[ingliz]

@wat0n

No, it's...

Sure. Hence the 3,493 or so (estimated) deaths.

[Pants-of-dog]

As far as I know, the Chilean government deliberately hid the amount of people shot to death in 1973.

At least, those dome by right wing cops amd soldiers.

[wat0n]

@wat0n

No, it's...

Sure. Hence the 3,493 or so (estimated) deaths.

No!

The percentages in your own source add up to 99.7% (obviously due to rounding) and they do split non-combat deaths and friendly fire incidents.

[ingliz]

@wat0n

For the most part, friendly fire incidents were not recorded.

Estimates (and that's all they are) vary from a semi-official low of 2% to as high as 20%.

2% looks too low to me.

Americans killing Americans was downplayed in the official numbers.

For example,

Homicides

Fragging - assaulting a superior officer using a fragmentation grenade or other explosive - was surprisingly common during the Vietnam War. The most reliable figure is 730 incidents from 1969-1971, much higher than in U.S. wars before or since.

Anyway, if we use the higher friendly fire estimate, and why not, 27% was the number in the Gulf War...

20% of 5,373 = 1,075 ...

the number is 4,298.

Add the unrecorded homicides, and you are below 4,000.

[wat0n]

@wat0n

For the most part, friendly fire incidents were not recorded.

Estimates (and that's all they are) vary from a semi-official low of 2% to as high as 20%.

2% looks too low to me.

For example,

Fragging - assaulting a superior officer using a fragmentation grenade or other explosive - was surprisingly common during the Vietnam War. The most reliable figure is 730 incidents from 1969-1971, much higher than in U.S. wars before or since.

If we use the high estimate...

20% of 5,373 = 1,075

Most friendly fire deaths involved heavy weaponry - again, there are 398 confirmed deaths by friendly fire using small arms as I quoted earlier.

Also, intentional homicide by soldiers against other soldiers is also a separate statistic, if you want we can count those too.

Besides, if you are going to do that you'll need to remove all accidental gun deaths in the US from the comparison too, which also come from estimates and are included in the gun homicide statistics.

[ingliz]

@wat0n

Suicide at 0.7% looks suspiciously low as well when well-respected sources report large numbers of suicides - 26,000 or more - among Vietnam veterans as early as 1980.


p.s. Sorry for the number of edits in my last post, but the more I dug the worse the official numbers looked when it came to Americans killing Americans in Vietnam.

[wat0n]

@wat0n

Suicide at 0.7% looks suspiciously low as well when well-respected sources report large numbers of suicides - 26,000 or more - among Vietnam veterans as early as 1980.

I don't find it THAT strange, just how long did soldiers spend there? For all we know, there were many who were broken by the war, but just didn't have time to commit suicide while in the theater of operations.

p.s. Sorry for the number of edits in my last post, but the more I dug the worse the official numbers looked when it came to Americans killing Americans in Vietnam.

Even the worst case figure I found was relatively low. E.g. for fragging, I found an estimate of 660 killed (99 of them confirmed in 1969-1972). This is over a total number of dead of 58,000+

[Pants-of-dog]

In absolute numbers, the claim is then correct. If you start to look at it as a percentage of a population at a given time, it depends on the time and how we define the population and the percentage.

In terms of the OP, it is simply an unfortunate tragedy since the murdered fellow was probably safer where he was then if he had been back in the USA.

[Godstud]

America is #1!! They obviously kill more people than Chile! Get real!

USA!
USA!
USA!

[wat0n]

In absolute numbers, the claim is then correct. If you start to look at it as a percentage of a population at a given time, it depends on the time and how we define the population and the percentage.

In terms of the OP, it is simply an unfortunate tragedy since the murdered fellow was probably safer where he was then if he had been back in the USA.

We're discussing rates here. Obviously, a population of 332 million can expect to have a lot more deaths every year than 20 million.

[Pants-of-dog]

And no one explained why rates should be discussed and not absolute numbers.

[wat0n]

Good thing I did.

It's always amusing to see how all too many leftists have trouble with numbers. I think that's why they have declared war on math (and lost).

[ingliz]

trouble with numbers

He should have picked Chicago and the Gulf War to compare.

Iraq:

154 dead by enemy action

700,000 deployed

22 killed per 100,000 deployed (1990)

Chicago:

797 firearm homicides

2.697 million residents

29.6 homicides per 100,000 residents (2021)

[Pants-of-dog]

And now we are at the point of the thread where people claim they already explained something and refuse to do so.

I find threads rapidly become far more boring at this point.

[wat0n]

He should have picked Chicago and the Gulf War to compare.

Iraq:

154 dead by enemy action

700,000 deployed

22 killed per 100,000 deployed (1990)

Chicago:

797 firearm homicides

2.697 million residents

29.6 homicides per 100,000 residents (2021)

If you want we can also compare Malta's gun homicide rate to the 0 US combat deaths in Kosovo

Suffering low casualties is one of the advantages of trying to fulfill your political objectives without trying to topple the enemy's government while enjoying an overwhelming technological superiority. Something Putin seems to have forgotten in Ukraine.

Also, seems like you've given up on the Vietnam comparison?



@Pants-of-dog sounds like we're on the stage in which you're whining now that the Vietnam comparison was shown to be complete nonsense - as it often happens when you run out of arguments.

[Pants-of-dog]

In absolute numbers, the Vietnam claim has been shown to be correct.

[wat0n]

We're not comparing absolute numbers. Even the original claim didn't.

[Pants-of-dog]

I see why some people think the original claim was about rate, but that may not ne the case.

[ingliz]

0

In 2023

homicide: 0

suicide: 1

accidental death: 1

seems like you've given up on the Vietnam comparison?

I've shown you were over-egging the pudding.

What more did you expect me to do? I wasn't arguing the rate was less in Vietnam, only that it was less than you said it was.

[wat0n]

@Pants-of-dog zero evidence, as usual.

But we know playing with guns is dangerous in case you're concerned. Just ask this guy:

In 2023

homicide: 0

suicide: 1

accidental death: 1

We're not even past half this year though.

Malta did have one gun homicide last year, that's more than the number of US soldiers killed in Kosovo. Worse than a war zone!