[Godstud]

I've read a report that the barrel could get so hot that the wooden fixtures could char!!

That's hardly limited to older weapons. I charred the wooden fixtures of of my C1A1(FN FAL) 7.62mm rifle, and I had to have the fore-stock replaced once. (The C2 version had a thicker barrel, a 30 round magazine, a bipod and was very reminiscent of the BAR.)

I don't think there's just one most innovative hand-held item in WW2.

[Leuthas]

The M1918 Browning Automatic Rifle (BAR)

The weapon was trying to be a rifle, trying to be a machine gun. The Americans used it in the Squad support role, a role the Germans used the MG34 and MG42 in - weapons that obviously out-gunned the BAR.

Ah the BAR, quite a unique rifle. Though many see it as superior in operation and reliability to the German MG's, it's box magazine does limit it quite a bit.

I agree, the BAR was trying to have its cake and eat it too. I've read a report that the barrel could get so hot that the wooden fixtures could char!!

I've had the fortune of being able to fire an original BAR, and an MG 42 - they both heat up tremendously, but the MG42 is much worse, due to a high rate of fire, I believe.

[Jarlaxle]

The (BAR) was trying to be a rifle, trying to be a machine gun. The Americans used it in the Squad support role, a role the Germans used the MG34 and MG42 in - weapons that obviously out-gunned the BAR.

Don't tell Ad Topperwein the BAR is unwieldy! Not after what he did at the Army's demonstration...that being: shoot twenty steel discs out of the air and into Long Island Sound with it!

I agree, the BAR was trying to have its cake and eat it too. I've read a report that the barrel could get so hot that the wooden fixtures could char!!

And it would keep firing the whole time. BAR's would go through magazines one after the other, just put it in, shoot it in one long burst, jam in another, shoot it...my uncle saw a guy at Knob Creek do this with a BAR. He went through ten magazines--the barrel was glowing cherry red & the stock was smoking by the end of the eighth. He needed welder's gloves to touch any metal on the gun when he finished. It never missed a beat.

The FAL is essentially the BAR reciever turned upside down & adapted for belts instead of magazines. John Browning was a genius.

[Leuthas]

I didn't know the FAL et belts...?

[Jarlaxle]

Wait...I'm thinking of something else. MAG-58, maybe?

[Godstud]

The FN FAL used magazines of either 20 or 30 rounds. Yeah, probably the MAG 58.

[Tailz]

My point is, the BAR was not quite a rifle, not quite a machine gun, not quite an assault rifle. It was a jack of all trades, and a master at none.

[QatzelOk]

The cyanide capsule.

For when you just can't drag your entrails back to the camp.

[Jarlaxle]

My point is, the BAR was not quite a rifle, not quite a machine gun, not quite an assault rifle. It was a jack of all trades, and a master at none.

But that's just it: it DID do pretty much everything well. It was the first assault rifle. There's a reason it was in service essentially unchanged for 30+ years, and a MG heavily based on it is in use to this day, over ninety years after the brilliant John Browning designed it.

[Tailz]

But that's just it: it DID do pretty much everything well. It was the first assault rifle. There's a reason it was in service essentially unchanged for 30+ years, and a MG heavily based on it is in use to this day, over ninety years after the brilliant John Browning designed it.

Yet the BAR, even though it could do a number of roles, was out done in each of those roles by those purpose built weapons for those roles. Browning certainly was brilliant, and the BAR was a very good weapon, but as a jack of all trades, and a master of none, it failed when it had to stand up against the weapons it was trying to compete with. But this also came down to the skill and more importantly, the luck, of the operator.

[soron]

I've had the fortune of being able to fire an original BAR, and an MG 42 - they both heat up tremendously, but the MG42 is much worse, due to a high rate of fire, I believe.

Heating isn't all that much of a problem for the MG42 tho. In the airforce I had a MG3 (which is pretty much the same weapon) andf it comes with an asbestos glove and a spare barrel in a tin box. When one barrel is hot you just thrust open the quick release and slide out the barrel sideways-aft, push in the spare barrel and leave the hot barrel in the tin box for cooling while continue firing. Can be done in less than 10 seconds.
That should only happen on rare occassions tho. Even tho you can shoot full auto the gunner is supposed to fire only short bursts. In that role, the advantage of the belted ammo is that you need to reload less often, and you do still have the choice to squeeze out a longer burst - you do that with a 20 round magazine and you're out of ammo real quick.

However I think that the underlying tactical concept of those 2 weapons was different. Guns like the BAR and BREN were designed for squad support when most soldiers still carried carbine rifles. It was magazine fed so the gunner could receive ammo from his rifle bearing comrades and reload his own magazines.
The MG42 on the other evolved from the attempt at making a heavy machine gun portable by a team of 2 (gunner/loader), first of those was the famous light machine gun 08/15. In the end they were used for the same purpose - squad support weapon - and at that point the MG42 then was competing directly against the magazine fed light machine guns.

[Tailz]

However I think that the underlying tactical concept of those 2 weapons was different. Guns like the BAR and BREN were designed for squad support when most soldiers still carried carbine rifles. It was magazine fed so the gunner could receive ammo from his rifle bearing comrades and reload his own magazines.

According to some reading I was doing - in British sections/squads, extra clips for the BREN were carried by all squad members. When the enemy were engaged, fellow troopers would "drop off" BREN clips to the gunner as they moved up.

[Godstud]

The BREN could have 30-round detachable box magazines or 100-round detachable pan magazines, so it had a larger ammo capacity than the BAR. As a squad support weapon, the BREN LMG was superior to the BAR(I think) because of this higher ammo capacity, which was a short-coming of the BAR.

I also think that when it comes to hand-held devices, even though the radio wasn't actually one, it could qualify. Unit communication is extremely important.

[Tailz]

Portability of smaller hand radios... The Armerican Walkie-talkie I think was the radio inovation your pointing towards. Instead of the larger cumbersom backpack radios or field telephones.

[Tailz]

I was just thinking, one quite innovative item that could join the list is the Minox Camera.


The Minox Camera was used by a number of espionage groups during the second world war because it was easy to conceal, while the manufacturing plant in Latvia was threatened first by a soviet Invasion who retained production for Soviet use, then a Nazi invasion that continued production for issue to espionage and security services as well as gifts for Nazi officials, and then finally a Soviet invasion. While America public documents display that 25 Minox cameras were purchased by the US Office of Strategic Services (OSS) intelligence organisation in 1942.

[Godstud]

Germany was already producing extremely compact Zeiss cameras, in the 1930s. While a bit smaller than a Zeiss, I don't think the Minox was all that innovative.

[Tailz]

Germany was already producing extremely compact Zeiss cameras, in the 1930s. While a bit smaller than a Zeiss, I don't think the Minox was all that innovative.

Do you have a link to the 1930's or 1940's Zeiss Camera? Doing a quick search on Wiki didn't seem to bring up any cameras of the compact size of the Minox.

I thought the Minox Camera was innovative because it was extremely compact and very easy to hide because it used cut down strips of 35mm film, which made it a prime candidate for espionage work during the Second World War. I don't know of the Zeiss Camera's history in the second world war. Although I think Zeiss might have been involved in making optical range finding equipment for the german army.

[Godstud]

I'll have to take a pic of my fiancee's camera. It's a Zeiss that her father bought before the war(he was Austrian and fought on the Eastern front for the Germans). He took some good pics and she's still got it.

[Tailz]

I'll have to take a pic of my fiancee's camera. It's a Zeiss that her father bought before the war(he was Austrian and fought on the Eastern front for the Germans). He took some good pics and she's still got it.

I'd really like to see it if you could manage that Godstud. Or do you have the model name so I could google it? After all, google knows all.

I knew Zeiss made cameras, just didn't know they were that small. I thought Minox had cornered that market at that time.

But from my reading, Minox seemed to have been the preferred small camera for espionage because of its compact and easy to hide size.

[Godstud]

I was going off my memory. She got out the camera for me and I didn't find it nearly as small as I had remembered it. It's still relatively small, as it folds up.

Zeiss Ikon B2


This is the camera: http://www.chrislanephoto.com/blog/2010 ... christmas/

The camera you showed was definitely smaller.