulgaria actually tried to do exactly that, but failed miserably? And was it Goce Delchev? The Bulgarian hero of Ilinden that taught the Bulgarians that are actually the descendants of Alexander the Great in the first place, because autonomy of Bulgaromacedonia, would be better than annexation as far as Bulgarian is the official language of the new state and Bulgarians the ruling class?


I've no idea what you're talking about here, the only thing I agree with is that Bulgaria is a miserable failure of a state, along with every other country that has territory on the Balkans.

It is in fact Bulgarian nationalism that has created this problem for Greece


What problem exactly? A name? :lol:

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