[Cheesecake_Marmalade]

Popular sentiment seems to be that race doesn't exist, that IQ is a fabrication, and that all people are perfectly, mathematically, geometrically the same in every way and in every capacity. Any differences that do exist are caused by white wickedness.

Popular sentiment is always a few years behind scientific development.

I think we need to put such ridiculous "THERE IS NO RACE" nonsense into perspective. Think of what just happened 40 years ago. The civil rights movement. Even at the tail end of the movement, there was plenty of racism left. The eighties and nineties were some pretty hard times to be black. So the liberals invented racial egalitarianism to make it seem like anthropologists thought race was only related to melanin. A ridiculous assertion, because brain size is measurably different, health risks are different, IQs are different, testosterone is different, plenty of things are different. The sentiment is purely political.

All people are equal. This is because all humans have qualities that no other human being can really judge the utility of magnificance of. To try to judge humans on the basis of value is to set yourself up as some kind of God. Tyrants are always doing this.

Have you ever been beaten up by a been in a classroom or set out into the real world? The human condition shows us that people aren't equal. People may have different talents and are good at different things, but that doesn't necessarily mean those talents are all useful. I would never compare myself to Oscar Wilde, because that guy was way funnier and a way better writer than me. If we were "equal", I wouldn't be able to look up to him. He would just be some guy.

[sploop!]

No, no, no. It's the other way round.

We invented race because we needed an excuse to turn the people we don't know into 'Others'. Human differences are a bit like the rainbow. There's Ultra-violet at one end and Infra-red at the other. In between there is an infinite range of colour which we somehow categorise into the 7 colours of the rainbow. But those 7 colours are a fiction. Of course they are. Did you know that in some languages, Welsh being an example, some colours are defined completely differently to the way we commonly view them? The colour glas for example, represents blue/green/grey/silver.

Race is exactly the same. There are an infinite number of subtle variations between us all with a language overlay which decides who belongs where. Who is to say that the language we have overlaid onto variation is the correct one?

Yes, there are differences between us, but they have nothing to do with biology and everything to do with society.

[ElDiabloBlanco]

Yes, there are differences between us, but they have nothing to do with biology and everything to do with society.

Because everyone knows science is just a racist, fascist conspiracy to keep the black man down.

[sploop!]

Science isn't value-free.

[ElDiabloBlanco]

Science isn't value-free.

So what's your argument? Most scientists are evil racists, and thus science should be ignored? Science has an institutional racist bias? What?

[boru]

Science isn't value-free.

That's the problem, it should be.

The issue is that the term race isn't really a scientific one, ethnicity is (much) closer to science than any term correlated with race. While we can look back at our history of evolution and see that different species of our ancestors and those related to them lived during the same time, it wouldn't be far off to assume the same today. Oddly enough, this is not the case and there is an overwhelming amount of science to back that up.

Hating people based on their ethnic origin is called racism, while hating on people because of where they're born is called...something else about equally as dumb.

When people say "I don't like Americans" or "I can't stand Nigerians" they usually aren't referring to any particular ethnic group of people, just a sense of political unity they perceive coming from that country.

The reason that people outside the U.S. (and inside as well) hate it is mostly because of whatever they experience in media. It's very easy to foster a certain idea of an entire group of people by just being exposed to a sliver of their culture. The more people find out about others, the more they are seen to be siblings going through the same struggle.

[sploop!]

ElDiabloBlanco: So what's your argument? Most scientists are evil racists, and thus science should be ignored? Science has an institutional racist bias? What?

Science only answers the questions that are asked. It tells us nothing about the things we don't use it to investigate, and it only ever answers the questions we haven't asked by accident. You can surely see that this creates an immediate bias, even if that bias is not easily explored? Science depends on agreement about the terminology and definitions used - rarely, if ever are the definitions inherent in the thing being observed. And scientific observation depends on the tools available to us. We can only investigate that which we can see. I'm not saying there is a purpose to the values of science, merely that it is very difficult to imagine a science where some sort of created value system is not in place.

boru: I agree with you that 'Race' is not a scientific term. Ethnicity, as a subset of genetics (I guess) is. And the science of ethnicity suggests that differences in our species related to genetics is really very, very minor. The idea that there are distinct ethnic groups in the modern world is generally not really supported by the investigations made into it. We're mongrels, pretty well all of us.

To pull myself back on post, I have to say that despite the constant accusations that I make judgements based on a concept I don't even believe in (race), I actually hate Israel for the behaviour of the administrations, rather than for the people. I don't have any reason to hate Israelis for their genetics, or the labels they give themselves! And I despise America for allowing itself to be so evil. Again, nothing to do with the people.

[ElDiabloBlanco]

The issue is that the term race isn't really a scientific one, ethnicity is (much) closer to science than any term correlated with race.

Care to explain genetic haplotypes, then?

I agree with you that 'Race' is not a scientific term. Ethnicity, as a subset of genetics (I guess) is. And the science of ethnicity suggests that differences in our species related to genetics is really very, very minor.

First of all, ethnicity has nothing to do with genetics. Ethnicity is about historical and cultural identity.

Secondly, no, the genetic differences in our species are really not that minor, comparatively. This is due to human adaptation. Or are you a creationist?

[boru]

Do you mean haplogroups? If you have some scientific insights (references) to share with us, I'd love to read them. I'm nerdy like that.

[sploop!]

Secondly, no, the genetic differences in our species are really not that minor, comparatively. This is due to human adaptation. Or are you a creationist?

Perhaps my use of English was imprecise? What I am saying is that it is very difficult, if not impossible to predict the 'race' of an individual by means of genetics. There are plenty of fairly minor differences in the genetics of individuals which differentiate one person from another, but there are very few instances where it is possible to pick out a gene or set of genes from a genome and say 'This person is X race'.

Race really doesn't exist in any sensibly objective way.

However your point about Ethnicity is absolutely correct. I dunno what I was thinking.

[boru]

Since when did thousands of years of interbreeding have nothing to do with genetics?

[NoRapture]

Since when did thousands of years of interbreeding have nothing to do with genetics?

Genetics, race, all of it is irrelevant and obsolete in the 21st Century. Scientifically, clinically, medically they are playing a more and more important role. Socially they need to be of zero consequence if humanity is to survive. When race and religion are dragged into the center of the public square it is always a guaranteed detriment to whatever government allows it.

[ElDiabloBlanco]

Since when did thousands of years of interbreeding have nothing to do with genetics?

Ethnicity, unlike race, is not based around genetics, but around identity. Generally it's a subset of a race, but not always, as with "American" or "Brazilian."

What I am saying is that it is very difficult, if not impossible to predict the 'race' of an individual by means of genetics.

There are some weird cases where you have a white dude with O, the typical Asian haplogroup, but all that shows is past racemixing, not that race does not exist. All it does is debunk the one drop rule, which I don't think any sensible person supports.

Race really doesn't exist in any sensibly objective way.

You're just saying that without any evidence. Kind of funny, almost like a mantra. Keep going, if you repeat it enough, it'll come true!

Denial of race is, in essence, denial of evolution. People have adapted to the areas in which they lived. There you go, that's race. If you accept there are genetic and physical differences, that vary based on individual population groups, guess what buddy? You accept that race exists, as that is what race is.

Modern science says humans are about 15% different, genetically. People who try to prove race does not exist use this as evidence. But since when was 15% statistically unimportant? Genes for phenotype (especially facial), as well as genes affecting cognitive functions, exist in that 15%.

Now, there are racially MIXED groups, like Yemeni Arabs (originally like today's Saudis, but they mixed with their neighbors to the south a wee bit too much). This causes some confusion among people who understand genetics without understanding history. But the point remains that there are genetic differences. Ergo, there is race. A = A, 2 + 2 = 4.

Socially they need to be of zero consequence if humanity is to survive.

How? Humanity has gone this far recognizing racial distinctions, how does denying reality make humanity advance even further, or, as you say, stop humanity from imminent destruction?

[NoRapture]

How? Humanity has gone this far recognizing racial distinctions, how does denying reality make humanity advance even further, or, as you say, stop humanity from imminent destruction?

Humanity has survived the Black Plague and the common cold too. But we can no longer afford to suffer them to the degree we once did, before they were recognized for what they were. Disease. Let the vaccinating begin.

[ElDiabloBlanco]

Disease.

So belief in race is a disease, hm? Again, care to address why anthropological phenotypes exist? Genetic haplogroups conform to different races? Differences in testosterone and IQ have been proven? Brain size is different?

Denial of reality is the true disease.

By the way, I find it interesting how the man in your avatar is Malcolm X, a man I respect greatly. A man who promoted black nationalism, who wanted to preserve his own people. A man who believed race was created by Allah, and who wanted blacks to mix with blacks, whites with whites, to preserve distinct phenotype, identity, and culture.

[NoRapture]

By the way, I find it interesting how the man in your avatar is Malcolm X, a man I respect greatly.

The man in my avatar is Miles Davis. And I already said I believe in race and genetics within the context of science and medicine. As a social construct I consider it irrelevant and, yes, a disease that serves no other purpose than promoting hatred, fear, and discrimination.

[ElDiabloBlanco]

The man in my avatar is Miles Davis.

My bad, thought it was ol' Malcolm. Never cared much for jazz music, personally.

And I already said I believe in race and genetics within the context of science and medicine. As a social construct I consider it irrelevant and, yes, a disease that serves no other purpose than promoting hatred, fear, and discrimination.

You've produced no evidence to substantiate the idea that it is a social construct. Orange and I have shown evidence that it isn't.

[boru]

These are not mutually exclusive ideas. The concept of race can be scientific or social. If you don't see the latter for yourself then you need to get out more.

[NoRapture]

The concept of race can be scientific or social. If you don't see the latter for yourself then you need to get out more.

I'm not implying it doesn't exist on a social basis at all. I'm saying it exists as nothing more than racism and not much else.

[sploop!]

Denial of race is, in essence, denial of evolution. People have adapted to the areas in which they lived. There you go, that's race. If you accept there are genetic and physical differences, that vary based on individual population groups, guess what buddy? You accept that race exists, as that is what race is.

This is right. Many thousands of years ago, parts of humanity evolved in different ways by virtue of their isolation, and, most likely in response to environmental factors. Populations with differences and similarities may well have arisen.

Modern science says humans are about 15% different, genetically. People who try to prove race does not exist use this as evidence. But since when was 15% statistically unimportant? Genes for phenotype (especially facial), as well as genes affecting cognitive functions, exist in that 15%.

This is wrong. Within the genus 'homo', genetic difference of less than 1% is to be found. We are, all of us, at least 99.5% similar to any one else on the planet. And (this is where it gets interesting), the genetic difference between for example myself - a white Englishman and someone from Africa might be smaller than the difference between myself and my white English next-door neighbour. Furthermore, if you were given a bunch of blood samples from 100 people from anywhere on the planet and challenged to sort them by 'race', you wouldn't have a hope in hell, no matter how good your equipment.

Why is this? Because regardless of whether humanity developed different adaptations to different areas thousands of years ago, now and for the last few thousand years, there has been so much mixing and movement in populations that every single one of us, with very few exceptions, may have genetic markers that connect our ancestry to four or five of those deep-historical populations.