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#14827171
Hindsite wrote:Just making that claim is not good enough to convince me that it is true.

What's not true, the international rate of health care or the American unemployment rate?


I am sorry, but I am not convinced that Obama had anything to do with the present unemployment rate. Anything else?

I did not say he was
#14827195
Hindsite said: I am sorry, but I am not convinced that Obama had anything to do with the present unemployment rate. Anything else?


:lol: You ought to be. We spent nearly a trillion extra dollars during his presidency to get to where we are today. Do you really think that the current low unemployment rate is a result of Trump's 6 month old policies? :eh:

As to single-payer saving money...Well. It does in every nation in the world that has it. And these data are old and carefully tested. But that evidence won't work for you? :roll:
#14827306
Drlee wrote::lol: You ought to be. We spent nearly a trillion extra dollars during his presidency to get to where we are today. Do you really think that the current low unemployment rate is a result of Trump's 6 month old policies? :eh:

Yeah. It certainly was not due to Obama's policies.

Drlee wrote:As to single-payer saving money...Well. It does in every nation in the world that has it. And these data are old and carefully tested. But that evidence won't work for you? :roll:

Well, I don't want America to be just like every other nation. I want this to remain the land of the free and the brave. That includes freedom to bear arms and to choose my doctor and healthcare.

I am for letting those that want to remain with Obamacare to be able to do so as long as we open up competition in the market place for many more choices in healthcare. Everyone should have the choice to choose a plan that fits their needs at the best price the market will allow. No one should be forced by threat of penalty to pay for a bloated plan they can hardly afford in order to subsidize others. That amounts to government thief, in my opinion.
#14827322
Hindsite wrote:and to choose my doctor and healthcare.


You can with universal healthcare. You're beating a dead horse, honestly.
#14827340
redcarpet wrote:You can with universal healthcare. You're beating a dead horse, honestly.

I have become very skeptical of the honesty of the liberal socialist. They are like the communist who believe the end justifies the means. So being dishonest is acceptable, if the goal is obtained as Obama apparently believed. Obama believed lying to to people was a method to obtain his goal. To me, it is dishonest. For me, when someone claims "honestly", it only raises a red flag in my mind.
#14827345
And yet you can't cite a single nation with UHC as an example of people not being able to choose their G.P or where to go for treatment.

And far be it for a Trump-supporter to complain about dishonesty!
#14827356
redcarpet wrote:And yet you can't cite a single nation with UHC as an example of people not being able to choose their G.P or where to go for treatment.

And far be it for a Trump-supporter to complain about dishonesty!

I have already mentioned before that I am not interested in how other nations handle their healthcare. I am more interested in making America great again, greater than ever before. I don't believe UHC will help make America greater. It is more likely, in my opinion, to make America weaker. We are the ones providing the funds for most of the new achievements in medical care that the other nations use.
#14827362
Lol, an opinion against UHC that you admit has no factual foundation......It's not rational, remember.

It's only rational to have a view based on confirmed facts.

Otherwise you're relying on Fake News reports from FNC & Brietbart like "NHS in UK Says 'NO!' to 10,000 patients per year", etc
#14827368
redcarpet wrote:Lol, an opinion against UHC that you admit has no factual foundation......It's not rational, remember.

It's only rational to have a view based on confirmed facts.

Otherwise you're relying on Fake News reports from FNC & Brietbart like "NHS in UK Says 'NO!' to 10,000 patients per year", etc

What confirmed facts? Do you mean those put forward by CNN, MSNBC, and the liberal Fake News media. I don't get news from Brietbart. However, I do trust much of FOX News to give fair and balanced Real News.
#14827387
"Never argue with stupid people. They drag you down to their level and beat you with experience." Mark Twain. Random thought.

That includes freedom to bear arms and to choose my doctor and healthcare.



:lol:

I am for letting those that want to remain with Obamacare to be able to do so as long as we open up competition in the market place for many more choices in healthcare.



There is no Obamacare as you obviously view it. You are tilting with a windmill.

Everyone should have the choice to choose a plan that fits their needs at the best price the market will allow.


You may get this. I hope YOU do. I hope none of my friends do.


No one should be forced by threat of penalty to pay for a bloated plan they can hardly afford in order to subsidize others. That amounts to government thief, in my opinion.


English much? Nobody has this now unless, of course, they have something offered by their employer.

Here is a news flash for you. You may think you know your doctor but he/she does not know you. Unless you see your doctor very often they are really good and making you think that they remember you and your problems. They are simply reading your medical records.

But, of course, you are mistaken that people in countries with single-payer systems do not see the same doctor regularly. You should be used to being mistaken.
#14827398
Drlee wrote:But, of course, you are mistaken that people in countries with single-payer systems do not see the same doctor regularly. You should be used to being mistaken.

Can they also change to another doctor as their regular doctor if they wish? Are they allowed to get second and third opinions from other doctors if they wish? Do you really know the answers to all this?
I get the feeling you are just trying to pull one over me. But as I said before, I am more interested in what happens in America than in some other country. I want to maintain as much freedom of choice in healthcare as possible. The patient in consultation with their doctors should be free to determine the best medical care for that patient without interference from the government.
#14827425
Hindsite wrote:Can they also change to another doctor as their regular doctor if they wish? Are they allowed to get second and third opinions from other doctors if they wish?


Yes.

Whereas in the US private system you can be told NO to any treatment or drugs because you can't afford their prices/premiums, etc. To the point that 18,000 Americans die every year because they are deprived of healthcare because they can't afford it.
#14827426
Hindsight

I get you don't like you liberals, and that's fine. Nothing hinges on it. But the idea that it's in America's best interest to ignore the rest of the world is to waste the most valuable resource you need going forward. You have medicare and medicare, military healthcare, Hawaii and more, but this isn't a patch on Scandinavia, Italy, Germany, Switzerland and on and on. And the entire UK and The Commonwealth. A scientist would be reviewing the models most similar to what you want. The work has been done, used for decades, and it's free. You can see what happened under a variety of economical condition, social conditions; see what works best and get an educated guess how it would work in America. This is gold.

We choose our doctors. We can get alternative advice/see second and third doctors. Change doctors. We own guns. We worship were we wish and we don't blow up other people's churches or temples or worshippers.
#14827432
Stormsmith wrote:Hindsight

I get you don't like you liberals, and that's fine. Nothing hinges on it. But the idea that it's in America's best interest to ignore the rest of the world is to waste the most valuable resource you need going forward. You have medicare and medicare, military healthcare, Hawaii and more, but this isn't a patch on Scandinavia, Italy, Germany, Switzerland and on and on. And the entire UK and The Commonwealth. A scientist would be reviewing the models most similar to what you want. The work has been done, used for decades, and it's free. You can see what happened under a variety of economical condition, social conditions; see what works best and get an educated guess how it would work in America. This is gold.

We choose our doctors. We can get alternative advice/see second and third doctors. Change doctors. We own guns. We worship were we wish and we don't blow up other people's churches or temples or worshippers.

That sounds good , if true. I have been told so many lies, here in America, during my lifetime that I am skeptical of anything that sounds too good to be true.

In politics, the liberal Democrats here have been the worse when it comes to lying to the public. I voted for one local Democrat that told me he was also a conservative when I informed him I was conservative and did not vote for liberals. He must have told other conservatives the same thing because two years later, after he voted with the other liberal Democrats on Obamacare and everything else but on guns, we voted him out of office and put a conservative Republican in his place. I haven't voted for a Democrat since then and probably never will again because I doubt that there are any conservative Democrats left in that party. I don't like being lied to over and over.

Some of the Republicans in office in other states are somewhat liberal on some issues too. They are referred to as RINOs (Republicans in name only). Susan Collins of Maine is one of those RINOs. However, I live in the state of Georgia and can't do much about what happens in the state of Maine. She is one of the problems in being able to repeal and replace Obamacare. She seems to like it for her state.
#14827463
Private health care and government health care being affordable, both require price controls on the medical community. Either system could work. Most doctors would be willing to devote free services to the poor, if allowed by their administration.
#14827487
One Degree wrote:Private health care and government health care being affordable, both require price controls on the medical community. Either system could work. Most doctors would be willing to devote free services to the poor, if allowed by their administration.

Free services. Someone, somehow, is paying for those free services. Usually it is the sneaky people in government using our tax money. I am more in favor of freedom of services with freedom of choice by the customer. However, I don't object to modest price controls to keep all providers as honest as reasonably possible, as long as they do not drive providers out of business. I believe complete government control of healthcare will lead in too much inefficiency and eventual collapse of quality healthcare.
#14827489
Hindsite wrote:Free services. Someone, somehow, is paying for those free services. Usually it is the sneaky people in government using our tax money. I am more in favor of freedom of services with freedom of choice by the customer. However, I don't object to modest price controls to keep all providers as honest as reasonably possible, as long as they do not drive providers out of business. I believe complete government control of healthcare will lead in too much inefficiency and eventual collapse of quality healthcare.


The purpose of government is to control those who are causing harm to the general population. US health care is causing tremendous harm and therefore it is the governments responsibility to step in. If fairness and compassion had been the goals instead of greed, then the government would not need to step in.
#14827495
One Degree wrote:The purpose of government is to control those who are causing harm to the general population. US health care is causing tremendous harm and therefore it is the governments responsibility to step in. If fairness and compassion had been the goals instead of greed, then the government would not need to step in.

I believe the government stepping in with both feet is what caused the current problem in healthcare. Maybe it would be better if the government would just get out of the way, at least, for a little while to see what happens. That is what repealing Obamacare without replacing it will do. But people in Congress have too much self interest to do that. Besides, they kept themselves out of Obamacare. It was not good enough for them.
#14827500
I believe complete government control of healthcare will lead in too much inefficiency and eventual collapse of quality healthcare.

The UK's fully socialized healthcare costs half as much and is twice as efficient as US private healthcare.

What the NHS 'A&E crisis' looks like in comparison to America's private healthcare, Business Insider UK wrote:There is no such thing as a "free," of course, but the per-capita cost of healthcare in the UK (paid by the government via tax collections) is generally lower than the US, according to the World Health Organization. Americans spend $8,362 per capita on healthcare annually, the Brits spend $3,480.

[...]

Americans think they have the best healthcare in the world. Take it from me, a fellow American: They don't.

World Health Organization Ranking; The World’s Health Systems

1 France

...

18 United Kingdom

...

37 USA


:)
#14827503
Hindsite wrote:I believe the government stepping in with both feet is what caused the current problem in healthcare. Maybe it would be better if the government would just get out of the way, at least, for a little while to see what happens. That is what repealing Obamacare without replacing it will do. But people in Congress have too much self interest to do that. Besides, they kept themselves out of Obamacare. It was not good enough for them.


Well, it does not personally concern me much anymore, but I still remember every time I opened my HMO bill the price had increased dramatically. I, like many, were forced to drop out of it and trust to luck. Private health care had their chance and chose to rob us.
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