Wellsy wrote:So I'm not sure where you got your account of events as this is the summary of that store clerk's testimony in court.
You can assume that you are better informed on the matter than I am. I only give a cursory amount of time to public questions like this anymore. Generally, a dispute arose over Floyd uttering a counterfeit bill, and the police were called. I don't think the finer details are that much more meaningful to the impending outcome of the trial.
Wellsy wrote:However, one could still be consistent in wanting such taxation and be upset with the death of Garner and Floyd as they are fucked up outcomes even in the pursuit of such arrests. There is no reason they absolutely had to play out that way other than the officer's means of restraining them.
I agree substantially, but there is one other material factor: both Floyd and Garner resisted arrest. In fact, that's the most common thread in most of these cases.
Wellsy wrote:But it also points to a larger issue of poverty in America where a lot of crime is economic in nature and even the violence surrounding crime is economic, even in prisons, drugs stuff is about money and while regular society has police to protect property and force compliance to certain contractual standards, the regular criminal has to muscle up on people themselves.
Ermmm... I tend to agree that economics is a strong motivator... but in prison? You aren't going to go hungry or without shelter in prison. Medium and maximum security are substantially less safe, for sure. However, at that point, I think it makes sense to start looking at drug use in a behavioral rather than purely economic sense.
Wellsy wrote:But the term resisting arrest seems to get so vague that it becomes a blanket defense that includes someone who actively fights police, compared to someone like Floyd where there doesn't seem to be evidence of him fighting police any more than that after he was cuffed he sat down a couple times. I can see in one case the escalation of violence and the need for police to employ greater force, in other cases you're wondering why they are themselves escalating things other than perhaps a power trip.
Ah... but is the power trip economic for the police officer? Does he get more money for this? No. Behaviorally, some who resist arrest simply go limp to make life difficult for the police. So Chauvin was likely returning the favor--again, this in no way excuses Chauvin's behavior. It may explain a motivation for it.
Wellsy wrote:An expert witness, a retired police officer and I think former chief said how ridiculous this approach was when they could simply wait the guy out because it was so cold that it was inevitable he'd have to come down himself.
I'm inclined to agree, but that's a directive the officers need to receive. They get paid by the hour, and most would be happy to have their shift go into overtime to make more money. The bean bag incident then becomes a lawsuit to shakedown the police. However, if the police do nothing, people sometimes get injured too. I have a friend who is a police officer. They had to arrest a guy on PCP who jumped out of a second floor window, and broke his leg. He was running around on the broken leg, and probably injuring himself even more as the cops waited for him to spin down and collapse.
Wellsy wrote:Like again, how is Floyd dead when he was already cuffed and largely secured?
Personally, I think it was due to his physical health, drugs in his system, and denial of medical care by Chauvin and his colleagues. I heard some of the evidence testimony by medical doctors, which I found less than credible. Like many, I think Chauvin's actions--while probably not intending to kill Floyd--were plainly inexcusable. However, I don't think overcharging someone because you are angry with what he did, or manufacturing evidence is proper either.
Wellsy wrote:I however think it at best can only be a contributing factor to the higher police shootings, but many don't seem dependent on any fear and anxiety inherent to the situation.
The peculiar aspects of the Floyd and Garner cases is that the decedents were not shot by police, but that their deaths were likely precipitated by the arrests with their health problems being a significant contributory factor; and, of course, both were resisting arrest.
Wellsy wrote:Maybe only the subjective and heitened anxiety claimed by some police who amp up their defense as fearing for their lives in situations that can be debatable.
Well, there are certainly people who aren't temperamentally suited to being police officers. Sometimes, that temperament comes from being a soldier in a combat zone, which can often lead to using tactics that are appropriate in a military situation that are inappropriate in a policing situation. Police also encounter one hell of a lot of abuse. That is part of their job duty, and they are expected to take that and still act professionally. However, it does take a toll on them.
Wellsy wrote:That is ultimately what is up for consideration, and one has to make the explicit case that such health factors were so significant that it negated the relationship between the knee on the back and claims of asphyixation and that they died through other means.
Well, that's why I say that in my opinion, the appropriate charge is a manslaughter charge. Frankly, I'm more concerned about preventing paramedics from seeing to Floyd than I am about the tactics, which I also think were unnecessary. Clearly, Floyd was complaining of respiratory distress, and plenty of people witnessed that fact and voiced concern. So I think a "reasonable person" in that case should also include the paramedics and witnesses.
Wellsy wrote:But that is quite distinct from Chauvin's actions as the primary cause of death and it seems a weak defense to then go well they weren't the healthiest of people.
If they just acquit Chauvin, I agree. I think it's much harder to prove second degree murder, and a lot of people want that because they want to see the police punished more severely for their behavior. For example, in the Rodney King case, the police were acquitted not because they were innocent, but because they didn't use a deadly weapon and that's what the charge said. Prosecutors get overzealous with police just as they do with others. It's why I think prosecutors need to be reigned in quite a bit.
Wellsy wrote:I'm thinking of cases where the average guy gets into a fight and the other person is in a coma on life support, the line between them going to prison for a very long time for murder is quite close in that case and their bodies abilities to survive their beating would similarly be based on their general health.
Yes, and that's your second degree murder case. Again, the murder was unintentional, but the perpetrator was committing another crime which led to the death.
Wellsy wrote:Well the US also had the significance of being a global empire and with a media, that pretty much permeates the rest of the world.
Yes, and I'm quite tired of American media, and I would guess much of the rest of the world is too.
Wellsy wrote:Which in the back of my mind does seem to suggest that yeah crime is so bad that they're stealing everything and of course who would be buying bootleg milk? Rather sounds more like people be stealing milk and food for themselves.
It's often just people supporting a drug habit/addiction. We've had problems with the government giving people welfare for food--they can't buy anything else with it. They buy food at the grocery store. Then, they go and sell the food at a discount for cash and buy alcohol or drugs. So that can happen both with shoplifting and with the benefits received from welfare. It's why I'm inclined to think that we'll need to have some mandatory drug treatment programs and rehabilitation rather than simple imprisonment.
Wellsy wrote:It seems like it's just part of the larger problem in which I tend to think crime has a clear economic basis even when it ecalates beyond that into more directly cultural and violent forms, certain kinds of crime do not exist equally everywhere.
Sure. However, as to fear, it really depends. I lived in San Francisco for six years. When I lived in the Richmond on La Playa (Ocean Beach), I saw a Filipino gang shooting at the Safeway across the street. In some senses, it's right across the street. Danger close. In other respects, it might as well be a million miles away. If you're not into drugs or gangs, chances are you won't encounter that stuff. However, different people act differently. I was once sitting on the BART train. A black kid was sitting across from me. We were going through Oakland, and he had a hoodie on and looked a bit menacing. When we got through the tunnel into Orinda (a wealthy mostly white suburb), he took off his hoodie and appeared visibly relieved to be beyond Oakland. It seems he was looking tough to discourage anyone in the Oakland area from starting anything with him.
The problem with Asians getting mugged is mostly black people mugging Asians. The media deliberately omits the black part. The reason the Atlanta, Georgia shooting garnered so much attention was that the US media has a strong anti-white bias now. So they wanted to blame the "racist" anti-Asian attacks on bad white people, even though they already know it's overwhelmingly perpetrated by blacks, primarily on older Asians, and primarily because older Asians tend to carry a lot of cash on them.
Wellsy wrote:I think this also touches on a point in support of the idea that the US can be compared to the other countries where there is greater violence in that many Americans who travel the world and are told, aren't you afraid to be in those scary dangerous places talk about having lived and experienced the ghettos of America where you can just as likely get your ass robbed and beaten in a parking lot down town. America got some rough places.
Yes, and this is why I think Covid is a crisis for urban centers. By allowing homeless encampments, drug use, permitting public urination and defecation, refusing to prosecute shoplifting, car break-ins, etc., people who can now work at home will see no reason to endure a crushing commute only to be subjected to the incredible unpleasantness of "progressive" and "woke" cities.
The drugs like fentanyl coming from China via the Mexican border are wreaking havoc as well. Frankly, I think the media and the government are profiting from all the death and destruction somehow. There has to be significant bribery and corruption involved. Organized crime, etc. There's simply no better explanation for this level of dereliction.
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