Libertarianism isn't exactly Conservatism - Politics Forum.org | PoFo

Wandering the information superhighway, he came upon the last refuge of civilization, PoFo, the only forum on the internet ...

Traditional 'common sense' values and duty to the state.
Forum rules: No one line posts please.
#15193264
Why libertarianism isn't conservatism

There's a lot of overlap between the two, if not exactly the same.

In fact Progressive Liberalism has some overlap with Libertarianism too, although Liberalism seems to mostly have taken a backseat on the Left these days.

Progressive Liberalism seems to be more social liberalism, and so the movement of Libertarianism is less concerned with that and more concerned with the legal component of liberalism. So I would say Libertarianism has much more in common with Conservatism than Progressive Liberalism.

Abortion and immigration seem to be the two main issues that divide conservative Libertarians from progressive Libertarians. Whether the two wings will ever be able to unite into a single political force remains to be seen. There are reasons to be skeptical it can happen.

Ideologically, Libertarianism may be separate from Conservatism, but practically they will have to be closely politically aligned and cooperate.
(even more so than, say, Feminists and Socialists, and we know they cooperate together in the same party even though there might be a little bit of tension and competition)


The Libertarian Party site says this in their platform:

"As Libertarians, we seek a world of liberty: a world in which all individuals are sovereign over their own lives and are not forced to sacrifice their values for the benefit of others.

We believe that respect for individual rights is the essential precondition for a free and prosperous world, that force and fraud must be banished from human relationships, and that only through freedom can peace and prosperity be realized.

Consequently, we defend each person’s right to engage in any activity that is peaceful and honest, and welcome the diversity that freedom brings. The world we seek to build is one where individuals are free to follow their own dreams in their own ways, without interference from government or any authoritarian power."

https://www.lp.org/platform/

Possibly they are just saying that to try to draw in a broader base than just from Conservatives, doing everything possible to try not to alienate those who are aligned further towards the Left and who may not want to have anything to do with any movement affiliated with the Right.
#15193266
Conservatism has all but ceased to exist in the GOP of the American ''Right''. Despite lip service to old Conservative shibboleths it is all pretty much Libertarianism now, with a possible exception made for the Military-Industrial Complex but otherwise pretty much nothing Ayn Rand would not have disapproved of.
#15193280
annatar1914 wrote:Conservatism has all but ceased to exist in the GOP of the American ''Right''. Despite lip service to old Conservative shibboleths it is all pretty much Libertarianism now,

I disagree. If it seems like Libertarianism, much of that may just be reactionism to trends going on on the Left.
Conservatism (or perhaps I should specify American Conservatism) has always had a little streak of Libertarianism.

Different regions of the US tended to have slightly different versions of "Conservatism". The traditional Conservativism of the Deep South (particularly the state of Georgia) was almost downright authoritarian and very punitive.

Conservatism in the UK is also an interesting topic. It has morphed and changed as Conservatism has gone from being rural to urban. I think much of whatever bits of Libertarianism might have used to be there has been lost. Traditional Libertarianism in England was more a product of noble upper class society however, coming out of that frame of mind. The type of rights people of that station in life would have been concerned about. Maybe some of that carried over and trickled down a little bit towards how the unwashed masses should be treated but not very much.

Progressivism initially came out with a Libertarian-like guise, but now almost entirely all those legal freedoms which Progressivism sought have been gained, so Progressivism has since ditched the Libertarian cloak and gone to a more authoritian collectivist mindset.
#15193284
Puffer Fish wrote:



"As Libertarians, we seek a world of liberty: a world in which all individuals are sovereign over their own lives and are not forced to sacrifice their values for the benefit of others.




I would suggest not saying "sovereign citizen" in front of a judge, it annoys them no end..

I'm afraid civilisation is a team sport. A real libertarian would already be in Somalia...
#15193352
@Puffer Fish , you replied to me;


I disagree. If it seems like Libertarianism, much of that may just be reactionism to trends going on on the Left.


What ''Left'' in America is there? If there is truly a political spectrum in America that is honest, one would have Liberalism (today's and yesterday's varieties) on one end, and Libertarianism on the other. This is only obscured by the fact that Libertarians typically call their opponents ''Statists''.



Conservatism (or perhaps I should specify American Conservatism) has always had a little streak of Libertarianism.


I'd say; 'near identity'. Conservatism it's true has often had the tendency towards Libertarianism all right; when an Oligarchy of Aristocrats takes over a State and run it into the ground, like the Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth in the 16th-17th centuries.

Different regions of the US tended to have slightly different versions of "Conservatism". The traditional Conservativism of the Deep South (particularly the state of Georgia) was almost downright authoritarian and very punitive.


Depends on the perspective. Besides, the UR-Guru of Libertarians, Ayn Rand, never favored limited government with regards to dealing with those she considered irrational ''savages''.

Conservatism in the UK is also an interesting topic. It has morphed and changed as Conservatism has gone from being rural to urban. I think much of whatever bits of Libertarianism might have used to be there has been lost. Traditional Libertarianism in England was more a product of noble upper class society however, coming out of that frame of mind. The type of rights people of that station in life would have been concerned about. Maybe some of that carried over and trickled down a little bit towards how the unwashed masses should be treated but not very much.


I just have to go back to my earlier statement about the tendencies of Aristocratic Oligarchies like Carthage and the Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth.

Progressivism initially came out with a Libertarian-like guise, but now almost entirely all those legal freedoms which Progressivism sought have been gained, so Progressivism has since ditched the Libertarian cloak and gone to a more authoritian collectivist mindset.


I disagree. In America, Progressivists have always been what Libertarians would call Statists, and your characterization of them now as ''Authoritarian Collectivist Mindset'' possibly betrays the Libertarian influence on your worldview, too. Consider Progressivists in America were Populists and Nationalists, Statists like Theodore Roosevelt, Woodrow Wilson, William Jennings Bryan, Abraham Lincoln, Francis Bellamy, and so on.

EU is not prepared on nuclear war, but Russia,[…]

It is implausible that the IDF could not or would[…]

Moving on to the next misuse of language that sho[…]

There is no reason to have a state at all unless w[…]