The Hoax of the 1932-33 Ukraine Famine - Politics Forum.org | PoFo

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#209795
Originally published in Challenge-Desafio, newspaper of the Progressive Labor Party, February 25, 1987, pp. 11, 13-14.


Why Should We Care?
Why should we care about this? Because any attack on the then-socialist Soviet Union is an attack upon all workers today. Capitalists were horrified by the Bolshevik Revolution of 1917. For the first time in human history common working people -- under the leadership of a communist party -- proved they could overthrow their exploiters and run a country far better without them. This event still electrifies the world.

Capitalists will do anything to tell workers and other people that this was wrong. Their main way of discouraging workers from fighting for communism is by attacking the ten- socialist USSR under Stalin.


Background
When the Bolsheviks (Russian communists) led the workers to seize power in October 1917, they took the land from large landowners and gave it to the peasants. by the end of the 1920s the Bolsheviks wanted the peasants to pool their land and equipment into collective farms. Greater efficiency would permit the government to collect more taxes, which could finance the industrialization of the ten-backward USSR. In order to do this, the Bolsheviks tried to win the poor and middle peasants to oppose the rich peasants, whom they thought would be the main obstacles to putting their property into collectives. Although many poor and middle peasants did support collectivization, most were either passive or hostile. Tens of thousands of committed workers were recruited in the cities and used force against those peasants who were unwilling to join the collectives.

According to the film, during 1932-33 millions of peasants in the Ukraine were deliberately started to death. This was supposedly done (1) to break the back of resistance to forced collectivization; and (2) to suppress Ukrainian nationalism by destroying the heart of the Ukrainian "nation," the peasant villages. The film claims soldiers and armed workers took most of the grain not only from those peasants who resisted collectivization, but also from those who were already on collective farms, leaving them to starve.

Both film and book were funded by Ukrainian nationalist organizations in the US and Canada. both strongly promote the idea of Ukrainian nationhood and attack communism. They repeatedly call the famine a "holocaust" and "genocide," and explicitly compare it to the German Nazis' massacre of six million Jews during WWII.


Nationalism Leads to Fascism
After the Russian Civil War (1918-21) which followed the Revolution, the leading Ukrainian nationalists fled to Western Europe, and turned to supporting Hitler. Entering the Soviet Union with the Nazi invasion in 1941, they engaged in hair-raising atrocities. The main group, the OUN (Organization of Ukrainian Nationalists) "adopted ... a programme palatable to the Nazis" and "prepared to engage in propaganda, intelligence, and, if necessary, sabotage through their followers in Canada, the United States, and Britain." Although claiming to speak for the Ukrainian people, they met initially with little popular support in the Soviet Union.1

In WWII, as during the Civil War, the Ukrainian nationalists were petty-bourgeois intellectuals, "unable to penetrate the mass of the population to any great extent." As a result, they relied heavily on their bosses, the Nazis: "The theory and teachings of the Nationalists were very close to Fascism, and in some respects, such as the insistence on `racial purity,' even went beyond the original fascist doctrines." 2

At least two of the persons who appear in the film are Nazi collaborators. Ivan Majstrenko, identified as a former Soviet journalist, is named by Armstrong as a founder of a nationalists émigré party in German in 1947. Metropolitan Mstyslav, head of the Ukrainian Orthodox Church in the USA, is identified as "a deputy in the Polish Parliament in 1932-33." Armstrong reveals he was a layman, that is, not a member of the clergy, who was made archbishop by the Nazis during the Nazi invasion, and who was "the most active nationalist among the Autocephalous (Ukrainian Orthodox) bishops." 3


An `Award-Winning' Film
Much is made of the fact that "Harvest of Despair" was awarded the gold medal in the TV Documentaries category and the Grand Award Trophy Bowl for "most outstanding entry" at the 28th International Film and TB Festival of New York in November 1985. Sounds impressive, right? Here's how a film magazine describes this festival:

"International Film and TV Festival of New York. Notoriously known as a pay-through-the-nose-for-a-snatch-of- the-big-time festival, it has been denigrated [criticized] over the years in this column for its policy of giving out specious [good-looking but meaningless] official plaques to all entries regardless of quality of the work." 4

A Canadian newspaper says this of Yurij Luhovy, the film's producer and editor: "The 34-year-old film-maker... admits most of his income has come from editing feature films of questionable quality. He has a reputation as a good `doctor' -- someone who's brought in to salvage a movie which is deemed unreleasable by film exhibitors and distributors." 5

Why would the makers of the film give it to an editor whose specialty is `saving" bad films, and then submit it to a "festival" that is the laughing-stock of the film industry? Because the film is a piece of dishonest, anti-Communist propaganda, as we will see.


Phony Film and Photographs
"The hour-long film ... depends heavily on still photographs of emaciated children and bodies being carted away to recreate the conditions in Ukraine in 1932."

"There can be no question that without the films and photographs uncovered from the 1932-33 famine, the film would lose much of its authority." 6

In 1935, a certain "Thomas Walker" published a five-part story on the famine in the chain of newspapers owned by the fanatical anti-Communist and pro-fascist tycoon William Randolph Hearst. Accompanying the series were photographs, supposedly of starving Ukrainian peasants, which Walker claimed he had taken personally. In March 1935, Louis Fischer, then a pro-Soviet reporter for The Nation, expressed some doubts about "Walker's" photos: "Mr Walker's photographs could easily date back to the Volga famine in 1921. many of them might have been taken outside the Soviet Union. They were taken at different seasons of the year ... One picture includes trees or shrubs with large leaves. Such leaves could not have grown by the `late spring' of Mr. Walker's alleged visit. Other photographs show winter and early fall backgrounds. Here is the Journal [Hearst's New York City newspaper] of the twenty-seventh. a starving, bloated boy of fifteen calmly poses naked for Mr. Walker. The next minute, in the same village, Mr. Walker photographs a man who is obviously suffering from the cold despite his thick sheepskin overcoat. The weather that spring must have been as unreliable as Mr. Walker to allow nude poses one moment and require furs the next."7

The famine stories ran in the Hearst press in February, 1935. Fischer's rejection of them appear early in march. By July, "Thomas Walker" was in a New York City jail, under arrest as Robert Green, an escaped convict from Colorado, where he was returned to serve out his sentence. Green admitted his photos were frauds, not taken in the Ukraine nor by himself. This was reported in all the New York City newspapers. The Daily Worker, paper of the then- revolutionary Communist Party USA, ran two detailed series about "Walker"/Green and some other phony accounts of the famine from July-20, 1935.

On November 17, 1986, Douglas Tottle, a Canadian researcher, exposed the sources of some of the fraudulent photos at a School Board meeting in Toronto, where Ukrainian nationalists and other anti-communists were trying to get the film and a course based upon it into the Toronto high school curriculum.

Stunned by Tottle's dramatic presentation, and in the presence of reporters from all the Toronto newspapers, Ukrainian nationalist professors began to run for cover. One of them, Orest Subtelny, admitted the still shots were from the 1921-22 famine but justified their use by saying the film lacked "impact" without them. "`You have to have visual impact. You want to show what people dying from a famine look like. Starving children are starving children,' said Subtelny. He offered no apologies for the deliberate attempt to mislead."

Another nationalist who had done research for the film is Marco Carynnyk. an article of his appeared in the November 1983 issue of Commentary, a US neo-conservative Zionist monthly, in which Carynnyk bitterly attacked Louis Fischer and Walter Duranty (New York Times Soviet correspondent during the `30s) for "covering up" the famine. but Tottle's revelations forced Carynnyk to admit he'd been a party to the real cover-up. According to the Toronto Star of November 20:

"Researcher Marco Carynnyk, who says he originated the idea of the film, says his concerns about questionable photographs were ignored.

Carynnyk said that none of the archival film footage used in the movie is of the Ukrainian famine and that `very few photos from `32-33' appear that can be traced as authentic.

A dramatic shot at the film's end of an emaciated girl, which has also been used in the film's promotional material, is not from the 1932-33 famine, Carynnyk said.

`I made the point that this sort of inaccuracy cannot be allowed,' he said in an interview. `I was ignored.'"

Carynnyk is suing the St. Vladimir's Institute, the nationalist sponsors of the film, for breach of contract and for copyright infringements. Rumor has it that the filmmakers doctored or distorted some of the interviews which Carynnyk made for the film.

Carynnyk's complaints at the November 17 Toronto Board of Ed meeting are dishonest, of course. The film has been out for three years. Yet Carynnyk never made public his "reservations" about the film's dishonesty until Tottle publicly exposed it. Neither did any of his cronies, with whom he has now apparently fallen out.

The Ukrainian nationalists' admissions clearly prove their intent to deceive. perhaps a few of the still photos of starving people cannot be traced to any source. So what? The nationalists now admit they knew that many others which they used were fraudulent, and that -- we may take Carynnyk's word for it -- none of the film footage used is of the famine.

This has been suggested before. Uniforms and other datable characteristics have suggested to Soviet experts that most - -perhaps even all -- of the footage shown while the narrator is discussing the famine is in fact not of the Ukraine during the `30s, but of the Civil War period (1918-21), or even from W.W.I (1914-18 ).

Even one of the panelists, Harrison Salisbury, refers to the fact: "it doesn't really disturb me that - I am certain from my familiarity with a lot of documentaries -- that it's a mishmash of all kinds of things put together. It may not be specifically accurate that each one of these horrible corpses actually was in the Ukraine or was in some other place, but in general, there were people exactly like that." 8 Salisbury stresses that he sees nothing wrong with this kind of deception, showing this "honest" anti-Communist's essential similarity to the Ukrainian nationalists. Anti-communism has a certain logic to it: it always ends up as fascism.

Researcher Tottle is publishing a book on the fraudulent scholarship surrounding the "Ukrainian famine" story. It is scheduled to appear within the next six months.


Nationalist `Scholars' and the Intent to Deceive
In a 1984 discussion, James Mace revealed there were two main sources of photos: "Walker's," and the German edition of a book by Ewald Ammende, an Austrian relief worker, published in 1935. Several statements here and in another article of Mace's published that year prove Mace knew that some of the photos were of suspicious origin.

First, Mace makes no mention of any film footage, which he certainly would have it he had known of any. 9 Second, Mace knew there was something wrong with the "Walker" and Ammende photos. He stated: "...he [Dalrymple, another anti- Communist] -- like Ewald Ammende before him -- was taken in by accounts in the Hearst press in 1935, which were updated to indicate that the famine continued into 1934, whereas any of the numerous eyewitnesses who came to the West after World War II would have told him that the famine actually ended in 1933. 10 How could a man who had supposedly traveled to the countryside and personally taken pictures of starving peasants have postdated his account by a whole year?

Third, Mace knew the "Walker" and Ammende accounts. In the 1984 pamphlet Mace makes this revelation about Ammende's book: "The English translation, Human Life in Russia, took some photographs from the Walker account and omitted some that appeared in the German edition, which was published in Vienna in 1935." 11 In fact, the English edition of Ammende's book states that the photos of starving people -- the same ones "Walker" claimed he had taken himself -- were the work of a "Dr. F. Dittloff, for many years director of the German Government Agricultural Concession (Drusag) in the North Caucasus."

"The photographs were taken by Dr. Dittloff himself in the summer of 1933, and they demonstrate the conditions then prevailing on the plains of the agricultural areas of the Hunger Zone. A few of them have been published before elsewhere without his permission. Dr. Dittloff accepts full responsibility for the guarantee of their authenticity (emphasis added)." 12

Both Mace and Conquest were obviously aware of the serious questions as to whether the photos are genuine, since they refer to both Ammende's book and Walker's articles, which contradict each other. They also refer to a book by James Crowl on the journalism of the 1930s, which outlines Louis Fischer's views. Neither Mace nor Conquest reveal any of these matters to their audience.

Mace has worked for years with Ukrainian nationalist committees. He wrote introductions both for Ammende's book (reissued in 1984) and for Alexa Woropay's nationalist tract, The Ninth Circle, both of which give contradictory sources for some of the still photos. Anyone who kept the "Walker" clips from 1935 would have also known of "Walker"'s disgrace the same year. Clearly Mace knew of this, and was a party to the fraud from the beginning.


Conclusion
"Where there's smoke, there's fire." No one has to lie about the truth. The anti-Communist, pro-fascist story about the "great famine" is nonsense. Anti-Communist groups are beginning to show this film, and other TV stations will carry it. They should be picketed for promoting fascist, anti-worker lies and, where possible, stopped.
By A_Technocrat
#209825
For the first time in human history common working people -- under the leadership of a communist party -- proved they could overthrow their exploiters and run a country far better without them.


If the USSR was run so much better then how come it doesn't still exist?
User avatar
By Sheep...
#209836
But maybe 'just' maybe this famine really did happen. Irregardless even if we knew the truth its not like it would change much, I highly doubt the west will jump onto the neo-soviet bandwagon simply because old facts which are now (I'm not trying to be disrespectful to those that may or may not have died in the 'famine') irrelevant.
By Kov
#209938
Thanks sheep, not offended, nor they are. Hell, they are dead. However, I still say it is hard to belive this would be "fabricated", if anything would need to be done reguarding such things, why not the Pshycic core reaserch or the gulags?

Shurly not this... this is history, lets leave most of it alone...
By Tovarish Spetsnaz
#209939
You find it hard to believe it was fabricated???

I find it hard to believe...that peple can believe it actually happened...when there is ABSOLUTELY no evidence anything like it happened.

There were no millions of deaths...Not in Ukraine...not elsewhere.


This has already been discussed before on this forum...look down the History Forum and find the thread...and read it.
User avatar
By Sheep...
#209956
TS what if it WAS true?
By B. H.
#209958
I read over the PLP site a while ago. If I remember right, they admit that people did STARVE during the mid-thirties in a famine. HOWEVER, it affected the whole of Ukraine, Kazakhstan, and Russia as well as a few other countries.

The article refutes a lot of lies that built up about the famine by the western capitalists such as Stalin deliberately causing it and that 5 to 10 millions died. The PLP research says that more realistically it was around 1,300,000 dead of hunger as well as disease and civil strife.

The PLP also refutes the charge that Stalin deliberately caused the famine.
By Kov
#210027
Spetz I find it hard to belive it did not happen when it was taught in a USSR school, or is there school system that bad you say?

I am confident it happened, Stalin or not, all though it always goes back to him, such a horrible thing could have never occured uder such an great and powerful leader. Other wise, I wish to leave it be, lets let it rest.

B.H. allthough I totaly agree with you "The PLP also refutes the charge that Stalin deliberately caused the famine." just started another 5 posts directed at you, hope you have fun ;)
By Tovarish Spetsnaz
#210038
First...it was not a FAMINE...it was shortages...and in some areas NEAR-famine conditions...

This happened in the years 1931-32...where Ukraine experienced a severe drought which led to much decreased production...

Decereased production led to shortages...which the government could do nothing...becasue the Kulak agriculture which existed a few years ago had left no reserves to make up for the shortages.

Second...Kulaks rose in opposition to the collectivization...especially in the Ukraine...where civil strife and virtual civil war errupted between the Kulaks and peasants.

Third...epidemics broke out in some areas of the Ukraine...adding to the death toll.


But there were no millions of deaths...and they were not due to famine...nor to any government fault. The Soviet government did its best to end the situation...shipped food, seeds, machinery and such to the collectives to produce more. Whole villages were abandaned and evacuated and reorganized...becasue they were failing. The Kulaks were crushed and removed as an opposition...

By 1933 a RECORD harvest was recorded...and the troubles were over.


in 1936 another severe drought hit the Ukraine and the USSR...this time however nothing happened...becasue collectivization had created enough reserves to eliminate any shortages.


That is what happened in the Ukraine and elsewhere...and by no means was this limited to the Ukraine (so there goes the genocide idiotcy)

It lasted for 2 years...most deaths were to epidemics or the fighting in the countryside against the Kulaks. Yes shortages and confusion was caused...which also led to epidemics breaking out...but it was not a famine...


As I already pointed out...look at another thread here in the History Forum where we discussed the "Ukrainian Famine". Look at the census data we have there...and we compared those census data with the US census of the 1930s...during the Great Depression. We found the US population suffered a greater population drop by percentage than the Soviet propulation experienced...in fact Soviet population experienced nearly no population drop at all since the mid 20s.

So what happened int he USSR in the 2 year period...could not have been worse than what happened in the US during the same period...But I don't see any of you geniouses calling the US Dperession a GENOCIDE...or a FAMINE...


Chose your words carefully...and think of facts...not rubish...


There was no genocide...there was no famine...all the stories and photographs have log been proven to be fakes and forgeries...proving even more that nothing of the sort happened (since they can't even find a photograph of it). The Kulaks who managed to escape the USSR and went to Romania or Poland...and then Germany and USA...wrote and fabricated stories of what was going on in the USSR...these becoem the basis for the Famine. It never existed anywhere other than in their fabricated stories and photos...
By Ixa
#210251
Tovarish Spetsnaz -- you are making sense; I have read some of the same things. However, I am interested in your sources.
By Tovarish Spetsnaz
#210328
What specifically would you like a source for?
By Gothmog
#210347
Tauger and Weathcroft on Soviet famines in the 30´s

http://www.artukraine.com/famineart/hrussia1.htm

Btw: I don´t know how death toll calculations were made, btw, already dicussed it with TS and he had some good points on this




This is in response to Lesia Chernihivska's note about the book of German letters and the reference to what she termed the "Ukrainian Famine" of the early 1930s.

I would just like to point out that I and a number of other scholars have shown conclusively that the famine of 1931-1933 was by no means limited to Ukraine, was not a "man-made" or artificial famine in the sense that she and other devotees of the Ukrainian famine argument assert, and was not a genocide in any conventional sense of the term. We have likewise shown that Mr. Conquest's book on the famine is replete with errors and inconsistencies and does not deserve to be considered a classic, but rather another expression of the Cold War.

I would recommend to Ms. Chernihivska the following publications regarding the 1931-1933 famine and some other famines as well. I will begin with my own because I believe that these most directly relate to her question.

Mark B. Tauger, "The 1932 Harvest and the Soviet Famine of 1932-1933," Slavic Review v. 50 no. 1, Spring 1991, 70-89, and my exchanges of letters with Robert Conquest over this article, Slavic Review v. 51 no. 1, 192-194 and v. 53 no. 1, 318-319.

Mark B. Tauger, Natural Disaster and Human Actions in the Soviet Famine of 1931-1933, Carl Beck Papers in Russian and East European Studies, no. 1506, June 2001.

These two articles show that the famine resulted directly from a famine harvest, a harvest that was much smaller than officially acknowledged, and that this small harvest was in turn the result of a complex of natural disasters that [with one small exception] no previous scholars have ever discussed or even mentioned. The foot notes in the Carl Beck Paper contain extensive citations from primary sources as well as Western and Soviet secondary works, among others by D'Ann Penner and Stephen Wheatcroft and R. W. Davies that further substantiate these points and I urge interested readers to examine those works as well.

An additional study on the issues of harvests and statistics from a comparative standpoint is Tauger, Statistical Falsification in the Soviet Union: A Comparative Case Study of Projections, Biases, and Trust. The Donald W. Treadgold Papers in Russian, East European, and Central Asian Studies, no. 34, August 2001.

An additional study on the issue of shortages is R. W. Davies, S. G. Wheatcroft, and Tauger, "Soviet Grain Stocks and the Famine of 1932-1933," Slavic Review v. 54 no. 3, Fall 1995, 642-657.

Tauger, "Grain Crisis or Famine? The Ukrainian State Commission for Aid Crop Failure Vicitims and the Ukrainian Famine of 1928-1929," in Donald Raleigh, ed., Provincial Landscapes: Local Dimensions of Soviet Power, U Pitt Press, 2001. This article discusses a real Ukrainian famine that has never been mentioned in any Western study and only peripherally in one or two post-Soviet Ukrainian works.

R. W. Davies reviewed Conquest's book Harvest of Sorrow in the journal Detente, 9/10 (1987), 44-45.

Finally a large group of Western, Russian, and Asian scholars are publishing a vast collection of formerly secret Soviet documents entitled Tragediia Sovetskoi Derevni, which contains extensive evidence that this was a Soviet-wide famine. Three volumes have so far appeared, published by Rosspen, and they are obtainable through Russian-language distributors like Panorama of Russia and the Russian Publication Service.

Mark B. Tauger mark.tauger@mail.wvu.edu
Associate Professor, Dept. of History
West Virginia University
Morgantown WV 26506-6303

http://www.international.ucla.edu/artic ... entid=3838

Finally, on the basis of substantial analysis of Soviet registration documents and mortality statistics, Wheatcroft concluded that the estimates of the human losses have been grossly exaggerated. In his view, the number of deaths due to the famine should be more accurately reported at around 4.5 million. A number, he was careful to point, that represents a horrendous human tragedy. But a tragedy at 4.5 million people is not any greater tragedy if the number is inflated to 7 million or more.

-This seems to include overall deaths from all USSR, including Khazakistan?
By Tovarish Spetsnaz
#210367
Finally, on the basis of substantial analysis of Soviet registration documents and mortality statistics


No doubt it was grossly exagerated...but what does this mean?? Mortality statistics and registration documents??

I don't think there is any way of determining deaths from so many natural causes like diseases, food shortages, near-famine conditions, displacement of villages and so forth....not even a general number.

For sure...the number of people who "starved" to death...was probably either very small or none at all. People died from diseases or other causes...and who is to say the epidemics would not have caused as much death if the shortages had not happened??

In Russia today...in some areas there are near-famine condtions...where in areas of Siberia for example people literally have NO food to eat but rely on charity (since they recieve no wages either). They don't starve to death...but the mortality rate is sky high in Russia today.

Can we say that the mortality rate in the USSR in those 2 years of drought and shortages...was any worse than it has been in these past 10 years fo Russia??? The Russian population is on a negative growth...and lack of food is one of the primary reasons.


And yet...there is ABSOLUTELY no mention of this tragedy...which is TRULY human-made...becasue it prevents people from eating becasue they can't afford to eat...becase the state doesn't give them wages to buy food.

This tragedy is happening right now...and has claimed the lives of 10 million people minimum...and yet we are talking about a NATURAL tragedy which happened 70 years ago...and was ended by the government...and very efficiently might I add.

What happened in the Ukraie and elsewhere...which extended into Khazakhistan and all the way to areas of Siberia...was a natural disaster...with drought seasons which yielded very little product. There was no reserve...becasue Kulak agriculture of previous years did not allow for reserves. For centuries...in Russian history when a drought came...it meant famine and deaths of millions of people becasue there were no reserves.

This situation repeated itself again in 1931-32...this time however collectivization was being build...and was fighting a war against the Kulaks. By 1933 the Kulaks were defeated...collectivization had won...the state had taken measures to deliver food more effectivly, to give collectives all the support they needed, and industry was able to provide the collectives with needed machinery and chemicals...and the conditions ended by 1933...which saw a record harvest,

As I said...drought came again in 1936...but this time nothing happened...becasue collective agriculture had created the needed reserve so that shortages and famines which happened in the Tsars times...would NEVER happen again in the USSR.


Now the liers and fascists in the west...turned this into something completely different...for their own benefit. The Kulaks who escaped told stories whicht hey had invented...the Hitlerite press spread their word around...and the American press fabricated stories and photographs of something which NEVER happened.

And to this day people keep talking of some Stalin plot to starve the Ukrainians...of some sort of man-made famine aimed at the Ukrainians. Maybe these idiots can tell us why there were reports of villages being abandaoned becasue of drought and lack of food as far as Novosibirsk...I guess there must have been Ukraininas there too.


This was not a fault of the Soviet government or agriculture...In fact...if any other form of government had been in place under the given circumstances...a real famine would have developed and would have really killed those millions of people they invent. These things happened at regularly in Tsarist Russia...but the Soviet state and the collectives in fact ENDED this near-famine that was developing in some areas of the USSR...not start it.



If people have an agenda of blaming something ont he Soviet government...they will do it...and they will resort ot lies and fabrications to do it. That is all very easy. If people want to look at things objectivly and look at the facts...and see exactly what happened at the time...they will realize that this is nothing like it is described in the west.

If people look at this in a historical prespective...and see how in tsarist Kulak agriculture famines wre a regular event...famine swhich killed millions happened regularly...and they see that thanks to collectivization not only was productivity much higher...but that the threat of famines and starvation from natural causes was completely eliminated. And that is the merit of collectivization.

Instead the scoundrels who like to fabricate things regarding this event...blame collectivization for "disrupting the fabric of the countryside". And what fabric was this??? This was the fabric that was already creating near-famine conditions in cities...which in the past was responsible for many famines which killed millions...and which was getting ready to create another nation-wide famine.

And those people call themselves historians...I call them scoundrels payed by the CIA and MI6 (which they were in actuallity)
By Gothmog
#210379
No doubt it was grossly exagerated...but what does this mean?? Mortality statistics and registration documents??


-I really don´t know. If you get Tauger´s articles, you will maybe will get a hint on the methodology theu used

I don't think there is any way of determining deaths from so many natural causes like diseases, food shortages, near-famine conditions, displacement of villages and so forth....not even a general number.
For sure...the number of people who "starved" to death...was probably either very small or none at all. People died from diseases or other causes...and who is to say the epidemics would not have caused as much death if the shortages had not happened??


-You have a point here, but diseases like malaria (who is one of the big killers after drought ends) have a higher mortality rate in poorly nourished populations. Same thing with thyphus.


In Russia today...in some areas there are near-famine condtions...where in areas of Siberia for example people literally have NO food to eat but rely on charity (since they recieve no wages either). They don't starve to death...but the mortality rate is sky high in Russia today.


-Right. As you see, there is no necessity of famine to increase mortality, but when you have famine, mortality rates really peak. Look to the fact I agree with you that we can´t do more than estimates on mortality of those disasters. In my own country, we have two famines (1877-78 and 1896-97) who killed more than 5% of our population. Still, the majority of people died from smallpox, not famine, still those were famine related deaths.


Can we say that the mortality rate in the USSR in those 2 years of drought and shortages...was any worse than it has been in these past 10 years fo Russia??? The Russian population is on a negative growth...and lack of food is one of the primary reasons.
And yet...there is ABSOLUTELY no mention of this tragedy...which is TRULY human-made...becasue it prevents people from eating becasue they can't afford to eat...becase the state doesn't give them wages to buy food.


-Yes, the burgeoise press is quite selective.....


This tragedy is happening right now...and has claimed the lives of 10 million people minimum...and yet we are talking about a NATURAL tragedy which happened 70 years ago...and was ended by the government...and very efficiently might I add.


-Here we disagree. From what I´ve been studying, famine is usually created by bad policies PLUS natural disasters. Lacking one of those elements, it usually don´t happen. Althought the numbers of death and the responsability of Soviet government is debatable, it seems most historians accept that there was a famine in 32-33, including those sources from PLP, who estimate the number of deaths in 2 million (nothing even close to the 12-30million of Indians who perished in the 1870-1900 famines under the "enlightened" governments of the British rulers).



And those people call themselves historians...I call them scoundrels payed by the CIA and MI6 (which they were in actuallity)


-Mark Tauger is considered an Stalin apologizer and is extremely critical of Conquest, as you can see. Weathcroft is one of the Revisionist historians, which, in the language of cold war, are considered moderately pro Stalin. I use them as balanced sources, given their high quality research
By Gothmog
#210388
-I want to clarify my points. I´m neither a defender of the "deliberate genocide thesis" nor a famine denier. I agree with TS on the fact that the task of calculating overall victims of famine is somewhat difficult. It seems something really terrible happened in USSR by 1932-33, since no historian denies it, althought the overall death toll goes from 2-7 million (I would, personally, take Weathcroft numbers as being the closest to reality and considering he is counting all deaths in USSR and also excesses deaths due to epidemics). It´s dificult to judge what happened from a moral standpoint. I think there was an infortunate coincidence of poor policies and bad weather, just like happened in Ireland of 1840´s and in Brazil and India and 1870-90´s. Much of the death toll can be related to poor information. USSR by 1930´s had extremely poor communications and the absence of a free press didn´t help too much. I agree with A. Sen whe he argues that democracy prevents acute (epidemic) famine. On the other hand, socialism, by providing better food distribution, is better to end chronic undernutrition. In any case, economic development is important to feed the masses. Stalinism, unlike the British or Brazilian rulers, was able to achieve significant economic growth and improve living standards of Soviet people. Unfortunately, this growth was only achieved at a substantial death toll. Would have been possible to achieve those same results with less human suffering? I really din´t know.
By Tovarish Spetsnaz
#210396
-Mark Tauger is considered an Stalin apologizer and is extremely critical of Conquest, as you can see. Weathcroft is one of the Revisionist historians, which, in the language of cold war, are considered moderately pro Stalin. I use them as balanced sources, given their high quality research


You missunderstood me...I was talking of Conquest and co...not those historians.

USSR by 1930´s had extremely poor communications and the absence of a free press didn´t help too much. I agree with A. Sen whe he argues that democracy prevents acute (epidemic) famine.


Poor communications?? perhaps this has to do with the time...1930s. Free press?? Soviet press was actually the most critical of its own government...at the local level at least...the press would make the most of failures or shortages...which led Maxim Gorky to say that the press should be controlled more because it is providing our enemies with tools to use against us.

The Soviet press did in fact report on what was going on in the Ukraine or elsewhere...on what it could report. The press could not report on harvast figures...because those were provided by the local government...and if anyone lied...it was the local government. The press just reported their numbers.

The real weakness...was that the Soviet state had very little control over what happened. Agriculture was mostly in the hands of individual peasants and Kulaks. The failure that happened...happened as a result of the fact that individual peasant and Kulaks could not support the nation...and inevitably would lead to famine...just as they had led to many many times before.



Democracies can prevent famines?? I don't think so. Capitalism can prevent SOME famines...those which happen in the developed capitalist countries...as happened in the US at this same period. When US agriculture collapsed...the capitalists prevented a famine not through democracy...but by exporting more food from other third world countries (also by the fact that food consumption was very much down due to lack of money in the people)


Either way...I don't think this merits being called a famine. There was no famine....in that people did not starve to death. It was as much a famine as happened in the US in the 1930s or in Russia today. There was a great decrease in the US population during the period...just as there was a great decrease in the Russian population today. So are these famines???

I don't think the victims of the shortages, the epidemics and the near Civil War...were in the millions. The fact that agriculture was able to pick itself up very rapidly...and by 1933 make a record harvest...shows that the situation was not as bad. Even in the Ukraine...in Kiev...there was no notice of any famine.
By Gothmog
#210473
You missunderstood me...I was talking of Conquest and co...not those historians.


-I understand, but none of them denies there was famine, what they deny is that the famine was deliberate.

Poor communications?? perhaps this has to do with the time...1930s.


-But also with the geographical peculiarities of USSR and with its economic backwardness. Poor communications, from my point,
explain why the government didn´t react in time to the famine.
They simply didn´t know what was happening (the same thing
happened in Maoist China, from 1957 to 1960)


Free press?? Soviet press was actually the most critical of its own government...at the local level at least...the press would make the most of failures or shortages...which led Maxim Gorky to say that the press should be controlled more because it is providing our enemies with tools to use against us.


-From what I know the Soviet press failed to report what was happening
with accuracy

The Soviet press did in fact report on what was going on in the Ukraine or elsewhere...on what it could report. The press could not report on harvast figures...because those were provided by the local government...and if anyone lied...it was the local government. The press just reported their numbers.


-An here we are back to the communications problem

The real weakness...was that the Soviet state had very little control over what happened. Agriculture was mostly in the hands of individual peasants and Kulaks. The failure that happened...happened as a result of the fact that individual peasant and Kulaks could not support the nation...and inevitably would lead to famine...just as they had led to many many times before.


-I agree with you, USSR was on the verge of famine before the collectivization, because the peasants produced too few surpluses to feed the cities. But collectivization resulted in a temporary worsening of the situation, given the resistance from peasants (not withouth reason, btw)


Democracies can prevent famines??


-Yes, A.Sen´s point is that free press and civil society presses the government for fast relief when famine happens, while a free press
is better to investigate the situation. He is quite right on this, since
no large scale famines ever happened in democracies. However,
democracies don´t prevent chronic food shortages and large scale
undernutrition, quite the opposite, those troubles are well tolerated
by democracies. The best comparison is that of democractic India
vs Maoist China. While India never had a famine like that of 57-60,
data on overall mortality, children mortality, and life expectancy
show a HUGE advantage from Maoist China, despite similar starting
conditions for both countries.

Either way...I don't think this merits being called a famine. There was no famine....in that people did not starve to death. It was as much a famine as happened in the US in the 1930s or in Russia today. There was a great decrease in the US population during the period...just as there was a great decrease in the Russian population today. So are these famines???


-No, the causes of population decline in both countries are probably worsening of living standards, worse access to healthcare and poverty. However, in Ukraine, as in China from 57-60, there seems to have
happened a much sharper change in mortality patterns, coupled with
reports from famine (that was ackowledged even by Stalinists)
By Gothmog
#210482
http://www.chss.montclair.edu/english/f ... terhol.pdf
Great article from Tauger


"Famine deniers" articles

http://www.chss.montclair.edu/english/furr/vv.html
There was indeed a famine in the Ukraine in the early 1930s. It appears likely that hundreds of thousands, possibly one or two million, Ukrainians died -- the minority from starvation, the majority from related diseases. By any scale, this is an enormous toll of human suffering. By general consensus, Stalin was partially responsible. By any stretch of an honest imagination, the tragedy still falls short of genocide.

http://www.plp.org/cd_sup/ukfam2.html

http://www.plp.org/cd_sup/ukfam5.html
1. In an earlier article we saw that the best recent research indicates a "population deficit" in the USSR for the entire period between 1926 and 1939 of 9 million at most, and that a large proportion of these were births that failed to take place -- i.e. a result of a decline in the birth rate -- not actual deaths of living people. Assuming the mortality (death) and fertility (birth) rates that the most expert bourgeois population researchers think reasonable, actual excess deaths during these 13 years from all causes were probably in the 3.2 to 5.5 million range. Perhaps a million or so could be attributed to the time of the famine (1932-33), and most of these to deaths from epidemic diseases, often aggravated by malnutrition. See the first article in this series for the details. Back to text of this article
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