Project 2025 - Politics Forum.org | PoFo

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By Agent Steel
#15319781
A few friends of mine expressed alarm and fear about a new 180 page conservative proposal called Project 2025. Here is the official website where you can read all about it: https://www.project2025.org/

What's this all about, and why is there such cause for concern? Seems like pretty regular stuff to me. They're just putting forward their views and suggestions about how to help change the country. What's the problem?
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By Pewty
#15319782
I'm not going to read it, but I imagine there would be a God involved.

That's always a problem.
By Rancid
#15319785
It's a heritage foundation thing created by old people (funny no one seems to care about these old people). I've mentioned it in a few other threads, but I think most people are still oblivious to this.

It could effectively ingrain a right wing government in perpetuity, even if a non-Republican president is elected. It basically forces a president (any president) to only be able to do right winged things.

In short, it tries to build an asymmetry in the way the presidency would work. It will give the president the power to do all the authoritarian things Republicans wish for (legislate the bible, roll back civil rights, roll back environmental protections, etc). However, takes away all the power for the sort of things a moderate/left president might do (student debt forgiveness, environmental protection, protect unions, etc.). It seeks to make, for example, a Democrat (or other non-Republican) president a lame duck for the entirety of their term. It will also allow for shutting down the department of education. Fundamentally, it's anti-democratic.

One of the framers of that project has openly called it "The second American Revolution". Also stated something to the effect of "This will be a bloodless revolution, so long as liberals don't get in the way." In other words, they are very militant about this.

Project 2025 makes government elites rulers of the people, not servants of the people.

I think it will be successfully implemented eventually. Even if Trump loses this election. Too many people still don't appreciate the intensity of the ambitions and will of the Christian Nationalist right in America. Too many people still underestimate their aims.

WRT to the asymmetry we see it in play even now. For example, we are accepting to all the lies Trump says (like no one is talking about the mountains of lies he said during the debate). We are also ok with Trump's age (and he has said some weird shit over the last few years too), but we are not ok with Biden's age. That asymmetry is like a super power for the right. They will win because they are good at exploiting it. Everyone else, is too busy fighting each other, rather than uniting against this sort of stuff.
Last edited by Rancid on 07 Jul 2024 20:37, edited 14 times in total.
By Rancid
#15319786
Pewty wrote:I'm not going to read it, but I imagine there would be a God involved.

That's always a problem.


Yes, makes it easier to legislate the bible. It has a christian nationalist angle to it as well. It indeed seeks to turn the US into a White Christian Nationalist state.

You know how Louisianan now requires the ten commandments in every classroom? Project 2025 would make it super easy for the president to mandate that for the entire nation. Once this project is implemented, Republicans will stop being for "states rights" (not that they ever were) since they can shift to forcing things at a federal level.
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By JohnRawls
#15319793
Agent Steel wrote:A few friends of mine expressed alarm and fear about a new 180 page conservative proposal called Project 2025. Here is the official website where you can read all about it: https://www.project2025.org/

What's this all about, and why is there such cause for concern? Seems like pretty regular stuff to me. They're just putting forward their views and suggestions about how to help change the country. What's the problem?


Because it is not for a couple of people in a think tank to decide how US should look like. It is funny that they are doing it at the end of the election or the whole thing will be posted after. May be such a massive project is something that people should vote on as a policy and not a sneaky underhanded way to sort of reveal it almost at the end.

Its like Obama advocating for Obamacare but revealing it 2ish months before the vote with not much details. This looks bigger sort off than Obamacare alone.
By Rancid
#15319819
JohnRawls wrote:
Because it is not for a couple of people in a think tank to decide how US should look like. It is funny that they are doing it at the end of the election or the whole thing will be posted after. May be such a massive project is something that people should vote on as a policy and not a sneaky underhanded way to sort of reveal it almost at the end.

Its like Obama advocating for Obamacare but revealing it 2ish months before the vote with not much details. This looks bigger sort off than Obamacare alone.


This is why project 2025 will be successful. Americans are very accepting of our "betters" deciding how their government should operate. Many aren't even questioning as the OP has shown.
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By JohnRawls
#15319840
Rancid wrote:This is why project 2025 will be successful. Americans are very accepting of our "betters" deciding how their government should operate. Many aren't even questioning as the OP has shown.


Kinda Ironic, considering MAGAs are yapping about the "Deep State". Isn't this like "deep state" 101 Bildenberg 9/11 inside job sort of way of doing it?
By Rancid
#15319843
JohnRawls wrote:
Kinda Ironic, considering MAGAs are yapping about the "Deep State". Isn't this like "deep state" 101 Bildenberg 9/11 inside job sort of way of doing it?


Every accusation from MAGA, is an admission of their own intentions.

I was avoiding saying it on purpose, but since you brought it up. Yes, correct, project 2025 is about building up their own far right deep state, and cementing it in a way that even if a non-conservative were elected, they would be completely hamstrung by the laws and (corrupt) supreme court to do anything about it. Even if the will of the people demands that change.
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By JohnRawls
#15319849
Rancid wrote:Every accusation from MAGA, is an admission of their own intentions.

I was avoiding saying it on purpose, but since you brought it up. Yes, correct, project 2025 is about building up their own far right deep state, and cementing it in a way that even if a non-conservative were elected, they would be completely hamstrung by the laws and (corrupt) supreme court to do anything about it. Even if the will of the people demands that change.


Good then you are getting it. I was worried.
By Istanbuller
#15319851
JohnRawls wrote:Kinda Ironic, considering MAGAs are yapping about the "Deep State". Isn't this like "deep state" 101 Bildenberg 9/11 inside job sort of way of doing it?

No. You get things mistaken. That is not the definition of deep state.

It is us (Muslims) who claim that 9/11 was an American insider job to blame it on us.

Deep state is an illegal organization which hold enough army and police power to oust an elected government.
By Agent Steel
#15319860
Rancid wrote:It basically forces a president (any president) to only be able to do right winged things.


Sounds good to me. Why is this a bad thing?
By Rancid
#15319862
Agent Steel wrote:Sounds good to me. Why is this a bad thing?


All good then. All we need is the bible anyway. Fuck clean air, fuck clean water, and fuck education (to start).

Perhaps we do need all of this destroyed so that people realize how stupid it is to get rid of things like environmental protections.

It's kind of like the vaccines. They have been so effective over the decades, that people take for granted how dramatically they have improved quality of live for everyone. Then some movement to get rid of them all takes hold. We could do the same with just about everything. Why not.


Istanbuller wrote:Deep state is an illegal organization which hold enough army and police power to oust an elected government.


This project doesn't make the deep state go away. So you want to replace one illegal organization with another?
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By Wellsy
#15319870
Will checks and balances save America with a stacked supreme court, a divided congress and a populist president?

Are such initiatives untenable because of US institutions or have they been thoroughly weakened across the board?
Christian Nationalism seems well financed even if fringe for much of the population, but how representative is the will of the population in congress and more?
It seems hyperbolic to see such an initiative as possible, to use government to destroy and constrain ‘big government’, but what is impossible years ago is now so.
By wat0n
#15319873
They cannot implement this, federally at least, without controlling Congress. And part of this project goes against the 1st Amendment.

So I can imagine it being implemented in conservative states, possibly without that much SCOTUS intervention beyond rejecting blatant constitutional violations.
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By Wellsy
#15319907
I don’t trust governments to resist fascism too much with the historical precedent.

https://www.marxists.org/archive/trotsky/germany/1933/330223.htm
The Social Democrats consider the democratic constitution to be above the class struggle. For us, the class struggle is above the democratic constitution. Can it be that the experience undergone by postwar Germany has passed without leaving a trace, just as the experiences undergone during the war? The November Revolution brought the Social Democracy to power. The Social Democracy spurred the powerful movement of the masses along the road of “right” and the “constitution.” The whole political life which followed in Germany evolved on the bases and within the framework of the Weimar Republic.
The results are at hand: bourgeois democracy transforms itself legally, pacifically, into a fascist dictatorship. The secret is simple enough: bourgeois democracy and fascist dictatorship are the instruments of one and the same class, the exploiters. It is absolutely impossible to prevent the replacement of one instrument by the other by appealing to the Constitution, the Supreme Court at Leipzig, new elections, etc. What is necessary is to mobilize the revolutionary forces of the proletariat. Constitutional fetishism brings the best aid to fascism. Today this is no longer a prognostication, a theoretical affirmation, but the living reality. I ask you, Social Democratic worker: if the Weimar democracy blazed the trail for the fascist dictatorship, how can one expect it to blaze the trail for socialism?

At the end of the day, the constitution is a document which can be ignored and we trust in the norms of those within the US institutions to defend its principles. But the trustworthiness is suspect now.
With gerrymandering and the like, there is a trajectory for the Republicans to gain a lot if effective resistance occurs, which may well occur and is occuring, in civil society. It seems to be risky times regardless.
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By Potemkin
#15319911
Wellsy wrote:I don’t trust governments to resist fascism too much with the historical precedent.

https://www.marxists.org/archive/trotsky/germany/1933/330223.htm

At the end of the day, the constitution is a document which can be ignored and we trust in the norms of those within the US institutions to defend its principles. But the trustworthiness is suspect now.
With gerrymandering and the like, there is a trajectory for the Republicans to gain a lot if effective resistance occurs, which may well occur and is occuring, in civil society. It seems to be risky times regardless.

So long as the working people never look beyond the horizon of bourgeois right, so long as they regard the constitutional order as ‘transcending’ the class struggle, then they will never be able to shake off the exploitation and oppression imposed on them by their class enemies, as Trotsky pointed out. And if democracy is no longer delivering what the bourgeoisie want from it, it can easily be dismantled and replaced by a more ‘effective’ constitutional order. For them, the constitutional order ‘transcends’ the class struggle indeed.
By wat0n
#15319915
Wellsy wrote:I don’t trust governments to resist fascism too much with the historical precedent.

https://www.marxists.org/archive/trotsky/germany/1933/330223.htm

At the end of the day, the constitution is a document which can be ignored and we trust in the norms of those within the US institutions to defend its principles. But the trustworthiness is suspect now.
With gerrymandering and the like, there is a trajectory for the Republicans to gain a lot if effective resistance occurs, which may well occur and is occuring, in civil society. It seems to be risky times regardless.


No, there's not. Republicans cannot gerrymander states they do not already govern.

Both parties play that gerrymandering game.
By Istanbuller
#15319923
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