[Prosthetic Conscience]

THANK YOU PROSTHETIC CONSCIOUSNESS! You have truly justified my posting and involvement here, worth 10x these scammers and frauds, who have no interest in discussing things, but only in insults and empty dismissals!

Likely being only 1 of 2 people in the room to have read that chapter, it is entirely possible that that list was indeed taken directly from government records. Perhaps not, it is impossible to tell. Names that seem to be missing could very well be elsewhere on the list, or have an explanation for their absence. regardless, I do not wholly dismiss it, for bias or anything, and accept it for what it is.

I do regret that I have to put up with these intellectual monsters, but thank you again.

I'm with pugsville on this - all I did was point out the origin of the list, which has already been shown by members to be inaccurate. It came from a Frenchman with a clear anti-semitic obsession (and who blamed freemasonry and 'the Illuminati' for the French Revolution), and there's no reason to think it shows any real accuracy in numbers. There were a lot of people in the 1920s saying Jews were stateless conspirators plotting to take over the world, and we know how violently that conspiracy theory ended. Taking your claims from it is not a good sign.

[david.findley]

First of all, everybody throwing around this word 'anti-semitic' is entirely inappropriate. It is clearly stated by Protocols, at least, and many of your so-called 'anti-semitic' antagonists, that culpable parties are an elite or orthodox minority of the Jewish people, to be discerned from the common Jew.

Throwing this word around, 'anti-semitism' 'anti-semitism', it's not real it's 'anti-semitism', is pure and contrived logical fallacy. Look again to what the Protocols say about themselves, the common Jew. Which, by the way, reminds me that my detractors don't read, especially if it is source material for any claim or suggestion I may be presenting.

Also, there is no conclusive evidence to show that Poincare's source for that list is illegitimate。No one has any basis whatsoever to dismiss it, simply by looking at it. If it looks to you to be missing names, that may because it's a sample from a list over 500+ names long, and besides, even if it a name you are expecting is missing from any such list in total, then perhaps their are reasons for it.

regardless, I am not at fault for keeping an open mind here on the issue, whilst monsters attack and debase the issue.

FINALLY, It is not necessary that I am posting this material to make a complete claim. My intention is merely to present an idea, with a hint of what might look like factual evidence, and some apparent witness testimony to the matter. Monsters can attack me for that, too. Simply for presenting an idea for discussion -- I am again not at fault.

if the topic material is inconvenient to your world view, if it jeopardizes everything you think you know, because you certainly have all the answers and the correct world view on everything, then perhaps you know too much, eh?

[david.findley]

ps Free-masonry and 'illuminati' may have played crucial roles in the French revolution.

look at the American revolution. everybody who was important was a free-mason.

if you think that it a crazy idea, this which is probably pretty true, then you need to learn to open your mind a little. Or maybe do some research into something before dismissing it at sight.

[The Immortal Goon]

What about the non-Bolshevik Jewish names tacked onto this list for good measure?

This is obviously a complete waste.

[Tewodros III]

What about the non-Bolshevik Jewish names tacked onto this list for good measure?

This is obviously a complete waste.

Or jews in Hitler upper government and military, again it's about red baiting.

[david.findley]

Goon, often more than one person shares the same family name.
There are thousands of 'Findleys' in the US, which I think I a relatively rare name in itself.

How are you sure that the names are definitively of non-Bolshevik jews?

[The Immortal Goon]

Because history exists.

We don't have to look at every government that ever existed, but at the people active in the Russian government in 1919. And a bunch of Jewish Mensheviks are tacked on for no apparent reason.

And further, the list doesn't designate which 1919 government. If they're speaking of the Bolsheviks, the Central Committee is made up of all of about one Jewish person:

Central Committee (8 Mar 1918 - 17 Mar 1919: between the 7th and 8th congresses): members: Artyom, Buharin, Vladimirsky, Dzer�inskij, Zinov'ev, Krestinskij, Lashevich, Lenin, Sverdlov, Smilga, Sokol'nikov, Stalin, Stasova, Trockij, Shmidt

So far as the actual People's Commissars here we go:

Ministry............................................................Beginning of 1918......................................End of 1918

Ministry of Agriculture and Food...............Andrei Kolegayev (Non-Jewish)....................Semyon Sereda (Non-Jewish)
Council of People's Commissars on War*....Nikolai Krylenko (Non-Jewish)..................Nikolai Ryshkov (Non-Jewish)
Commissariat for Trade and Industry.......Viktor Nogin (Non-Jewish)...........................Unchanged
People's Commissariat for Education........Anatoly Lunacharsky (Non-Jewish)..............Unchanged
People's Commissariat for Food..............Ivan Teodorvich (Non-Jewish) ............(so far as I know unchanged)
People's Commissariat for Foreign Affairs...Leon Trotsky (Jewish).............................Georgy Chicherin (Non-Jewish)
People's Commissariat for Interior Affairs...Alexei Rykov (Non-Jewish)....................Felix Dzerzhinsky (Non-Jewish)
People's Commissariat for Justice.............Georgy Oppokov (Non-Jewish).................Pēteris Stučka (Non-Jewish)
People's Commissariat for Labour..........Alexander Shliapnikov (Non-Jewish)..........Vasili Schmidt (Non-Jewish)
People's Commissariat for Nationalities..Josef Stalin (Not Jewish)..........................Unchanged
Commissariat for Posts and Telegraphs...Nikolai Glebov-Avilov (Not Jewish).....(I think) Vadim Podbelsky (Non-Jewish)
People's Commissariat for Railways........Vacant.............Vacant
People's Commissariat for Finance..........Ivan Skvortsov-Stepanov (Not Jewish).....Vyacheslav Menzhinsky (Not Jewish)
People's Commissariat for Social Welfare......Alexandra Kollontai (Not Jewish).......Position abolished

*This was somewhat ceremonial as during the Civil War it was effectively run by Leon Trotsky (Jewish)

So you have one out of 14 people that are Jewish, which is higher than the average for Russians.

The list you have do not list what kind of positions these people have (above are the names of the actual positions of the people's commisars).

The list you have includes non-Bolsheviks who were effectively gone by 1918. In honesty, I don't know what it's supposed to be a list for except for people hanging around Russia at roughly the same time that may have been Jewish.

It's a fucking joke.

[david.findley]

ok.. I have to admit, it did not even occur to me that references to the Council of People's Commissars and all these other committees would be listed on Wikipedia. I didn't even know the names of these committees, or that there might even be any. The apparent testimony from Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn , too, really seemed to put something in perspective, amongst other claims.

If the Wikipedia accounts are accurate, then I have to admit that this is false information.

[david.findley]

.

also, goon, you said earlier that Trotsky and other weren't in NY receiving funding from international bankers. But having looked through antony suttons book, (in PDF format here,) I have to come to the opposite conclusion. We can also look at Jacob Schiff, American-jewish banker, who had explicit dealings with it.

here is a link to the pdf book:
https://www.voltairenet.org/IMG/pdf/Sut ... tion-5.pdf

can you comment at this?

[The Immortal Goon]

The link doesn't work.

Anyway, the banking conspiracies mostly come down to Jacob Schiff allegedly (though there is no real proof of this beyond the British and American intelligence services of the day sort of lumping all Jews together without any real specifics) giving money to Trotsky.

It is possible as Schiff, like many Jews that had been driven out of Russian by the Czar, wasn't a fan of the Czar.

But the problem with consolidating this as any kind of conspiracy was that after the Bolsheviks became prominent, Schiff was adamantly opposed to them and funded anyone except for the Bolsheviks, going so far as to fund Kerensky to fight the Bolsheviks.

[Balancer]

I don't think Lenin was actually Jewish.

Also, off the top of my head, Bukharin isn't there, nor is ...

Among revolutionaries, really, there were many Jews. I won't give exact assessment of quantity, I didn't study a question in detail. Though them will be, of course, less, than in the list of the beginning of a topic.

But the reasons of it are much more prosy, I believe. Without any conspiracy theory. In imperial Russia Orthodoxy was the state religion. And was to representatives of other belief heavier, than the Orthodox Christian. Therefore Jews supported the idea of revolution more actively.

[The Immortal Goon]

And it was an urban revolution and since Jews were (mostly) prohibited from owning land in Czarist Russia, the urban population was disproportionately Jewish. But in no way majority in either case.

[david.findley]

Hmm, well it is important for me to understand that the extent of any 'international jewry' does not branch out so far as to actually fill the ranks of the Bolsheviks.

Hmm, yes, since the Rothschilds and their dealings with European countries through the naploneanic era, this particular legacy of 'internationals' have been quickly and eagerly funding all sides of virtually every conflict, I am learning..

Here is the link again to that book, which chronicles to great extent the conspiracy of the west to fund and push the Bolshevik revolution;

https://www.voltairenet.org/IMG/pdf/Sut ... tion-5.pdf

[david.findley]

ah! going over that book myself, I have discovered:

"Probably the most superficially damning collection of documents on the Jewish conspiracy is in the State Department Decimal File (861.00/5339). The central document is one entitled "Bolshevism and Judaism," dated November 13, 1918. The text is in the form of a report, which states that the revolution in Russia was engineered "in February 1916" and "it was found that the following persons and firms were engaged in this destructive work":
(1) Jacob Schiff Jew (2) Kuhn, Loeb & Company Jewish Firm Management: Jacob Schiff Jew Felix Warburg Jew Otto H. Kahn Jew Mortimer L. Schiff Jew Jerome J. Hanauer Jew (3) Guggenheim Jew (4) Max Breitung Jew (5) Isaac Seligman Jew
The report goes on to assert that there can be no doubt that the Russian Revolution was started and engineered by this group and that in April 1917"


...another list of jews, hohoh! ...but in all seriousness... well. right now I just poured over 150 pages of another book 'rise of the house of rothschilds', my eyes are about to pop out of my head.. but I will be reading this book here shortly in due order, in it's entirety.. but, I think that you should have a look at it.

[david.findley]

ok, ok, read down to the end of the chapter,

" The evidence provided in this book suggests that the New York bankers who were also Jewish had relatively minor roles in supporting the Bolsheviks, while the New York bankers who were also Gentiles (Morgan, Rockefeller, Thompson) had major roles.
What better way to divert attention from the real operators than by the medieval bogeyman of anti-Semitism?"


..so, at this point, it is almost beginning to feel wrong to continue to pursue the point. HOWEVER. If we go back to prf Quigley, we learn that the 'jewish' and 'anglo-saxon' international capitalists are one, single cabal.

hmm.. But did it really have to be Talmudic Judaism seeking revenge and world domination, driving these internationalist forces..?

[david.findley]

... I don't know... there is just so much contextual and testimonial evidence to drive this conspiracy. and I say 'Talmudic judaism' but really.. just orthodox Judaism. going back to religiously devout and pious jew meyer Rothschild .. through his sons, family, their connections.. why is it ridiculous to claim that their religious background had any influence over their actions and agendas? ..why is it ridiculous to suggest a shadowy network of world-powerful jews (and Anglo-Saxon 'lieutenants',) assert themselves in such a way, when they have such a long , long history of oppression ?

and I mean, come on.. we have all these resources, but also.. hitler.. Bakunin.. Churchill. Despite how Sutton closes the chapter, I don't wholly agree with him.. There is a substantial body of circumstantial evidence implicating this very conclusion..

[david.findley]

none dare call it conspiracy;

Today it is estimated by Jacob's grandson, John Schiff, that the old man sank about $20,000,000 for the final triumph of Bolshevism in Russia
New York Journal-America of February 3, 1949

[The Immortal Goon]

... I don't know... there is just so much contextual and testimonial evidence to drive this conspiracy. and I say 'Talmudic judaism' but really.. just orthodox Judaism. going back to religiously devout and pious jew meyer Rothschild .. through his sons, family, their connections.. why is it ridiculous to claim that their religious background had any influence over their actions and agendas? ..why is it ridiculous to suggest a shadowy network of world-powerful jews (and Anglo-Saxon 'lieutenants',) assert themselves in such a way, when they have such a long , long history of oppression ?

Because as with most conspiracy theories, the motive makes no sense on top of there being no direct evidence.

Particularly religious Jews funded a movement of Russian atheists that wanted to end all religion?

The bankers wanted to fund the communists that nationalized the economy and hunted down the bankers?

And in the case of Schiff, though there is no direct evidence he gave money to the Bolsheviks, after he does he bankrolls Kerensky against the Bolsheviks. Which makes the whole thing a pretty shit conspiracy if it is one.

[Lightman]

TIG, you make the mistake of engaging the anti-Semite with fact. As Sartre points out, the anti-Semite cannot possibly believe his lies on a factual level. The whole point is to force irrationalism into the discourse.

There is nothing that will convince Comrade "I'm not an anti-Semite, I just think the Protocols were a real document showing Jewish world domination". Anti-Semitism is not a learned opinion but rather a pathology.

[david.findley]

@The Immortal Goon,

There may be little or no direct evidence, but we're talking about growing bodies of circumstantial evidence that cannot be denied... all the way to the beginning of my quest, when I realized that Marx did not so much as even mentioned the International Financiers, or once the name of Rothschild.. and in fact his educational history wholly omits any mention of it.. though by 1867, when he wrote Das Kapital, the international bankers had QUITE the reputation, especially the Rothschilds, since through the Napoleanic wars. NOT. POSSIBLE. Marx and Engels, in their circles of boojie friends, taking DECADES of 'research' to put this first book together.. and then completely miss out on perhaps the single most important thing..?

Because MORESO than the little nobles who run the mill or the mine, the bakery or the smith, against whom Marx gets us to agree that we need to outright kill -- MORE important than these, are the banks, and the international bankers who run the banks and control the nations currency. but NO WHERE does it say.

Marx didn't create communism to save nations. he wrote it to destroy nations. Tell me this is a conspiracy? then so be it.

So perhaps the Internationals who put bolshevism in motion.. perhaps they had nothing to gain from Russia, anyway. Perhaps they just wanted it destroyed and replaced, again and again. Maybe communism wasn't really meant to be successful. So.. for Schiff to fund both sides..? It makes sense to me.

PS look at Marx's personal life. Where did he get all his money? did he have any relatives potentially linked to international banking industry? ... so.. engels gave marx all the money he needed to support his family as well as he did.. besides that.. who in the world really has lifelong friendships like that? it's not natural, the marx/engels friendship. not natural at all. You know what binded them together? the secret society they were in, and the mission they were charged with.

Yes, I definitely believe in the conspiracy.. maybe I am digging up a lot of false information.. but that does not mean there is a core of truth to it all.