Was Oswald Mosley a Traitor? - Politics Forum.org | PoFo

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The Second World War (1939-1945).
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#14592481
There is no evidence that he committed treason against Britain. He was interred during the War basically because the British government were not taking any chances, that's all. As Churchill famously said, "Collar the lot!" - including German Jews. Lol.
#14592482
Potemkin wrote:There is no evidence that he committed treason against Britain. He was interred during the War basically because the British government were not taking any chances, that's all. As Churchill famously said, "Collar the lot!" - including German Jews. Lol.


Well he may not have engaged in actual treason but did he not advocate policies which would be contrary to British interests?

For example he supported letting Hitler have a free hand in Eastern Europe and he didn't mind letting the Japanese have China.

The CPGB seem somewhat similar.
#14592483
Well he may not have engaged in actual treason but did he not advocate policies which would be contrary to British interests?

For example he supported letting Hitler have a free hand in Eastern Europe and he didn't mind letting the Japanese have China.

The CPGB seem somewhat similar.

That's not the same as treason, PI. And besides, who gets to decide what is in British interests and what isn't? Silencing dissenting voices is rather un-British, don't you think?
#14592486
Potemkin wrote:That's not the same as treason, PI. And besides, who gets to decide what is in British interests and what isn't? Silencing dissenting voices is rather un-British, don't you think?


Every country has certain geopolitical realities and imperatives. One imperative for the UK is not to allow any hegemon to emerge on the continent. This explains why England was so hostile to Nazi Germany and before that Napoleonic France, then later the USSR.

Both the British Union of Fascists and the CPGB advocated a sort of accomodation with continental hegemons, the USSR and Nazi Germany. Moreover both of these ideologies found their sources of inspiration in foreign countries.

It must thereore mean that the only patriotic position for an Englishman to take is liberalism and a desire to fight any continental force capable of challenging Anglo-Saxon hegemony in Europe.
#14592487
It must thereore mean that the only patriotic position for an Englishman to take is liberalism and a desire to fight any continental force capable of challenging Anglo-Saxon hegemony in Europe.

Both the BUF and the CPGB believed that their policies were in the best interests of the overwhelming majority of the British people, PI. Liberalism and maintaining the 'balance of power' in continental Europe was in the interests of the British ruling elite. You seem to be identifying the interests of the nation with the interests of its ruling elite, PI.
#14592490
Potemkin wrote:Both the BUF and the CPGB believed that their policies were in the best interests of the overwhelming majority of the British people, PI. Liberalism and maintaining the 'balance of power' in continental Europe was in the interests of the British ruling elite. You seem to be identifying the interests of the nation with the interests of its ruling elite, PI.


I was always under the impression that nations were subject to certain unchangeable geopolitical rules. Therefore certain ideologies had implications for different countries.

For example, today many liberals in Russia are considere unpatriotic because they advocate a pro-Western foreign policy.

There is always a problem when ideology leads to foreign policy changes that are not in the set geopolitical interests of the state.
#14592498
Defence Regulation 18B (1939) allowed the internment of Nazi sympathisers and thousands of Germans and Italians were also interned for the duration of the war. Mosley's wife was Diana Mitford and the Mitford sisters were famous Nazi supporters, who frequently travelled to Nazi Germany and fraternised with Adolf Hitler. There were legitimate suspicions that British fascists were actively collaborating with the Nazi leadership.

Image
Enraptured: Unity Mitford (left), is pictured with her sister Diana Mitford and members of the Nazi Party

Image
Late one night in pre-war Munich, a young English woman, dressed all in black and accompanied by six SS officers in full uniform, climbed the dark stairs to her apartment. Once inside she lit two large church candles either side of her bed, their glow revealing enormous swastika banners at its head and silver framed portraits of Adolf Hitler on side tables. After sliding off her boots and gauntlet-style gloves, she stepped out of her long black skirt and blindfolded herself with a Nazi armband before lying down, spread-eagled, on the bed. One man bound her hands and feet to its four corners while another, in what was obviously a familiar ritual, wound up the gramophone and dropped the needle on to a record of Horst-Wessel-Lied, the Nazi anthem. So passed another typical evening for Unity Mitford, according to a startling new biography of the aristocrat’s daughter who scandalised Thirties Britain by becoming a member of Adolf Hitler’s most intimate circle.
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article ... osley.html
#14594271
Political Interest wrote:Often we hear the inference that Mosley was somehow not loyal to the UK. To what extent can we argue that Oswald Mosley was a traitor to Britain?

No extent at all. Mosley was a Fascist and supported Hitler and Mussolini. Before the war his views were considered quite reasonable. He was considered a promising statesman with cosmopolitan views that encompassed all the popular parties. Many people saw him as developing into a potential Prime Minister. He picked the wrong horse and tried to follow in the footsteps that led Hitler and Mussolini to power.

Vilifying him as treasonous is nothing but political scapegoating.

Zam


-neither yet is everything sin before God, which ungodly persons allege to be treason- John Knox
#14594386
Fascism is hardly compatible with democracy. Mosley and the BUF never had much support (a small but significant supporter base but incapable of any real influence) and once he went down the fascist path he was no chance to be prime minister,.

Mosley admired and supported Hitler and Mussolini who were the enemy. While he may not have been a traitor he certainly had sympathies and motives that made a high risk of committing treason.(Given the means he certainly could not be trusted)
#14600708
There are worlds of difference between being a traitor to the British state and a traitor to the British nation, when we know the latter to be entirely subjective. No doubt the British Union of Fascists were "traitors" in a sense to the British government/state (though they never acted on any illegal moves/coup to my knowledge so only in intent rather than a legal sense, as Mosley was incarcerated as a precaution) who they themselves would consider traitors to or at least failures of the British nation.
#14600760
Well at the time traitor meant , traitor to the British monarch. When some one joined the army, served in Parliament etc they swore fealty to the British King, or the Duke of Slough as some prefer to call them, as Germans swore loyalty to Adolph Hitler. Our beloved royal family liked to give Nazi salutes, before they reinvented themselves as anti Nazi icons. Now arguably Edward VIII was the rightful King. Hence if Nazi had restored him to the throne with Mosley as his prime minister it would be Mosley who was the true patriot, the true loyalist.
Last edited by Rich on 18 Sep 2015 01:00, edited 1 time in total.
#14600768
I believe you mean to refer to King Edward VIII, but yes, that was a very real fear on the part of the Churchillians and the rest of the establishment although attempts to enact it of course never materialized due to the calling off of Seelöwe. It's one of the reasons he was sent off to the Bahamas.
#14600773
Far-Right Sage wrote:I believe you mean to refer to King Edward VIII,
Noted and corrected
but yes, that was a very real fear on the part of the Churchillians and the rest of the establishment although attempts to enact it of course never materialized due to the calling off of Seelöwe. It's one of the reasons he was sent off to the Bahamas.
Ironic because Churchill was one of Edward VIII's great defenders.

I'm even more concerned though about the first world war. We now accept that the crown must pass to the oldest child, regardless of gender. This of course means that Wilhelm was the true and rightful King of England during the First World war. George V being a treacherous usurper. And any British subjects who opposed Wilhelm were guilty of gross treason, punishable by death. The only question was whether we should refer to him as Wilhelm I or William V.

Of course Edward VII was also a treachuous usurper. His hand in the entente cordial being particularly treacherous, ensnaring us with the French war warmongering expansionists and their wicked plan to reoccupy Alsace Lorraine at any cost. He brought great evil upon the world

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