[B0ycey]

The top 1 percent paid a greater share of individual income taxes (38.5 percent) than the bottom 90 percent combined (29.9 percent). The top 1 percent of taxpayers paid a 26.8 percent average individual income tax rate, which is more than six times higher than taxpayers in the bottom 50 percent (4.0 percent).

https://taxfoundation.org/summary-of-th ... %20percent).

This doesnt mean anything. Top 1% could pay 90% of their earnings and still earn more than the average guy on minimum wage which is really the only factor that we should consider. Can you imagine if we quantified work by time rather than currency for one second how opinions would change.

[Unthinking Majority]

Insurance companies do this every day.

It is voluntary by private citizens, and they don't force entry into homes.

[Rugoz]

Both can be pretty bad, but leaving efficiency aside it doesn't seem a wealth tax would generate enough revenue anyway.

I'm also thinking about the failures like France. There the tax was an abject failure as the wealthy just moved elsewhere and switched citizenship.

Every tax is bad and leads to avoidance, but people who advocate a capital income tax over a wealth tax must explain why.

Besides, I don't think there's any consensus on the wealth tax in France being an "abject failure" or in fact Macron's abolishment (or rather reduction to a real estate tax) being a success.

[Pants-of-dog]

It is voluntary by private citizens, and they don't force entry into homes.

And?

[wat0n]

Every tax is bad and leads to avoidance, but people who advocate a capital income tax over a wealth tax must explain why.

Besides, I don't think there's any consensus on the wealth tax in France being an "abject failure" or in fact Macron's abolishment (or rather reduction to a real estate tax) being a success.

I haven't seen anyone properly defend the French experience. I'd be happy to be proven wrong.

[Julian658]

This doesnt mean anything. Top 1% could pay 90% of their earnings and still earn more than the average guy on minimum wage which is really the only factor that we should consider. Can you imagine if we quantified work by time rather than currency for one second how opinions would change.

I do not disagree. However, some in the left believe the wealthy evade all taxes.

[Unthinking Majority]

This doesnt mean anything. Top 1% could pay 90% of their earnings and still earn more than the average guy on minimum wage which is really the only factor that we should consider. Can you imagine if we quantified work by time rather than currency for one second how opinions would change.

It's a good thing we don't quantify work by time. Because not all work is equally valuable. A doctor makes more than a walmart cashier because anyone can do what a walmart cashier does, but few people can do what a doctor does. The doctor should be compensated much better than a cashier. I sympathize with some Marxist sentiment, but Marx's labour theory of value is the dumbest thing he probably ever wrote about, because not all work is equally valuable.

The real problem is that some people who own businesses can acquire so much wealth beyond anything they can possibly ever consume, and sometimes do unethical things to do so, while others at the bottom suffer terribly to even get the bare necessities of life despite best efforts. I have no problem allowing rich people to be rich as long as the poor are able to have the bare necessities of survival.

We should greatly admire people who add tremendous value to the economy instead of resenting them, while also empathizing with society's least productive people.

[B0ycey]

We should greatly admire people who add tremendous value to the economy instead of resenting them, while also empathizing with society's least productive people.

How about we don't resent them. How about we just get people to contribute tax according to what they can afford?

Nonetheless you compare a doctor to a supermarket cashier but not a stock broker who earns more but contributes less for society? Turned out during the pandemic supermarket staff became key workers last year I might add in the UK. They worked as bankers stayed home as they were not classed as such last March.

Although you can mention skill levels if you like. It isn't like I am calling for doctors to lose pay anyway. Just that tax should be appropriate. And yes I asked you to imagine time as a key factor over currency. But that was only to highlight the issue that we should consider all factors when considering who contributes what for society not just money. Should a supermarket cashier have to do 2 jobs and overtime just to get by because they couldn't afford education? Seems a BS system to me as their job turned out to be important to keep society functioning I would say.

[MistyTiger]

That is pretty scary stuff. If the great majority of the population that thinks that way takes over the government we are in trouble. Then what?

You did not read my argument. I was saying how the top 1% wants to hog all the money, like claim it all for their selfish purposes and vanity, while normal folk can starve and struggle with overwhelming debt and financial struggles. Is this fair? Should the wealthy just take and take and take? The rich do not want equality. They do not want to share. They do not care about humanity. They love their luxuries and their fat bank accounts too much. They could help the world with their wealth but most of them just sit on it like a mountain. Are you okay with that? Because I am not. Anyone with a heart will want to distribute that to children, families, those struggling with cancer and other terminal illnesses and diseases...that have no known cure. With more funds, so many people can be helped. If I had more wealth, I would not be sitting on it like those dirty, fat wealthy. I would want to help my local community because it's where I live. I feel good when I can give back to others and invest in those who need it. I would not be one who supports those who support insider trading or suspicious hedge funds.

I do not care what Ayn Rand says. Her writing is very long-winded. All I care about is what I see in front of me. I see the top 1% hoarding much of the world's money while children go to sleep hungry, people die from hunger and poor living conditions, families struggle to make payments on homes, people struggle with debt, and so on. I once had a colleague who had his bachelor's degree and Master's degree in accounting, same age as me. But what he said was, "I regret getting my Master's. Debt collectors call my phone all the time." He was deep in debt and he was a single father in his 30s. A credit card company called him at work while I was training him. The largest debt for many are college loans. He will be in debt for another 10 years or so. A wealthy person could create a company that could help young graduates to pay up their loans sooner. He was an honestly nice guy and I could see that his debts were oppressing him. He seemed deflated and so vulnerable in that moment after his phone rang. I think about it now and I want to cry. Back then, I was too stressed out by the job to really fathom the truth behind his words. I did not fathom how much agony he was in.

Rich people are like gluttons. They just want more and more AND MORE. It is never enough for them. The poor and normal folks be damned, in their minds.

[Unthinking Majority]

How about we don't resent them. How about we just get people to contribute tax according to what they can afford?

Nonetheless you compare a doctor to a supermarket cashier but not a stock broker who earns more but contributes less for society? Turned out during the pandemic supermarket staff became key workers last year I might add in the UK. They worked as bankers stayed home as they were not classed as such last March.

Although you can mention skill levels if you like. It isn't like I am calling for doctors to lose pay anyway. Just that tax should be appropriate. And yes I asked you to imagine time as a key factor over currency. But that was only to highlight the issue that we should consider all factors when considering who contributes what for society not just money. Should a supermarket cashier have to do 2 jobs and overtime just to get by because they couldn't afford education? Seems a BS system to me as their job turned out to be important to keep society functioning I would say.

I believe in affordable education and properly taxing the wealthy.

A stock broker is not less valuable than a cashier. Somebody who invests in stocks is valuable to the economy because they provide their (or their clients) earned money to invest in businesses. This investment provides needed cash to companies that allows them to expand, research and innovate, produce more goods, and provide more jobs, thus providing benefits to society.

The vast majority of stock investors aren't very rich. The vast majority of investors don't beat the market.

[Julian658]

double

[Julian658]

You did not read my argument. I was saying how the top 1% wants to hog all the money

Do you realize that wealth is not finite? Most rich people created their own wealth. They did not take that money from the poor. The good news is that the wealth they create can help the poor. Meanwhile, the government does not create wealth. All they can do is redistribute the wealth. Those that received wealth when they did not work for it lose their dignity and become nihilistic.

[MistyTiger]

Do you realize that wealth is not finite? Most rich people created their own wealth. They did not take that money from the poor. The good news is that the wealth they create can help the poor. Meanwhile, the government does not create wealth. All they can do is redistribute the wealth. Those that received wealth when they did not work for it lose their dignity and become nihilistic.

Do you know what I mean by hog the money? They want to possess all the money in the market BY ANY MEANS. I am talking about current activity, not the activity of their ancestors. Some rich would love to create monopolies in the market or control the major commodities in the ENTIRE world. They approve of price gouging, tax cuts for the wealthy while taxes increase for middle and lower class. They approve of insider trading, money laundering, cheating others to get richer, etc.

Those who did not work for the money...some are disabled and really need help. Do you know about people with special needs? No, you do not. They are incapable of working full time and they cannot live on their own. But they still need income to live. Dignity is not something connected to money. Dignity is an innate quality people have, like pride. The poor can have dignity if they know they are honest and they have a clear conscience.

The government can try to break up big businesses so there is more competition in the market, and therefore prices for commodities will decrease. Lower prices are better for the people. And you have more smaller businesses in the world. People lose jobs due to mergers.

[Pants-of-dog]

A stock broker is not less valuable than a cashier.

Covid proved this is not true. The cashier is needed if you want to buy food, while the stock broker is not.

[colliric]

Covid proved this is not true. The cashier is needed if you want to buy food, while the stock broker is not.

Money is needed to buy food.... Stockbroker is useful to help you get it, in addition to a job and other investments.

[Unthinking Majority]

Covid proved this is not true. The cashier is needed if you want to buy food, while the stock broker is not.

Not true at all. Cashier is such a low-skill job that I go to Walmart all the time and put my food through the self-checkout. I don't need a cashier at all. I literally learned to do the cashier's job in 30 seconds. Cashiers are enormously expendable and replaceable. Not true with finance. The best cashier in the world can't compete with Warren Buffett, who is a genius.

If there were no investors the economy would collapse. If investors weren't allowed to de their job during COVID the economy would have been decimated and many more people would have lost their jobs. They are essential workers who can thankfully work from home so were allowed to work throughout COVID.

The Soviets and Maoists thought a bunch of government bureaucrats could do as good a job at allocating capital as private investors. They can't.

[wat0n]

It's also feasible to just get the food delivered to your door nowadays. I don't think some people realize the consequences of what's been going on with automation and digitalization these last 10 years.

[B0ycey]

A stock broker is not less valuable than a cashier. Somebody who invests in stocks is valuable to the economy because they provide their (or their clients) earned money to invest in businesses. This investment provides needed cash to companies that allows them to expand, research and innovate, produce more goods, and provide more jobs, thus providing benefits to society.

Wow. What a load of BS. A stockbroker makes money for their firm. A bank lends money for profit with interest for a company to invest and expand. They are not necessarily exclusive. Wall Street is full of sharks that do nothing useful for society and infact their practices can be bad for society given 2008 and Lehman brothers. The scary thing is that you believe what you wrote despite it being soooooo wrong!

Now compare that to someone who works in a job that feeds you. You can do without excess wealth. You can't do without eating and drinking. They are not the same. One job is actually important for society and the other is not. Yet wages between the two are different. So society should address that if the free market does not. It maybe in taxes. It maybe in subsidies. As long as the system is fair, then people will play along. When it isn't history says there will be a braking point. Believe it or not, the guys in their ivory towers only have their ivory towers because society allows them to keep them. So it is in their self interest to cater to the proles for the proles can take them away.

[late]

Watch the video, or read his book, Price of Inequality. You have the world's best economists literally at your fingertips, and you're still using an antique kook.

Silence is golden...

[colliric]

That's the old system @B0ycey , automation, smartphones and the internet has led most people to do the stockbrokers work sussing out the Charts and whatnot themselves. As a result most major stockbrokers basically just do the trade for you these days. No point ringing you to pressure you to buy shitty stocks any more.

That's why Crypto and Redditors scare the shit out traditional firms because the layperson can basically pump and dump stock(or Crypto) themselves online these days. And look at the DD work done by other collaborators.