Greek and Bulgarian Exceptionalism - Page 3 - Politics Forum.org | PoFo

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#15157423
think You could do better instead repeating yourself, now just with annex - its not your fault that someone called them bulgarians, thats noemon propaganda assimilation that even subdued many to accept that they are bulgarians i.e. to be toponym in toponym, but that has nothing to do with the fact that many also identified and identify themselves as Macedonians from Macedonia what is fact tho now in Bulgaria those half million macedonians that back then unwilling migrated plus with those that were expelled, now they as former aegean macedonians are two million, and if they woke up as macedonians they could easily change all perspectives and shape of Bulgaria, afraid from any such possibility now Blgaria imposed campaign of strict negation of the macedonian culture and macedonian language as separate from the bulgarian, simply they use your greek excuses but on way more greater level through blackmailing macedonians either except that you are bulgarians or there will be no eU membership ...

    ... officially now the last government here even started some negotiation like historical compromises that should be maid, but bulgarians are not just after history but identity, at least for greek governments only problem was how they could designate us as slav macedonians so they could say in Greece they never had nothing thus exist only greek macedonians, tho somehow stupid excuse so they can runaway from its colonial past in same time claiming sole authority on the ancient macedonian history even do the same has nothing common with the modern greek state and modern greek nation, for greeks it was more like who will hold the brand Macedonia and like that making more money from tourism, maybe exceptional pride too coz without the macedonian charter there are only city states and bunch philosophers but no imperial glory for extra national and touristic exceptionalism, while in case of bulgarians their propaganda rests upon way greater fears of own identity crisis if they accept that there are macedonians who speak macedonian i.e. finally getting grip whether they are slavs or turkomongols, and also that could easily open all the doors in future how and what were doing bulgarians earlier so they can assimilate the macedonian population in the past ...

still no matter any greek or bulgarian fears or needs, We as Macedonians have every right of interpretation on our history and striving for own identity, even if we were Eskimos that recently fell here in Macedonia we could call ourselves as we please! You cant grasp the fact that is word of forcible neighboring denial to someones basic human right of self'determination, yes there could be debates in history, yes there could be touristic marketing, but political bashing on level of identity negation on top through european means that think is too much from modern europe, who after all should be in shame coz it instigated the macedonian exodus in the past, but even more now is acting blind in front of its continual brainwashing episodes, its case that dont exist nowhere in the world like this someone to negate cultural identity to other, yes there are many nations that have different historical or cultural viewpoints but only Macedonians are politically negated as existence, and this is example that should be used as stick upon european democracy when eU run to condemn others, first they should clean their own yard from xenophobia and then after bashing others for human rights ...
#15157425
You are negating the Bulgarian people their own name because you do not even have your own victims and are assuming the identity of foreign nationals for the sole purpose of being a victim for the Greek, Bulgarian and Muslim population exchanges that took place 100 years ago.

Greece has fought wars against Turkey, Bulgaria(3 times), Germany, and Yugoslavia to settle the matter of Macedonia. As far as the world is concerned the matter has been settled by war and by population exchanges between these countries several decades ago.

I am not telling you how to call yourself, I am informing you of what the Bulgarian population actually called itself and was recognised as such by every single country, organisation and newspaper that dealt with the matter. It is not my fault that you claim to represent a population that is at the same time your "archenemy" and which did not opt to be represented by yourself.
#15157427
3. You are spinning the facts noemon, there were those who lived in Macedonia and were brainwashed as bulgarinas or greeks or serbians, but the majority stayed Macedonians! You are using those assimilated as excuse so even nowadays we that see ourselves as Macedonians to be negated like that, the problem here is negation not fact or interpretations!

2. yes Greece was in war with its neighbors but not on own turf but in foreign i.e. Macedonia, which never before 1913 was greek territory ... for once accept that Greece colonized half Macedonia and engaged assimilation and exodus of slavs in Macedonia who as always were calling themselves Macedonians, while as always greeks despised them, but somehow now through touristic agitprop suddenly after 1990 it become proud thing for a greek to consider himself in same time macedonian , tho as stated many times earlier I'll say again even that is their right, but why negating my right i.e. You are not telling me I am not macedonian but saying you are bulgarian, what a hypocrisy!

1. how can I object someone to see himself how they wish when I am constantly pointing that its basic human right! its up to anyone wish and will to see and feel as he likes, thus I am not negating any roght to bulgarians nor greeks nor anyone, instead my right is negated and on top of that You are accusing me with spinn that I am assimilator, how so,
#15157428
It's not a basic human right of yours to claim foreign people as your own, nor is it a "sin" in any way to show evidence of what these people called themselves and were called by others. Bulgaria assimilated its Bulgarian population from Macedonia(Greece) just like Greece assimilated the Greek population from Turkey and Turkey the Muslim population from Greece.
"North Macedonia" was not present either in the field, or the table, or via any other organisation to lay a claim on any person because FYR Macedonia itself is a result of the purging of local Bulgarian Communists by Serbian Communists in 1944 for the purpose of invading the already existing Macedonia in Greece during the Greek Civil war in 1944.

Macedonia has been Greek territory for as long as it has been called Macedonia, Greece re-took it from the Ottomans and from Bulgaria(twice) and Germany, and pushed off Yugoslavia which was the last attempt of a foreign country to lay a claim in Macedonia.

The only reason one would dispute Greek sovereignty in Macedonia would be for war.
That's not very nice.
#15157430
wow, noemon greeks were minority in Ottoman Macedonia and after 1913 little by little they became majority, how, simply through assimilation expulsion and executions of macedonians, tho statistic reshaped also by the influx of 1.5m "interchanged" greek colonizers from asia minor ...

    I am not claiming bulgarians are macedonians, I just pointed how propaganda war was instigated that many indeed accepted to be asimilated and see themselves as bulgarians, but defacto most of them were not because their different south'slavic dialects, as noted even by greek government representative in 1925 in league of nations (pointed in the abecedar wiki link before [1]) who is claiming that they are not bulgarians!

now how all this became assimilation hype, think I've posted explanation how macedonians became bulgarians in middle century (the quoted text in the next footnote [1]) what later was used as excuse for forcible assimilation by bulgarians after the freemasonic concept of nation became ethnic right, so bulgarians eager to grab more land they used this notion so they would be in peace with themselves while assimilating and later torturing murdering macedonians on behalf of the great-bulgaria-cause! what is important here is to differe what is Ethnos, before romanticism that was Slav and Slavic Language, and slavs differ between themselves by toponyms, so macedonian slavs couldnt be bulgarian or serbian, even their dialects were different, thus its ridiculous to spinn history in own nationalistic romantic way nowadays as someone natural right to assimilate or negate others! what bulgarians use as byzantine excuse is like me to say that because Tsar Dushan stated that he is ruler of Macedonia and Serbia in his codex [1][1] even more because he did that in Skopye now all the serbs are macedonians, on top of that to block serbs to enter eU if they dont accept such fallacy, what a stupidity!!! but hey bulgarians can claim that serbians too are bulgarians because after the fall of samoels macedonian empire the byzantines in the new thema bulgaria included serbia too [1][1]
#15157437
Odiseizam wrote:
    I am not claiming bulgarians are FYR-Macedonians, I just pointed how propaganda war was instigated that many indeed accepted to be asimilated and see themselves as bulgarians,


You are claiming that the Bulgarian population as described by the Carnegie report, by the League of Nations and by all the western newspapers were not actually "Bulgarians" but that they shared your own nationalist conception of the world, when that is simply not true. 1) Because these people truly were Bulgarian and proved it by going back and forth in 4 decades 2) because these people truly did not share the nonsense that you believe 3) because even your own nationalist conception of the world did not come into existence until 1944 when Tito replaced the Bulgarian committees in the newly established People's Republic with Serbian ones and created this entire story that you currently believe. An average Bulgarian person that was exchanged with Greece in the 1900's would not understand your claims about Tsar Samuil, Tatarchev, Delchev, and so many others.

but defacto most of them were not because their different south'slavic dialects, as noted even by greek government representative in 1925 in league of nations (pointed in the abecedar wiki link before [1]) who is claiming that they are not bulgarians!


He did not claim that they are FYR Macedonians either.

The reason the Greeks claimed that neither Bulgaria nor Serbia should have spiritual control over the Slavic population in Macedonia(Greece) was because they were both threatening Greece as your own source tells you:

Image

Greece decided to call them 'Slavicised Greeks' instead of Bulgarians for a brief period of time. That does not mean that they were not Bulgarians. The "Abecedar" was never used anyway. It was a Potemkin village for the League of Nations. Only another Potemkin village would rely on the literal existence of a Potemkin village. ;)

Odiseizam wrote:tho statistic reshaped also by the influx of 1.5m "interchanged" greek colonizers from asia minor ...


Greek refugees exchanged for the Muslims that left Greek Macedonia for Turkey and the Bulgarians that left for Bulgaria.

You claim that the 150k Bulgarians that were exchanged with Bulgaria are the biggest victims of history and that they should not be called Bulgarians because you claim "Bulgaria brainwashed them in foreign territory to be Bulgarian" while the 1.5 million Greek refugees that were also exchanged in the same process were somehow "colonizers".


:roll:
#15157443
no noemon, I am claiming that the propaganda war that existed since romanticism on behalf of forming bulgarian nation stil exists, and not in sporadic but direct form of negation of my right and the right of my ancestors to call themselves macedonians!

    I refuted your arguments as probulgarian excuses that obviously were arranged like that so they would suit particular european vibe for closing of the macedonian question with easy sway of the actual situation i.e. separate slavic population living in Macedonia than the bulgarian living in Bulgaria! after the bucharest treaty macedonians became everything but macedonians, you are thinking like nationalist not humanist!

you can continue finding picked historical excuses so You will support your theory that macedonians are bulgarians, but simply that is wrong modern greek exceptionalism that negate if not else my current right on self'determination, on top calling me fyromian yugoslavian and all kind of different pejorative etiquettes so You could excuse the past century greek dividing and atrocities upon macedonians in Macedonia! I can offer You tons of documents and evidence that this was case and that those atrocities were instigated upon macedonians who pointed that it was macedonian exodus not bulgarian or serbian, even more if I provide the serbian assimilation methods in their share of dived Macedonia after the balkan wars, even compare them with bulgarian and greek one which were more freightening, but stil even then You will negate my right of selfdetermination and calling me names so You would proove Your greek exceptionalism and false clean consciousness that Macedonia was your right so you havent grab and divide with the rest of the balkan european vassals as reward for their servitude in the agenda for dismantling of the Ottoman Empire, no You have liberate it from them but in same time started en'masse assimilation and cleaning of slav macedonians, probably it would be easier to call me second class balkan slav that will have right to call himself macedonian just in the grave, but many didnt allowed that not even there when after 1913 even cleaned all the cemetaries where slavic language was used on the tumbs, for destroying of slavic frescoes icons and books even not to start numbering how this was done, noemon simply the past century assimilation of macedonians is still live and well but europe is silent while acting champion of democracy and human rights, no this is european shame and nothing else, my balkan neighbours are also victims of that silence and still behaving as exptional nationalist that can change the history and the facts so there will be no existance of macedonians!
#15157446
Odiseizam wrote:I refuted your arguments as probulgarian excuses that obviously were arranged like that so they would suit particular european vibe for closing of the macedonian question


You have not refuted something and especially this:

The Carnegie Report which was founded to record all the atrocities of the Balkan Wars, describes all the slavic villages in Macedonia as "Bulgarian" in 1913.

This was a mixed committee, and its members were composed, by Austrian, German, British, French, American and Russian experts.

The Dillingham Immigration Commission of the USA(1907-1910), that records "Macedonians" among the immigrants, clarifies:

Image

See page 92 in the Harvard Library. And then click on page 27 to read the entry under 'Bulgarian'.

IMRO got divided as to whether the Bulgarians should go for Unification or Independence. It is worth noting that even the Independence movement of IMRO, clarified that the Governor shall be ethnic-Bulgarian, and the official language of the independent "Macedonian country" shall be Bulgarian.

The Leaders & Founders explained the reasons behind this:

Hristo Tatarchev wrote:
We talked a long time about the goal of this organization and at last we fixed it on autonomy of Macedonia with the priority of the Bulgarian element. We couldn't accept the position for "direct joining to Bulgaria" because we saw that it would meet big difficulties by reason of confrontation of the Great powers and the aspirations of the neighbouring small countries and Turkey. It passed through our thoughts that one autonomous Macedonia could easier unite with Bulgaria subsequently and if the worst comes to the worst, that it could play a role as a unificating link of a federation of Balkan people. The region of Adrianople, as far as I remember, didn't take part in our program, and I think the idea to add it to the autonomous Macedonia came later.


Ivan HadziNicholov wrote:
The revolutionary organization should be established within Macedonia and should act there, so that the Greeks and Serbs couldn't label it as a tool of the Bulgarian government.
Its founders should be locals and living in Macedonia.
The political motto of the organization should be the autonomy of Macedonia.
The organization should be secret and independent, without any links with the governments of the liberated neighborly states, and
From the Macedonian emigration in Bulgaria and the Bulgarian society, only moral and material help for the struggle of the Macedonian revolutionaries should be required.


You mentioned Sandansky's terrorism earlier.

In the New York Times April 12, 1902 news from the New York Times Archive we read:

Image

Odiseizam wrote:You will support your theory that macedonians are bulgarians, but simply that is wrong modern greek exceptionalism


The truth is not "greek exceptionalism" mate, the irony is that you are using Bulgarian people to assume the position of a victim for the purposes of exceptional nationalism that is at the same time anti-Bulgarian. You are using people that officially suffered for Bulgaria for an anti-Bulgarian cause because you feel that the only thing you have to offer is your victim status about a conspiracy theory that the world has conspired to hide your special existence as a people. That all the western & eastern historians have been in on it to remove the existence of the "true descendants of Alexander" from the record of history and that if only the world confessed the reality of this story then Jesus would reveal himself again.

You need to start thinking beyond alternative facts and simply move on.

It is no coincidence that North Macedonia is the capital of fake-news.

wired wrote:In the final weeks of the US presidential election, Veles attained a weird infamy in the most powerful nation on earth; stories in The Guardian and on BuzzFeed revealed that the North Macedonian town of 55,000 was the registered home of at least 100 pro-Trump websites, many of them filled with sensationalist, utterly fake news. (The imminent criminal indictment of Hillary Clinton was a popular theme; another was the pope’s approval of Trump.) The sites’ ample traffic was rewarded handsomely by automated advertising engines, like Google’s AdSense. An article in The New Yorker described how President Barack Obama himself spent a day in the final week of the campaign talking “almost obsessively” about Veles and its “digital gold rush.”

Within Veles itself, the young entrepreneurs behind these websites became subjects of tantalizing intrigue. Between August and November, Boris earned nearly $16,000 off his two pro-Trump websites. The average monthly salary in North Macedonia is $371.
#15157465
are You joking me, ah noemon, I've clearly pointed that there were macedonians that expressed themselves as such even before 1913, the carnegie commission was in time of the partition of Macedonia, and Greece was anglosaxon stooge, it was financed by london for its revolution, it was indebted till bone, and it was their western vassal, normally that they would seek to clear the path of any eventual macedonian question in future, but even that was little so there was imposed ruthless campaign of assimilation and grecization, this was already provided as fact [1][1] but hey even Britanica nowadays acknowledged this [1]

http://www.makedonija.info/aegean.html

next, so this shameful grabbing of Macedonia to be sold as normal, macedonias were designated as bulgarians, before that i/e/ before 1913 I offered many examples where macedonians indeed seen themselves separate from bulgarians, tho You are using the imro period where obviously there was 1. bulgarian breach in the organization, but also 2. many macedonians were already brainwashed due to the prior assimilation of macedonians by the bulgarian exarchate through their priests and schools, what happened in Ottoman Empire, I provided the fact when and how this happened after the abolition of the Ohrid Archiepiscopy [1][1] still You are thinking I am disputing someones right to call himself bulgarian, how!? cant get why You think the bulgarian nation which wasnt born in Macedonia but Bulgaria has something to do with Macedonia? how? I provided the argument about the specif distinction through the dialects and still You insinuate its not macedonian but bulgarian language! how? I offered the abecedar fact [1] Your excuse was greeks were afraid of bulgarian expansion, how when with 1919 versailles treaty the balkan wars and ww-1 were terminated and there was room for any fear by Greece!? ALL THIS IS OLD ANTIMACEDONIAN PROPAGANDA THAT STILL CONTINUE TO PUSH FOR FINAL MACEDONIAN EXODUS. and europe is quiet thus accepting and acknowledging it ...

http://agema-makedonin.blogspot.com/

after follows excerpt from The Balkans since 1453 ~ by Leften Stavros Stavrianos ~ 1958 New York

Image
#15157469
Odiseizam wrote:are You joking me, ah noemon, I've clearly pointed that there were macedonians that expressed themselves as such even before 1913


The only person you mentioned is Pulevski:

same wiki you linked wrote:In his last work: “Jazitshnica, soderzsayushtaja starobolgarski ezik, uredena em izpravlena da se uchat bolgarski i makedonski sinove i kerki"; ('Grammar, containing Old Bulgarian language, arranged and corrected to be taught to Bulgarian and Macedonian sons and daughters'), he considered the Macedonian dialects to be old Bulgarian and the differences between the two purely geographical.[17]


And besides that, you are claiming that the Bulgarian people that were exchanged with Bulgaria and you have not shown how these people were wrongly labelled Bulgarians by all international organisations like the League of Nations, the Carnegie report, the New York Times & etcetera.
#15157474
not just Pulevski but many macedonians in the past declared themselves as macedonians! I offered link for that, here is it again [1] the problem is that You cant understand that before romanticism there was no nation emblem like macedonian or bulgarian but just slavs who were from this or that region, and as bulgarians claim that prior to that macedonian didnt mean any ethnic term also the same could be said for the term bulgarian [1] but again they will call upon the forged byzantine macedonians and bulgarians!

    Please provide info where the "exchanged" aegean macedonians considered themselves bulgarians, that was just deal between Greece and Bulgaria which btw is not elaborated on wiki [2] as is the greko-turkish one [2] they were simply designated as bulgarians and expelled, yeah with a deal, and as I can grasp using this as crucial evidence You imply that we as macedonians are bulgarians, but also through carnegie com. findings too, as if that commission wasnt sent in the eve of the partition of Macedonia by neighbors who were backed by the same elites who gathered the commission, probably You are not aware that King Constantine I of Greece pushed this spinn [2] the prime cause of the commission was not counting macedonians but blaming Bulgaria, if the commission was instigated by Greece normally that they would not acknowledge existence of macedonians, probably You missed the interview I've offered of Nikola Karev for the greek newspaper in 1903 [3] simply for Greece even then megali-idea existed and 15 years later when finally they chopped half of Macedonia who would even think that they would recognize macedonias!?

obviously I need to repeat myself > just after the constitution of the bulgarian exarchat i.e. after the abolition of Ohrid Archiepiscopy macedonians having no means to defend from the greek church assimilation accepted bulgarian priests and schools this is 19 century [2] running away from the greek assimilation they run on to bulgarian one, that as new state was supported by the big powers as nation in birth, thus macedonians altho never saw themselves as bulgarians suddenly were pushed to become one, IF they as macedonians were bulgarians they would at least mention in one traditional song somehow Bulgaria, instead everywhere is word for Macedonia and Macedonians, on top of that the customs are not the same, also the melodies are different, tho after 1913 bulgarians started to present macedonian dances as theirs, ethnographic science has proven that even the motifs as design and color are not the same, altho in every of the three regions of Macedonia there were different interpretations still there was distinct macedonian pattern, also the macedonian fresco and icon painters used macedonian sun as distinctive signature usually with 4 or 8 rays but still there is not available study on this behalf, yet Mostholy Theotokos was represented like that only in Macedonia by the slav zoographs since middle ages ... but again I've offered the crucial fact that the dialects were very different from the bulgarian and that alone is enough evidence that we are different than them, so have all the right to say we are not bulgarians and we never were ... btw prior to nations and nationalism the language was Old Slavonic not bulgarian or macedonian, on top macedonian and bulgarian couldnt understand each other easily!
#15157480
Odiseizam wrote:not just Pulevski but many macedonians in the past declared themselves as macedonians! I offered link for that, here is it again [1]


Many people declared themselves Macedonians throughout the centuries but it does not mean that these people shared the FYR Macedonian nationalist conception of the world just like the Bulgarians of WW1 you 're just trying to wear other people for coats. The Catholic claim does not link to a particular book and sounds like fake news as do most of the claims in these alt-history websites.

Odiseizam wrote:the problem is that You cant understand that before romanticism there was no nation emblem like macedonian or bulgarian but just slavs who were from this or that region,


This means that the things that you believe, they didn't, and as such they cannot be of shared national consciousness.

Please provide info where the "exchanged" aegean macedonians considered themselves bulgarians, that was just deal between Greece and Bulgaria which btw is not elaborated on wiki [2] as is the greko-turkish one [2] they were simply designated as bulgarians and expelled, yeah with a deal, and as I can grasp using this as crucial evidence You imply that we as macedonians are bulgarians, but also through carnegie com. findings too, as if that commission wasnt sent in the eve of the partition of Macedonia by neighbors who were backed by the same elites who gathered the commission, probably You are not aware that King Otto pushed this spinn [2] the prime cause of the commission was not counting macedonians but blaming Bulgaria, if the commission was instigated by Greece normally that they would not acknowledge existence of macedonians,


The Carnegie report for the atrocities of the Balkan wars was not instigated by Greece but by the League of Nations.

Slavic people in Macedonia were historically Bulgarian in language and in church and they were recognised as such by the League of Nations, you accuse Greeks of being responsible for calling them 'Bulgarians' but at the same time mention that the Greeks tried to argue against calling them all Bulgarians. Even the conspiracy is totally contradictory.

The leaders of the IMARO organisation that you claim established the first national movement were quite clear about their objectives:

Hristo Tatarchev wrote:We talked a long time about the goal of this organization and at last we fixed it on autonomy of Macedonia with the priority of the Bulgarian element. We couldn't accept the position for "direct joining to Bulgaria" because we saw that it would meet big difficulties by reason of confrontation of the Great powers and the aspirations of the neighbouring small countries and Turkey. It passed through our thoughts that one autonomous Macedonia could easier unite with Bulgaria subsequently and if the worst comes to the worst, that it could play a role as a unificating link of a federation of Balkan people. The region of Adrianople, as far as I remember, didn't take part in our program, and I think the idea to add it to the autonomous Macedonia came later.



Ivan HadziNicholov wrote:The revolutionary organization should be established within Macedonia and should act there, so that the Greeks and Serbs couldn't label it as a tool of the Bulgarian government.
Its founders should be locals and living in Macedonia.
The political motto of the organization should be the autonomy of Macedonia.
The organization should be secret and independent, without any links with the governments of the liberated neighborly states, and
From the Macedonian emigration in Bulgaria and the Bulgarian society, only moral and material help for the struggle of the Macedonian revolutionaries should be required.
#15157492
I provided greek source that the commission was evoked by King Constantine I of Greece, still You are willing to oversee that!

the vatican info hm try translate it and ask from vatican archive official stance, its news article from the prime newspaper here! ... but wait there are tons of similar evidence, but still You are following the greek nationalistic exceptionalism calling me again names, how stupid would be me calling you ex-yunanistan greek as you are calling me ex-yugoslavian macedonian, greeks became nation earlier we later, what gives You the right to think that You are special and Me fake!? whats the point Me providing arguments when You are seeing me as some kind of freak! Please understand Macedonians are reality, if You want to be one You are welcome, if You like to be greek macedonian I dont mind, but being in same time greek and macedonian simply is not possible, in terms of modern nationality this is absurd! but hey balkan is peninsula of nationalistic paradoxes in case of the macedonian question! think even these next arguments will not change Your mind, try recycle that greek exceptionalism at least little in more humane way!

    The German Slavist Wolf Oschlies writes that in the 15th century the Germans did not know anything about Bosnia or BULGARIA, but were well informed about Macedonia, what kind of country it was and where it was situated.
    ...
    On April 6, 1690, Leopold I sent an appeal to the Balkan peoples, the Macedonians among them, to rise up again against the Ottomans and to assist the Austrians armies. Twenty days later, the Habsburg emperor issued the "Letter of Protection to the Macedonian People", wherein he referred to the statements of Marko Kranda from Kozhani and Dimitri Georgi Popovich from Thessaloniki, both Macedonians, about "how much the Macedonian people, out of respect for Our most just deed, with eagerness and zeal towards Our service and with serious intent, wish to free themselves from the heavy Turkish yoke and place themselves under Our protection, if Our mercy be extended to it... For that reason," stressed the emperor, "We mercifully accept and receive under Our imperial and royal mercy, in any manner and kind, the above-mentioned Macedonian people, kindly recommending to all Our military commanders not to attack the Macedonian people or cause any difficulties to them, but, in accordance with the forces available, to protect, defend and help them always and under any circumstances.
    ...
    https://republic-of-macedonia.jimdofree.com/the_german_slavist_wolf_oschiles.php


    Wolf Oschlies - 08.02.2014 - GREEK HATE CAN BE MITIGATED ONLY BY COLLECTIVE SUICIDE OF ALL MACEDONIANS!

    An important work recognizing Macedonian national individuality was that of the Austrian Karl Hron in 1899. He attacked the Serbian view as expressed through Verkovich and particularly Gopchevich, exposing its “weaknesses, distortions, falsifications and unscientific conclusions concerning the proper position of the Macedonians with respect to their nationality”. Hron was convinced that the Macedonians were not “Serbs or Bulgarians”, but “a specific national group”. (11) Although he did not provide specific population data he nevertheless concluded that the Macedonians were the dominant ethnic group in the land.
    ...
    https://www.macedoniantruth.org/forum/printthread.php?t=567&pp=10&page=23
    https://makedonien-geschichte.blogspot.com/2020/11/karl-hron-makedonier-sind-ein-eigener.html
#15157501
Odiseizam wrote:I provided greek source that the commission was evoked by King Constantine I of Greece, still You are willing to oversee that!


Sigh, reality:

The Report of the International Commission to Inquire into the Causes and Conduct of the Balkan Wars is a document published in Washington D.C. in 1914 by the Carnegie Endowment for International Peace.

The International Commission consisted of university professors and other prominent individuals from France, Great Britain, United States, Germany, Austria and Russia. Among the members of the Commission there were three Nobel Prize winners.[1]

The Commission went to the participating countries at the beginning of August 1913 and remained until the end of September. After returning to Paris all the material was processed and released in the form of a detailed report. The report speaks of the numerous violations of international conventions and war crimes committed during the Balkan Wars. The information collected was published by the Endowment in the early summer of 1914, but was soon overshadowed by the beginning of the First World War.[2]

According to Mark Levene in 2020, the report is "thoroughly documented and still highly regarded".[3]


Odiseizam wrote:the vatican info hm try translate it and ask from vatican archive official stance, its news article from the prime newspaper here! ... but wait there are tons of similar evidence,


It's an editorial in a newspaper from Skopje not evidence from the Vatican as you claim.

Odiseizam wrote:The German Slavist Wolf Oschlies writes that in the 15th century the Germans did not know anything about Bosnia or BULGARIA, but were well informed about Macedonia, what kind of country it was and where it was situated.


It's fake news, your site does not cite any source, it just makes things up. The same site claims that the Egyptian language found in the Rosetta Stone is actually "Slavic". Another fantastic claim by alt-historians in Skopje and the amazing thing is that the Academy of Science of Skopje endorsed the position that 'ancient Egyptian was actually Slavic'. :eek:

Odiseizam wrote:mind, but being in same time greek and macedonian simply is not possible, in terms of modern nationality this is absurd


Who is the one denying who the right to self-determination? Why do you feel that something is denied from you when its shown that the slavic population of Macedonia was officially called Bulgarian and the population itself suffered for being Bulgarian and was transferred back and forth 2-3 times in the course of a few decades. These people proved themselves to be Bulgarians and were recognised as such by everybody.

The integral relationship of Greece and Macedonia needs no introduction mate.

From the Memoirs of Baron De Tott(London 1786), who travelled the Balkans in page 159 we read:

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"Greeks" and "Macedonians" is interchangeable.

From the travels of Jesuit missionaries in 1715 we read:

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Macedonia, this Noble part of Greece

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"The Greeks are great in number"

Macedonian Language wrote:The surviving public and private inscriptions found in Macedonia indicate that there was no other written language in ancient Macedonia but Greek,[5][6] and recent epigraphic discoveries in the Greek region of Macedonia, such as the Pella curse tablet, suggest that ancient Macedonian might have been a variety of North Western Ancient Greek.[7][8][9]
#15157514
if get direct references from libraries for what I've quoted what will be your excuse then noemon? those are not invented quotes but true one! the problem with our historiography is that cant grasp the fact that we as macedonians are under two centuries if not more constant neighboring denial propaganda, and instead they to put effort refuting this kind of greek and bulgarian exceptionalism, if as historians they somehow just wait on the corrupt politicians so they wold make public all the facts, its some sort of political quite tactics coz euroatlantic integrations chased by euroatlantic poltrons who eventually maybe are afraid to stood up to this explicit ethnocid even in this century!!!

    almost as like this we will solve anything, arguing whether greeks has the exceptional right on Macedonia and Macedonias, yes europeans even nowadays are letting them to molest us the nation that chose to call itself Macedonia and Macedonians without taking any right to other to do so, contrary Greece and Greeks are doing it continuously, pardon Bulgaria and Bulgarians too, and if You or anyone else think that such behavior is ok let me remind You that because Your hatrate and possessiveness in the end You will enact on yourself damnation as Christians having no excuse on the Final Judgment why You were hatting grabbing and molesting Your neighbor!!! as from mine stand point this all the help I can provide hopefully some prayers too, in same time I need to remind my compatriots that they dont need to copy your negating or hating blueprint in self'defense but to understand that those who will be last in this world those will be first in The Kingdom Of Heaven so endure all the negation and dont Judge ...


now noemon little metaphysics, You joked upon Christianity too as what if replay, dont do that coz its sure path to oblivion for your soul! sincerely its not my will to outperform your greek exceptionalism nor somehow to judge You and your Greece for the balkan wars, actually I am pointing that for all the mess the fault is european, and they need to put their forefinger on their foreheads before this and similar rapings dont fireback cymatically to all of them, its simple we live in causal world and every drop in it has wider repercussions on spiritual level, knowing that the spiritual world is the essence of this one, I can just say as elites they are learning too slow what that means, but again everything is Our Almighty Lords Providence thus Glory To Him we are not in this world because some special personal earthly pride even less national, but so we can earn Salvation, I know for many this is unbelievable, but hey we live in the beginning of the end so brace yourself for the time ahead us, I can just say only calm and faithful heart will survive, so dont lie nor stole nor judge even less hate, but be humble and forgive, as I am concern reconciliation for me personally is the forgiveness, and I have forgive, but how greeks can forgive themselves by ignoring the facts and the reality, that its their job in the end, I can just try to help, Free Will so it depends on them first of all personally! its pity that despite that in Greece is the Holy Mountain Athos as temptation the greek nationalism which is freemasonic concept is greater than the Christian Love and Forgivness because even many episcops (bishops) judge through nationalism, hope at least in the Church that hatred will disappear!
#15157536
Odiseizam wrote:if get direct references from libraries for what I've quoted what will be your excuse then noemon? those are not invented quotes but true one!


The editorial of an online news outlet from Skopia is not evidence from the 'Vatican archives', the editorial itself does not cite its actual source which is a red flag that the alleged source does not actually exist.

Odiseizam wrote:the problem with our historiography


The problem is that it was developed in 1944 by Serbians who sought to destroy the Bulgarian identity of the language, people and heroes of the people in their province.

The problem the Serbians had was that the Bulgarian population in the Vardarska province already had a collective memory of the Bulgarian national heroes like Tsar Samuil, Tatarchev and others, so the communist Serbs did not want to say to the Bulgarian people that "Tsar Samuil is not your hero" because people would object to that so instead the Serbs said, "tsar Samuil was not Bulgarian but 'Macedonian' and Macedonian is better than Bulgarian, it's more ancient and has more prestige and also we need to invade the real Macedonia" so "let's rename this province and let's go make war to take Macedonia from Greece cause Greeks are weak now that they have a Civil war".

That was the 4th and final attempt in 40 years that a Slavic country was unsuccessfully invading Greece to grab Macedonia.

Odiseizam wrote:to stood up to this explicit ethnocid even in this century


The Serbs destroyed the Bulgarian identity of the people of Vardarska and that is indeed a form of "ethnicide". The Serbian propaganda became so strong that the word 'Bulgarian' itself became a dirty and pejorative word that noone wanted to be associated with.

Odiseizam wrote:I am pointing that for all the mess the fault is european


It's convenient to blame foreigners all the time. But I do not think they or the Greeks can help you on this matter.

The only way to move forward is to face the truth for what it is and be comfortable in your own skin. There is nothing wrong with speaking a Slavic language that is closely related to Bulgarian, there is nothing wrong with sharing an ethno-cultural space with the Bulgarian people. You 're ethnic-brothers with them just like the Greeks are with the Greek Cypriots and the Serbs are with the Montenegrins.

It's not a "sin" to recognise this obvious ethnic-affinity and be ok with it.
#15157546
this neighboring exceptionalism, greek and bulgarian, is such madly pushed that think even term like ethnicism cant be proper etiquette in comparison to racism, tho who knows if regularly used by european media maybe it could trigger more easier social catharsis so as nations You'll start to see "others" more hamanely. at least more common people will wake up to the fact that denial is not your right but your excuse for prolonged molesting of particular people in this case macedonians!
must acknowledge whole Greece is not brainwashed exceptionally, there are many that are conscious about this problem, yet the greek authorities are eager to silence them quickly, here is even one institutional example ...

    17.09.2008 ~ Panayote Dimitras Facing High Treason Charges for Speaking about Macedonians ~ http://www.pollitecon.com/html/reprints/Panayote_Dimitras_Facing_Treason_Charges.html

I can offer way more examples, but choking this thread with continual exposing of the greek or bulgarian exceptionalism will not help anyhow Your social atmosphere to loosen, as I said earlier the most naive "victims as haters" of this quite ethnicism are You, hm after more than century constant denial of existence of macedonians, pushed turbo through the educational systems of Your countries what to say You become such a haters that even macedonians and albanians that recently were in war dodnt have such animosity for the other, still my aim in this thread was not to point per'se how You can overcome Your ultra'nationalistic brain damages, but more like message to macedonians that they should not fall on them and like that loosing their Peace and Salvation turning back with anger towards our deniers, if they really want to change something they as macedonians should found more creative ways of exposing this macedonian exodus which still exists, what actually must be done through academic european level where macedonians would trigger historical cultural and political debates constantly, so once and for all at least on european level europeans to acknowledge their mistakes as from the past so as the present, and awaken like that finally to push dismantling of the stil alive ethnicism in balkans! definitely earlier greeks at least on political level were afraid from macedonian irredentism, publicly expressing such fears in the recent past, but now think there is no more room for such phobia and all of them should chill out, yet somehow think its almost impossible that the implanted collective ethnicim could be reverted, thats why europeans need to intervene and correct their ambivalence or ignorance to this circumstances that still even today are embracing europe as union joined by ethnicist members ! what was not regularly known and expressed by Greece is that they were exactly on political level aligned with their official historiography i.e. there are no macedonians but just bulgarians, but they've kept silent about this officially and pushed just the state name dispute open, altho the same as negation is also complementary as human right of free expression, hm most probably knowing that the bulgarians day after will jump on negating the macedonian language and ethnicity, what actually now is happening, but defacto as can be seen from Your mindset noemon many if not most of the greeks resonate like You, and this is real social problem of your artificial xenophobia ...

    The name problem was raised high by the Greek propaganda to the level of social endangerment and thus they managed to cause social trauma that is pervading not just the Greeks from the country but also those of the Diaspora. An indicator for this trauma is not only the attitude of each Greek with their furious reactions at any place, at any time, at any occasion of the mentioning of the name Republic of Macedonia, the collective actions motivated by the recognition of the country under the temporary name, such as meetings (the meeting in Thessaloniki in 1992 attracted one million protesters, and the one in Melbourne one hundred thousand), but, before all, the attained political unity - even back in 1992 the political parties in Greece agreed that the word "Macedonia" is not acceptable in any way for the new state (Roudometof, 2002: 32). On the other hand, the extreme nationalism of Greece was not a sufficient challenge at least for a revision of the interpretation of the already undertaken commitments with the two mentioned amendments to the Constitution, as well as to take over a firm position in relation to the need in the draft Interim Agreement to incorporate article 8 of the Declaration of the United Nations on the Rights of Persons belonging to National or Ethnic, Religious and Language Minorities, as well as the Recommendation for minority rights of the Parliamentary Assembly of the Council of Europe.

    Here we will mention the conclusion made by Jeffrey Alexander that "the events by themselves and for themselves create social trauma," they "are not inherently traumatic. Trauma is socially mediated attribution". The forced assimilation of the Macedonian population in Greece, with emphasized extermination consequences, occurred over a long period before the outbreak of the new nationalist wave caused by membership of the Republic of Macedonia to the UN, but - as Alexander stated - "the attribution does not have to be executed in the real time when the event is happening: it can also be done before the event happens, as an indicator of unconsciousness, or after the occurrence of the event, as post hoc reconstruction" (Alexander 2012: 13). The particular collective trauma of the "Aegean" population in Macedonia could have served as a basis for creating social collective trauma as a means for facing the Greek nationalism, but that did not occur......Contrary to this, in Greece a collective trauma was created out of events that have not even occurred, which again is in line with the thesis of Alexander that the nationalistic ideology can produce such situations when "...events that are deeply traumatizing may not actually have occurred at all; such imagined events, however, can be as traumatizing as events that have actually occurred." (Alexander 2012: 13). The construct of the Greek collective trauma was effectuated soon after its appearance through a two-year economic blockade on Macedonia, with grave consequences on its fragile economy and with its additional incorporation in the Interim agreement signed between the governments of the Republic of Macedonia and Greece on 13th of September 1995.
    ...
    http://periodica.fzf.ukim.edu.mk/socr/SOCR%202017.1/SOCR 2017.1.03. Tasheva, M. Minoski, K. - Egzodusot na Makedoncite od Egejska Makedonija-proces na individualna i kolektivna trauma.pdf
#15157553
Odiseizam wrote:this neighboring exceptionalism, greek and bulgarian, is such madly pushed that think even term like ethnicism


How is the recognition of the Bulgarian language, customs and heroes "Greek exceptionalism"? :eh:

Odiseizam wrote:
    17.09.2008 ~ Panayote Dimitras Facing High Treason Charges for Speaking about Slavic Macedonians ~ http://www.pollitecon.com/html/reprints/Panayote_Dimitras_Facing_Treason_Charges.html


It's fake news mate.

Panayiotis Dimitras runs 5 NGO's in Greece and is proud to have pressed over 5000 charges against Greek individuals & journalists.

https://athensreviewofbooks.com/arxeio/ ... os-minytis

Odiseizam wrote:I can offer way more examples,


Your country is the number one source of fake news in the world today, which for the size of the country says something:

wired wrote:In the final weeks of the US presidential election, Veles attained a weird infamy in the most powerful nation on earth; stories in The Guardian and on BuzzFeed revealed that the North Macedonian town of 55,000 was the registered home of at least 100 pro-Trump websites, many of them filled with sensationalist, utterly fake news. (The imminent criminal indictment of Hillary Clinton was a popular theme; another was the pope’s approval of Trump.) The sites’ ample traffic was rewarded handsomely by automated advertising engines, like Google’s AdSense. An article in The New Yorker described how President Barack Obama himself spent a day in the final week of the campaign talking “almost obsessively” about Veles and its “digital gold rush.”

Within Veles itself, the young entrepreneurs behind these websites became subjects of tantalizing intrigue. Between August and November, Boris earned nearly $16,000 off his two pro-Trump websites. The average monthly salary in North Macedonia is $371.


The denial of all things Bulgarian is indeed a form of ethnicide & racism that was applied by the Serbs to the Bulgarian population of Vardarska Banovina and hence why the mere mention of Bulgarian causes such a reaction because its association with something 'dirty' runs very high in your society while at the same time you are claiming all the Bulgarian victims as your own victims and all the Bulgarian heroes as your heroes while arguing that the Bulgarians are the confused ones who are stealing your history and the Greeks and the world and Christianity and everybody.

This kind of paradox has created a society upon which people rely on fake-news on a massive scale.
It's not an insult to recognise the Bulgarian affinity in language, customs, heroes. The entire planet documented it as Bulgarian extensively via WW1 reports.
#15157555
You are just landing acclamation marks for your exceptionalism noemon, how fake news would be bbc? btw I am proud of the protrump macedonian bots that have give him some room again whole monster of deepstate mainstream propaganda, with whta actually we helped the world to stay a bit peaceful because with HillaryC we would alread had ww3 [1][1] anyway using such example so You would claim how my country is fake is additional symptomatology till which extent one could spinn contra argument so he would approve own exceptional ethnist mindset! the other more symptomatic ethnocid argument is the spin that I am negating bulgarians, how so, did I say they are macedonians, no, greks and bulgarians say we are not macedonians, so the denial here is on the macedonian language and culture through nationalistic pressure that lasts more that one century, and as it could be seen is still well and alive!

in the next two paragraphs I'll point to more deeper metaphysical consequences of this kind of prevalent neighboring exceptionalism, the first one potentially geopolitical, the second one more real and important an Christocentric one ...

    as I said I dont bother so much, as I can point just on the risks as result of such reality, now how when and why causality will hit this world coz that cant say! yet seeing how eager are Greece and Bulgaria on macedonian denial, indeed I am starting to sense that maybe their fears arose from the existence of secrete annex to the Bucharest Treaty when partitioning of Macedonia was politically acclaimed by the big powers, in that annex "supposedly" is stated "when and if macedonian people get independence in one part the rest two should be returned and joined", if this myth about such annex is real then indeed causality will hit even worst than we can imagine in respect how Greece and Bulgaria now behaves, hope that this just story and not real case, altho only such fantastic proposition could explain the still prevailing negation of Macedonia and Macedonians ! normal mind cant find any other reason why someone to negate officially other! I can understand any historiography to have own interpretation on anything, but as such to be used for political means of negating someones not physical but soulful rights that is more than psyop but official xenophobia!!!

if by any means You change Your mind, and accept the reality with existence of macedonians You should know like that will indeed get freeway to Salvation not just for You but also for the world because the Greek Church will be also unburdened from its ethnophiletism and accept that Macedonia with the Archbishopric of Ohrid is the missing link in Orthodoxy so it would compact us all in one Ecclesial Church, I cant say enough how important is this, but backdoor solutions will not resolve the case, and its not mine to judge but to ask give the World Peace A Chance, only United Orthodoxy can stop the nwo existance, but after all its our Free Will and if inchurched people even more priests and episocops cant overcome their ethnophiletism then we are all doomed!
#15157557
Odiseizam wrote:I dont bother so much, as I can point just on the risk as result of such reality, now how when and why causality will hit this world coz that cant say! yet seeing how eager are Greece and Bulgaria, indeed I am starting to sense that maybe their fears arose from the existence of secrete annex to the Bucharest Treaty when partitioning of Macedonia was politically acclaimed by the big powers, in that annex is said that is stated "when and if macedonian people get independence in one part all the rest should be returned and joined", if this myth about such annex is real then indeed causality will hit even worst than we can imagine


Honestly brother, this is not healthy mate.

ethnophiletism


It is ethnophyletism of the worst kind to deny the Bulgarian victims their own identity because you associate the term 'Bulgarian' as inferior.

It's based on extreme racism imbued on the word "Bulgarian" to taint it as something that "we cannot be under any circumstances despite honouring all national Bulgarian heroes".

This is the kind of nationalism that you are currently espousing here but plenty of people in your country are becoming more comfortable in their own skin:

EU Observer wrote:North Macedonians line up to get Bulgarian citizenship
By HONOR MAHONY

With Bulgaria set to join the EU next year, North Macedonians are lining up get Bulgarian citizenship entitling them to the rights of fellow European Union citizens.

Die Welt reports that around 20,000 North Macedonians already have Bulgarian passports while another 20,000 have applied to the Sofia authorities for citizenship.

To get citizenship, North Macedonians have to prove that they have some ancestral connection to Bulgaria - but with the intertwined history of the two countries, this is not proving too difficult for many from North Macedonia.

According to Sofia news agency, former prime minister Ljubcho Georgievski and his wife have also taken on Bulgarian citizenship.

While North Macedonia has taken the first steps on the road to the EU, scooping official candidate membership status in December, it is still several years from actual membership of the bloc.

Citizens from Ukraine, Moldova, Russia, Montenegro and Serbia have also applied for Bulgarian citizenship.


The agreement with Greece at least finalised the matter with Greece and now your brand of exceptional nationalism may go out of fashion though I would not really hold my breath because it is embedded across the entire academic and media infrastructure of Skopje.

When the National Academy of Science officially endorses the position that the ancient Egyptians spoke Slavic then things are on another level.

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