German Politics, Great Depression etc. - Politics Forum.org | PoFo

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Inter-war period (1919-1938), Russian civil war (1917–1921) and other non World War topics (1914-1945).
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#13465096
Smilin' Dave wrote:The SPD was largely a party of the middle class.

I know it is a rather minor issue but I do beg to differ. The SPD was, as of 1932 still to the largest part composed of workers. Granted these were often skilled workers - in fact some of the most prominent social democratic leaders (Ferdinand Lassalle, August Bebel, Friedrich Ebert) were qualified workers. The majority of their supporters were however members of the working class.
As late as 1932 the percentage of workers among those who voted for the SPD was as high as 60%. The same cannot be said for the NSDAP, where the percentage of workers among their electorate never exceeded 40%. Nazism as a movement was largely carried by the middle class and the youth which would speak against Germany having a middle class that was "doing quite well". At least it didn't have that impression for itself.

Split from another topic - SD
#13465360
I disagree Dave, the German middle class was in trouble, they had their savings wiped out in the early 20's hyper inflation, but the wiemar republic created a lot of middle class employment on the basis of US loans. The Middle class had fear of an unstable economy. and the Downturn on the early 30s meant that the Wiemar republic could not longer go on spending more than it earned , the fools pardise propped up by US easy loans. The run up to WW1 and WW2 are profoundly different in german economic terms (if not everything else). The middle class had fears about the economy, and the downturn was sevre enough.
By Smilin' Dave
#13466338
Okonkwo wrote:I know it is a rather minor issue but I do beg to differ. The SPD was, as of 1932 still to the largest part composed of workers. Granted these were often skilled workers - in fact some of the most prominent social democratic leaders (Ferdinand Lassalle, August Bebel, Friedrich Ebert) were qualified workers. The majority of their supporters were however members of the working class.
As late as 1932 the percentage of workers among those who voted for the SPD was as high as 60%. The same cannot be said for the NSDAP, where the percentage of workers among their electorate never exceeded 40%. Nazism as a movement was largely carried by the middle class and the youth which would speak against Germany having a middle class that was "doing quite well". At least it didn't have that impression for itself.

You're right that the SPD wasn't the most middle-class party in Germany during that period, but being one of the largest parties in Germany, 40% of the membership is quite a few people. My point from the original thread (which supposed to be about Napoleon...) was that portraying Germany as ripe for Communism or the victim of great worker exploitation was wrong. With the biggest left-wing party being a socialist party, but one that wasn't supportive (or supported by) the Communist Party. The role of the middle class in the SPD might have had something to do with this.

pugsville wrote:I disagree Dave, the German middle class was in trouble, they had their savings wiped out in the early 20's hyper inflation, but the wiemar republic created a lot of middle class employment on the basis of US loans. The Middle class had fear of an unstable economy. and the Downturn on the early 30s meant that the Wiemar republic could not longer go on spending more than it earned , the fools pardise propped up by US easy loans. The run up to WW1 and WW2 are profoundly different in german economic terms (if not everything else). The middle class had fears about the economy, and the downturn was sevre enough.

The German middle class, if we take a broader view (and voters, as always, didn't ;) ), were in no danger of going anywhere. Economic crises might wipe out their savings, but they always bounced back in the end. The domestic elements of the Great Depression in Germany (dependence on loans, agriculture etc.) did not themselves threaten the existence of the German middle class and the global crisis of the time would eventually flow away. The German middle class had been fairly strong politically and economically for centuries, and wasn't really about to go anywhere. Hence my original objection to the simplistic image of Germany as one of workers and 'fat cat' exploiters.
By pugsville
#13466416
I still think the German Middle class had been battered heavily in the early twenties, and when the downturn begun, they as a class had resources to fall back on, when the wiemar republics easy money dried up. They may well have been likely to do well in the longer term, but there fathers had down well pre-ww1, and they had seemed to fail and be often much reduced to much nearer the working class. I think that they had concearns and worries, they were not fulfilling their ambitions, seemed to be failing backwards. I think the worries, insecruties, fears of the german middle class are pretty important in understanding how things happened.
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By Okonkwo
#13466417
Smilin' Dave wrote:With the biggest left-wing party being a socialist party, but one that wasn't supportive (or supported by) the Communist Party. The role of the middle class in the SPD might have had something to do with this.

Absolutely. With the social democrats having the major role in the establishment of the Weimar Republic (the other two smaller parties in the "Weimar coalition" that created the constitution and established the republic as a parliamentary democracy being the conservative Zentrum and the liberal DDP) it was simply not possible any more to claim heritage to revolutionary ideologies such as Marxism the party was originally founded on. During the Weimar years the SPD became some sort of governing party, forming coalitions with the liberal and conservative parties and doing everything in their power to preserve the endangered Weimar Republic.

This shift from calling for the revolutionary overthrow of the state to reformism is definitely to be attributed to the growing role of the "Facharbeiter" (craftsmen, tradesmen, skilled workers...) within the higher ranks of the party - my point was merely that this didn't make the SPD a middle-class party with the very exact connotations that word carries in its German translation ("bürgerlich"). Social democracy was still a working class movement, as much as the communists would like to deny that.
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By cicero91
#13542224
you mean the SPD was a working class party the communist always claimed? i would agree...
in fact hiltler instrumentalized the bad mood concerning the economy, the politics, so the the locarno treaty breached by the french-soviet treaty, to antagonize minorities, in this case the jews and the bolshevikism in the times after 1933. moreover hitler was a demagogue, when holding a speech, people hold their breath and were galvanised. this made him credible, so that the population was behind thim, also concerning a war-this is a quite important fact for the later outcomes, because te implement of war demands the approval of the population.

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