World War One (time we had a thread on this) - Page 2 - Politics Forum.org | PoFo

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The First World War (1914-1918).
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By Rokossovsky
#232777
WW1 went through an opening phase of mobility then got bogged down for 4 years in the trenches then towards the end it went mobile again as the Germans attacked before the advantage of the US could make its mark.

WW1 wasnt just fought on the western front, there was fighting (albiet minor) in other places such as in the middle east which didnt consist of trench warfare to a large extent.
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By Adrien
#232838
However, a certain Niell Ferguson (a nutty British conterfactual historian) firmly belives that had the British not involved themselves in the war, that the war would have ended in 1914 in a German victory.


I do think that this is going too far; after the tactical mistake of the Germans on their run to Paris, the French army really took things at hand again, and without the Brits it would have certainly been the same. Now again i'm not an expert and i could be wrong, but that's how i see it.. On the naval level now, it was the Brits who were the most active, no?
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By Yeddi
#232947
But Adrien, could the French have held out for as long? Without the British man power and machines could the french have held their positions long enough without collapsing or having another revolution (you french really do love these you know) Germany held in stalemate 2 nations for 5 years, don't you think they could have broken through only 1? I'm not saying it would have ended in 1914, adn it might not have been a 'total' german victory, but i don't thin it would have ended the same way.
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By Rokossovsky
#233125
The Germans were fighting the Russians as well and were succeeding. They managed to sap the French strength at Verdun, who asked the British to launch the Somme offensive to take some of the pressure off Verdun.
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By Adrien
#233128
My vision is of course biased, but i do think that we could have managed to hold them. The Germans were indeed efficient, but France was also totally in the war, economically and politically, and that's why i think that it could have faced the germans without shame.

I'm not saying that we would have won, because we couldn't have, but i'm confident that we could have secured the national territory and even push to taking back Alsace and Lorraine, ending the war in the trenchees, with some kind of compromise with the Germans. The country would have been on its knees, but not lost.

As far as the revolution is concerned, even we do like them a darn lot, i don't think that there would have been one; no, but i'm sure that a legal coup d'état would have taken place: you see Clémenceau -the kind of strong and determined guy you always call in times of trouble- was being given more and more power, and we were witnessing a big reinforcement of the executive power against the legislative body. In real life he was kicked out of office after the war but he could have stayed if he had prepared it.
By malachi151
#233141
Well, technically the Germans were "at fault", but they had a very legitimate beef under the circumstances. It was still very much an "imperial world" and the British and French just arrived on the scene earlier and created thier empires through war first.

The empires gave thouse countries power and since they had already taken so much territory Germany had two choices, either to accept its fate and be a small weak, insignificant country, or make war and push for the same types of powers that the British and French had already obtained. And in fact the Germans were helping places that had been colonized by the Brits rebel against them and at least they were claming they were going to help them gain independance.

The international climate was what caused the war, capitlaism is what caused the war, the countries were just acting in the only ways that were logical given the "rules of the game" at the time. Hence the desire by many, including the Communsits, to change the rules of the game.

Those Brits are just so smug :eh:
Last edited by malachi151 on 30 Oct 2003 16:32, edited 1 time in total.
User avatar
By Rokossovsky
#233188
The Desire for an Empire certainly helped Germany in its actions though it is arguable whether this made it alright for Germany to wage war. The Germans already had some (though not many) colonies of their own mainly in Africa where they spent most of their time subduing militant natives.

I'm not too sure that if Germany had stayed as it was it would be a small, weak and insignificant country. It has been Germanies desire for empire (in ww1 but mainly ww2) which has been its undoing.

Hey we are only smug because we dont have an Empire anymore! ;)
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By Der Freiheitsucher
#234037
GandalfTheGray is absolutely right.

The road to World War 1, otherwise known as The Great War has many complications in order to detect who is to bear the blame for it. Many historians focus in 5 specific problems which were the most important factors to spark the war.

The Rise of Germany
The first problem is the Rise of Germany, the unification of the German empire by Otto von Bismarck after the Franco Prussian war in 1870. The French went to war with the Prussians to impede them from uniting to form an empire, prior to this Germany was not an empire but separate states. Prussia won and the German unification caused the German economy to grow rapidly. Bismarck appointed Kaiser Wilhelm to be the ruler of Germany thinking he would be able to control it. Germany’s economy overtook that one of the British and French, only the Kaiser had the idea that this money should be used to create weapons in order to make Germany aggressive to other countries and henceforth receive the success it deserved. Germany used its wealth to produce weapons and it became a very strong country in army, the other countries in Europe were worried to see this empire get so big and strong. This factor can clearly be blamed on Kaiser Wilhelm, seeing his policy was not only military, but it had obvious violent intentions. Chronologically this is the first event that marked the beginning of the road to the Great War.

The Arms Race
Subsequently to Germany’s build up, there was a vast arms race between the countries, not to mention the navy and army build up. To match up, Britain started to construct new ships which were also matched by the German navy. Henceforth the French increased their military and the Russians improved their railroads to get to the enemy’s front quicker. This is argued to be Germany’s fault, saying that had the Kaiser not increased his military power, the other countries would have not responded in such a drastic way. It is understandable to see the surrounding countries respond with military action to the Kaiser’s military hunger, and its vast arms build up.

The Balkans
The third factor, which is sought to be my many historians the true source of conflict to begin a World War, is found in the problems with Germany’s ally, the Austrian-Hungarian Empire, which was having problems with the Balkans. The Balkans were a group of countries including Serbia, Bulgaria, Rumania and Montenegro. They had lived under Turkish rule but the Turkish power was no dropping. In 1908 Austria seized Bosnia and Herzegovina, which were Balkan states and sparked the first Balkan crisis. Russia, allied with Serbia protested against this act, but Germany who was an ally of Austria stepped in and aggressively stated that they would back Austria’s actions. The Russians felt impotent against this. So they decided to strongly arm themselves so they would never have to back down again. By 1913 Austria was looking for any justification to declare war on Serbia. Several local wars had happened in which Serbia was the victor; being a close ally to Russia it represented a big threat for Austria. Germany was backing Austria and Russia was backing Serbia, which represented a great danger for war. This problem could be blamed on Austria, seeing that if it was not for their struggle for power, probably the Balkan fight would have never started.

The Colonies
The expansion of the German empire, as well as the British and French plays an important roll in the tension that led to the Great War. These countries believed that having overseas colonies was important for the empire to grow. One of the countries that the Powers had interest in was Morocco, in Africa. The French were going to seize Morocco but the Kaiser interrupted and claimed that Morocco should be free and independent, an event that made the French furious for being an obstacle in their colonization. This was retaliated in a conference some weeks afterwards, where the French and British humiliated the Kaiser and showed him as an ignorant fool. This made the Wilhelm bitter and determined to take revenge. A second crisis took place in 1911. The French finally attempted to seize Morocco and promised to pay Germany if this colonization affected their economy in any way. Nevertheless, Wilhelm sent the battleship Panther, and the Western countries felt threatened that Germany was building a naval base in the Mediterranean. This caused Britain and France to start patrolling the sea because they were suspicious about the Kaiser, but they still took Morocco.

The Triple Entente and the Central Powers
During the Morocco crisis, the last step towards war took place. As the Kaiser had seen in the Algeciras conference in 1906, Britain and France were acting close together. This is because they had signed the Triple Entente, an agreement in defense to German in which Britain, France and Russia took place. These countries were now known as the Entente Powers. Germany, being concerned by encirclement of the Entente Powers, signed an allegiance with Italy and Japan, and were known as the Central Powers. The enemies to go to war were now known, and the only thing needed to start the war was a minor spark.

finally, we have what is known as the spark that lit the bonfire, the assassination of Archduke Franz Ferdinand. Sarajevo was the capital of Bosnia, one of the Balkan states which were the epicenter of so much tension between the Entente and the Central Powers. On a bright Sunday afternoon, 28th of June in 1941, the Austrian archduke Francis Ferdinand was attending a parade in Sarajevo. A group of Serbian nationalists, lead by Gavrilo Princip attempted to kill the archduke by tossing a bomb to the car that he was riding, but due to some complications, the bomb did not kill the Archduke but merely hurt him. They decided to go to the hospital to take Ferdinand. The Serbs thought their cause was lost, but seeing that the royal car made a turn right in front where Princip was lamenting, he fired two close range shots to the Archduke and his wife, killing both of them. Princip knew he would be seized by the police, so he took some venom to commit suicide after he had murdered the archduke. Unfortunately for him, the venom was expired and did no harm. The assassination was the perfect excuse Austria had been waiting, and sent an ultimatum to Serbia. Serbia’s ally stood up and declared war on Austria. Austria’s ally, Germany, declared war on Russia, and honoring the alliance, Britain and France declared war on Germany, and subsequently Italy and Japan declared war on Russia, Britain and France. World War 1 had begun. Two years after, Princip claimed that if he knew what he was going to spark he would have never done it.

Furthermore, we have AJP Taylor's perspective on the first world war. There is actual evidence claiming that the Kaiser had told his supreme officers to prepare for a war before the assassination of Ferdinand. This evidently suggests that Wilhelm was preparing for a war, obviously making him most blameful.

I actually believe the source of conflict for the 1st World War goes back to the 1848 revolutions in Europe and the lack of contentment within the European peoples. The subject of the road to Wolrd War One is extremely broad and likewise interesting, sadly im too tired of typing and I believe the question was already answered.
User avatar
By Falleen Prince Xizor
#234111
Archduke Franz Ferdinand found alive!!!
First World War a MISTAKE!!! :knife:
User avatar
By MB.
#234141
Bukharov wrote:This factor can clearly be blamed on Kaiser Wilhelm, seeing his policy was not only military, but it had obvious violent intentions. Chronologically this is the first event that marked the beginning of the road to the Great War.


Do you really believe that the Kiaser was just going about saber rattelling? Why would he do that? What would he have to gain?
User avatar
By Der Freiheitsucher
#234143
Mr Bill wrote:
Bukharov wrote:This factor can clearly be blamed on Kaiser Wilhelm, seeing his policy was not only military, but it had obvious violent intentions. Chronologically this is the first event that marked the beginning of the road to the Great War.


Do you really believe that the Kiaser was just going about saber rattelling? Why would he do that? What would he have to gain?


Yes. Bismarck thought that he would be able to control the Wilhelm dynasty, but he as many was wrong, because the Kaiser was not only mentally ill, but he had a frantic wish to prove a Germanic military advantage over the other countries in Europe.
By Din
#234178
WW1 wasnt just fought on the western front, there was fighting (albiet minor) in other places such as in the middle east which didnt consist of trench warfare to a large extent


yes there was fighting in africa as well, as in the pacific, turkey, attempts to invade Iraq, as well as the higly mobile backwards forwards motion on the eatsern front
By Thin Spirits
#234185
Mr Bill wrote:I agree with your perception on Monash, as an early tank tactician he was quite exceptional.


Now the irony. Monash was of Australian-german origin I believe, and a few of his relatives were placed in internment camps during WWI.

I agree with the position that the First World War was a combination of several factors, predominated by reckless foreign policy designed for 'national glory' or to get the upper hand over rivals as opposed for security.
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By MB.
#234298
Bukharov wrote:Yes. Bismarck thought that he would be able to control the Wilhelm dynasty, but he as many was wrong, because the Kaiser was not only mentally ill, but he had a frantic wish to prove a Germanic military advantage over the other countries in Europe.


But with what objective?

Occupy France and absorb it into the greater German Riech?

What?
User avatar
By Der Freiheitsucher
#234301
Mr Bill wrote:
Bukharov wrote:Yes. Bismarck thought that he would be able to control the Wilhelm dynasty, but he as many was wrong, because the Kaiser was not only mentally ill, but he had a frantic wish to prove a Germanic military advantage over the other countries in Europe.


But with what objective?

Occupy France and absorb it into the greater German Riech?

What?


The Kaiser did not have a planned objective such as the annexation of France, or at least he did not speak about it, I have never encountered hisotric evidence to suggest otherwise. The Kaiser's objective was militar and political superiority for his Reich.
User avatar
By MB.
#234387
So how does invading your nieghboring countires, and NOT annexing them, provide your military superioitry? Infact, how does invading ANYONE provide military superiority?
User avatar
By Der Freiheitsucher
#234394
He didnt annex them because he lost the war.

And it doesn't provide you military superiority, it PROVES it.
By Thin Spirits
#234502
Mr Bill wrote:So how does invading your nieghboring countires, and NOT annexing them, provide your military superioitry? Infact, how does invading ANYONE provide military superiority?


The goal was to embarrass the French and prove German superiority.

I would think that if you successfully invaded and conquered a country you would prove your military superiority over it. They would have made France pay dearly for its loss in Imperial land, the objective was never to annex France.
By malachi151
#234513
Let's face it, the Germans had every right to fight WWI.

Let's also face it that Germany was better than France and Britain.

The only thing is that the French and British got their hands on all the goods first, but why should that mean anything eh?

The US should have stayed out of WWI and let the Germans take of Europe. Ahh, if only the Germans had won WWI! Think of how much better off the world would have been, and let's be real, the Germans had a better culture and they earned theirs the hard way, not be stealing it and selling opium like the British and French; oh those smug bastards :p
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By Der Freiheitsucher
#234532
There was some material on the first page which I had not read, anyhow, regarding the beginning of the War, the German troops were advancing swiftly, and they got as close to Paris that some of the French soldiers got to the war front by taxis. The German troops had advanced so quickly that the food and supplies could not keep up with their rhythm. By the time they got to the river Marne, the German troops were exhausted and restless, not to mention weak because of the lack of food. The Russians mobilized their troops much more quickly than what the Germans expected, and the German Supreme Commander pulled out 100,000 men from the battalion to help the eastern front. This was enough, with the French resistance in company of the Belgians, to hold the Germans behind in River Marne, and push them back to River Aisne. By September, both fronts had reached stalemate and built a trench line. The Schlieffen plan failed in Marne, and Germany had to fight a war in two fronts.

The Supreme Commander of the German troops was replaced , and the new Commander decided that instead of marching towards Paris they would go around the enemy, known as an outflanking tactic. Both the Entente and Central troops started to go west by railroad, the Germans trying to break in and the French trying to block them. They reached the city of Ypres in October 12 of 1914. Here, they British troops were receiving good food supplies through the English channels, but the German army was pounding the Entente troops vastly. The French attempted to hit Germany through Champagne but failed, once again, the war had reached a stalemate. The trench lines went from the Sea to the Alps, and it officially received the name of “The Western Front”, which played a very important roll in the war.

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