[The_Communist_Threat]

The Soviet involvement was a huge one...but the leaders of the other nations didn't throw lives away like Stalin...by looking at the numbers, it seems like Stalin just used people with shovels to fight against the Germans....while Americans and British seemed to care about human lives....

[Tovarish Spetsnaz]

Hmm....ok Communist threat...a very nice observation...based on what exactly???

According to most sources...Axis and Soviet casulaties during the war were about 1.4:1...Germany lost about 6 million soldiers on the Eastern Front and the other Axes allies lost more than 1 million. Soviets lost about 10 million soldiers...a ratio of 1.4:1...

What do you mean care for people??? You mean surrender like the French??? Or keep away from fighting like the British??? Or getting into the war after the Germans were well defeated like the Americans???

[The_Communist_Threat]

Well, first, your number of German casualites is slightly inflated...most sources will have that number between 3.5-4.5 million....

and your number of russian casualties is recorded to by as high as 12 million...of course, this is pointless.....no one will ever know exactly...

The numbers appear to show that Stalin sent people to war without the proper equipment to stop Hitler's army, this is not caring...(unless of course he underestimated Hitler's army, and in this case, Stalin is just a fool)

You mean surrender like the French???

It's better to surrender than to fight in a battle you know you can't win...by fighting they would simply delay the inevitable...

Or keep away from fighting like the British???

O yeah, because Stalin did a lot before he got fooled like a little bitch by Hitler...(Non-Aggression Pact)....what a wonderful move made by an awful man...no matter how much you hate Hitler or his ideas, you have to see that he was a genius....(he did make mistakes though, big ones)

Or getting into the war after the Germans were well defeated like the Americans???

the americans lost 280,000 soldiers and forced the japanese to surrender...without the american influence, it would have been a much longer conflict...

You people talk about how the USSR did a great thing in this war, they didn't do shit until they had to, like the americans that you criticize....although, the americans didn't HAVE to join in the war....

[Tovarish Spetsnaz]

Ahh...you'r an idiot...

Hitler was a genious...yes...fine...LOL

Stalin send people to war without the proper equipment. Seen Enemy at the Gates lately??? You must have...thats where you got such a brilliant idea.

Oh yes...the French way was the best way...if you can't beat them...join them. Excellent...why don't you go join the Republican Party than Threat...they'd love you there.

6 million is the number of German loses including captured...as is the Soviet number. Casualties...isn't just dead.

Hmm...Non-Aggression Pact...fooled Stalin. Foold you more like it...because you don't know what the pact was and what it was supposed to do. It turned the war to the west. Hitler wanted to go west...but couldn't until he had secured his eastern borders. He could have done that with war...or he could have done that with peace. Stalin agreed to peace...and that bought about 18 months for the USSR to prepare for war...while Hitler fought the west. During that 18 months...T-34, KV-1, Il-2, Pe-2 and other such absolutely necessary weapons were put into production. Hmm...the poorly equipped Red Army...a fooled Stalin???

Maybe you should read Zhukov's memoirs instead of your 8th grade History book...

Just my suggestion...

[The_Communist_Threat]

the thing is TS, is that if i had a photograph of Stalin with his penis in a guys ass, you would say 'umm...thats not stalin, its a look-a-like"....(i have no problem with homosexuality, but TS does )

Seen Enemy at the Gates lately???

nope, never....

Oh yes...the French way was the best way...if you can't beat them...join them. Excellent...why don't you go join the Republican Party than Threat...they'd love you there.

haha...umm, they didn't join them...and i dont see my self joining the GOP anytime soon...and no, they'd hate me there....

6 million is the number of German loses including captured...as is the Soviet number.

I'm going to have to disagree with this, but there's no point in arguing any further with you about this...(any number i find is just CNN/BBC propaganda, right TS?)

Hmm...Non-Aggression Pact...fooled Stalin. Foold you more like it...because you don't know what the pact was and what it was supposed to do. It turned the war to the west. Hitler wanted to go west...but couldn't until he had secured his eastern borders. He could have done that with war...or he could have done that with peace. Stalin agreed to peace...and that bought about 18 months for the USSR to prepare for war...while Hitler fought the west. During that 18 months...T-34, KV-1, Il-2, Pe-2 and other such absolutely necessary weapons were put into production. Hmm...the poorly equipped Red Army...a fooled Stalin???

umm...all right, but you must see that lies and propaganda do go both ways....o wait, yeah, everything stalin says has to be true, i mean, why would he lie??

So, stalin waited for hitler to invade him....and even with this preperation he still lost a lot of fucking troops....without hitlers mistakes he would have taken moscow, even when he was fighting on the west....

Maybe you should read Zhukov's memoirs instead of your 8th grade History book...

I will, right after i finish reading the bible....

[Kov]

All sides other than America where very important. As much as many would complain that Brittain would be NAZI without the US, I contest and say that a German Invasion of Brittian would be far to foolish. All others sides where very important.

But... without America Hitler would have a few more years on his hands, and thus he would have atomics and stelth fighters (this is actual fact).

[Yeddi]

It can't be fact KOv cause it never happened... you don't know what may have happened if america didn't enter until later... or at all.

[Adrien]

You mean surrender like the French???

Shame on us... Well, at least surrendering saved many lives. But the shame is what followed. And it could have been avoided with the idea of UK too.

Well, history is history.

[Georgi Zhukov]

True, the French surrender did save a lot of lives. They could have fought on and on and on like Germany at the end of the war under the weight of Russian attack, but that would have cost the lives of many millions of innocent Frenchmen and women, and they did fight on in a way--with the French Resistance and other organizations, like the Free French Forces.

And very, very true, America did not win the war over Germany. It was the efforts of all the Allies and induviduals that brought about victory. I mean, if Britain had been taken, D-day probably would never have happened. I mean, a cross channel invasion was hard enough, but trans-atlantic? They would have had to hit Britain first, then move on to France. There would have been no base the American and British bombers to bomb the factories and industries supporting the Reich war effort, and Germany could have thrown the full weight of her forces at Russia. This is not to say that the Russian front would have been a solid victory; there was no realistic objective for the entire invasion, supply lines were strained to the limit near Moscow, let alone any point after that, and the Russian winter would have grond their forces down. So in a very big way, Russia played a pivotal role in the war. America just tipped the balance against Germany a bit more than they could handle, but if America had to fight Germany one on one, it would have been a war of attrition with very little battlefield contact until sometime after 1943 or even 1944. By then the Third Reich would be solidly entrenched in their positions and more than likely it would have ended in a negotiated peace.

The world would be very, very different then.

[Adrien]

True, the French surrender did save a lot of lives. They could have fought on and on and on like Germany at the end of the war under the weight of Russian attack, but that would have cost the lives of many millions of innocent Frenchmen and women, and they did fight on in a way--with the French Resistance and other organizations, like the Free French Forces.

Too bad it was Pétain in charge, world didn't need more deportations and atrocities. Anyway, in June 1940, when the government was in Bordeaux, UK sent a message with the idea of merging the two countries.

We'll never know what consequences this solution may have had.

[Red Bear]

Think what would happen if Hitler decided to scorth down UK trops in Danqerk that were fleeing from France.Or if Hitler manage to go faster trough Yugoslavia and enter Russia before winter.

[Tovarish Spetsnaz]

Soviets captured about 3.576.300 Axis troops. About 3.5 million German troops killed on the Eastern Front. Total German losses on Eastern Front were 6.923.700 troops...and another 1.725.800 Axis troops lost on the Eastern Front...(Romania itself lost about 1 million dead or captured)

Total Axes losses on Soviet front were 8.649.500...

Soviet losses were 11.440.100...That gives a ratio of 1.32:1

During the war 607 Axis divisions were destroyed on the Eastern Front. 176 were destroyed elsewhere.

80% of all German ground forces were lost on the Eastern Front.

Soviet AF destroyed 70.000 Axis aircraft. All others destroyed about 20.000.

Soviet AF losses were 100.000...a ratio of 1.4:1

78% of German AF was destroyed on the Eastern Front.
75% of German tanks were destroyed on the Eastern Front.

1000 German aircraft were shot down on the first 2 weeks of Operation Barbarossa...as many as the Germans lost in 3 months of the Battle of Britain.


Doesn't seem to me that the Red Army was an ill-equipped ineffective army you say it was TCT...


The French Army in 1940...was the largest in the world...and considered to be the most powerful in the world. Germany defeated it in 2 weeks. WHY??? Was it becasue they could not fight??? Or becasue the officers deserted or were German collaborators???

So you still say the Red Army was ineffective and Stalin was responsible for it??? Think again!!! The German Army was by far the best in the world at the time...defeated the combined European armies in 2 weeks. Red Army on the other hand...broke its back.

[The_Communist_Threat]

hmm....well, germany was fighting an OFFENSIVE war on two fronts....and they still got within 100miles of moscow...

i could come right back at you with a bunch of bullshit numbers too...but whats the point....it is meaningless, it won't achieve anything in either way...and, you would just call it "lies and propaganda"..just like everything that is "anti-stalin"....it's hard for me to imagine why you can't see that there are lies both ways, you are blind for the good side, and no blindness is ever good...


Stalin did not win because of his strategy, he won because of hitler's mistakes...If Hitler does it the way he should have, he takes moscow...of course, this didn't happen...so....o well...

The French Army in 1940...was the largest in the world...and considered to be the most powerful in the world. Germany defeated it in 2 weeks. WHY??? Was it becasue they could not fight??? Or becasue the officers deserted or were German collaborators???

or because they didn't want to die and fight in vain??

[Tovarish Spetsnaz]

Hitler's mistakes??? I think not...

But than again...do you know of anyone who has not made mistakes in war??? If you never make mistakes...you always win!!...so what you say makes no sense...on a military sense.

Take Moscow?? So take it...did it have any military or strategic meaning to the Soviets?? None...Moscow was meaningless...it was just a symbol. Take Moscow...the war doesn't end...

Hitler on the other hand proved to have made some right decisions...such as going after Stalingrad instead of Moscow. But it was military weaknesses that allowed the Soviets to win...break in the line of the Germans at their weakest point and surround them.

History isn't black and white...Hitler made a mistake...and therefore the Soviets won. No...there are far too many factors to take into account. When the Germans planned the attack on Kursk...Soviet spies discovered the attack plans and allowed the Soviets to set up a trap at Kursk.


Simply put...both sides made mistakes...both sides had weaknesses...that is war...there is no war which is fought with no mistakes. But the war was won by the nation with the greater will...the greater military and economic potential...

[Deicidus]

Any one of you know that Joe Kennedy was 2 days away of concluding an alliance with Hitler?

Want to discuss about it?

[Adrien]

The French Army in 1940...was the largest in the world...and considered to be the most powerful in the world. Germany defeated it in 2 weeks. WHY??? Was it becasue they could not fight??? Or becasue the officers deserted or were German collaborators???

or because they didn't want to die and fight in vain??

That's certainly true after 14/18 trauma, but there also a total chaotic organisation, quite like in 1870.

[Proctor]

...no matter how much you hate Hitler or his ideas, you have to see that he was a genius

I'll second that.

TS, you're probably right about Stalin just using the non aggression pact to buy time. But your wrong about Hitler wanting to go west. He never wanted to go west, but it became neccessary when the French entered the war. Then once that was over, he had time to prepare for war with the Soviets as well. Hitler was just buying time too. But if Stalin signed the pact so the French could get shot instead of the Russians for a little while, thats still pretty immoral.

Without Soviet involvment...wir würden Deutsches sprechen

:lol: Nice, I like it. But keep in mind that if America hadn't fought the Japanese...watashitachi nihongo o hanasu imasu. At least New Zealand and Australia anyway.

Zhukov makes a very good point. If Britain had been captured (which it would have easily if Germany won the Battle of Britain), America couldn't win. So if the Eastern Front never existed, America couldn't have won.

While we're on the subject, I recommend Fatherland by Thomas Harris. It details what the world would be like if Hitler had won. It's very scary.

Any one of you know that Joe Kennedy was 2 days away of concluding an alliance with Hitler?

Want to discuss about it?

Sure! Care to elaborate?

[Tovarish Spetsnaz]

But if Stalin signed the pact so the French could get shot instead of the Russians for a little while, thats still pretty immoral.

Actaully Hitler did want to go west...he wanted to secure his western front before going against Russia...

But why is that immoral??? France and Britain had been in a virtual state of war with the USSR since Finland. France and England were giving Hitler a free hand to advance east...giving him Austria, Czechoslovakia...and Poland (England's puppet) was negotiating allowing the German Army into Poland in order to go and invade Lithuania. Clearly...they were opening the door to Hitler to go east...they wanted him to go against the USSR.

USSR just turned the tables on them...I would have done the same...to save the USSR.

Hitler did not go west becasue the French entered the war. That did not happen overnight...as if the French just woke up one morning and Hitler realized he had a threat in the west. No...Hitler of course had plans against the French long before that. The French declared war becasue they realized that Hitler was not going to attack the Soviets any time soon...but would turn on them from now on.

[Stanislav]

The Soviets were the major factor, they put their men out there on the line, lost a lot of em, and kicked Nazi ass. The sheer power of the Red Army was shown off when they freaking pushed the Germans out of Stalingrad, out of Moscow, and finally out of Kiev. And then, after being beat badly on their soil, turn around and cut right through Germany to the heart of Berlin and capture the city. Now if you ask me, that is some courage and perseverance, not too mention brute force.

[Kov]

Comrades, at the end of the war, we had information that Japan had no plans of attacking Russia.

But the American/Japanise war was without doubt a personal war, Japan had all the rights of her nation to retaliate against the American imperalisum that started the war before any gunshots where fired.