Is homosexuality natural? - Page 3 - Politics Forum.org | PoFo

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#14652258
noemon wrote:Are you really putting the blame squarely on some other scapegoat?

Not really. I'm arguing that civilization is unnatural, and this profoundly damages our natural instinctive responses to many situations.
Blaming "the gays" or "the feminists" is a form of scapegoating. People who have been damaged by society are not "the problem." The society that damages is the problem, and that is virtually all societies. The more artificial, the worse the damage.



I don't want to be funny but fertility is dying because people are not having babies
This is a definition, and not an explanation.


and that is a willful & conscious choice they make, unless you want to tell me that modern society has stolen your agency.
That's the whole idea of society and of technology: to short-circuit the agency of billions of humans so that they can be herded towards something "rich and exiting" for a handful of narcissists.

And it is not just about not having babies it is also about the stance of people in life which is to convince other people not to have babies either, directly and indirectly.
All we are trained to care about is income maximumizing. Children are used mainly to build a retirement fund and to gain social respectability. The human part of human existence has been removed by the bosses, and the zoo that man-in-society is forced to live in is both indignant and unnatural.
#14657052
Dystopian Darkness wrote:Argument in favour - Sexual orientation and homosexuality are not a choice and therefore can be considered biologically natural, not to mention it is easily observed in nature among other non-human species

Argument against - Homosexuality is incompatible with procreation and is therefore biologically unnatural; even if people don't have a choice (the same way someone would argue that being transgender is unnatural)


I'm always confused at this - I can see both sides have a point, but I don't even understand what natural means here - Does it mean merely passing our genes to the next generation? Or does it mean behaviour that is inherent to us and not artificially or socially constructed?
I think biologically homosexuality is natural, but obviously it constitutes exceptional uncommon behaviour that doesn't allow for procreation, so I don't know.
Opinions? This is not a discussion about gay marriage

'Homosexual' behavior in animals isn't mainly Habituated, Unlike in Humans, it's part of a (generally short) Repertoire of behavior that is substantially Heterosexual.
It is Not analogous to the term as applied to humans.
Just because, ie, a teenage monkey will hump anything, doesn't means he's homosexual in the human sense.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homosexua ... in_animals

[...] According to Bruce Bagemihl, "the animal kingdom [does] it with much greater sexual diversity – including homosexual, bisexual and nonreproductive sex – than the scientific community and society at large have previously been willing to accept."[5] Bagemihl adds, however, that this is "necessarily an account of human interpretations of these phenomena".[6]

Simon Levay introduced the further caveat that "[a]lthough homosexual behavior is very common in the animal world, it seems to be very Uncommon that individual animals have a Long-lasting Predisposition to engage in such behavior to the exclusion of heterosexual activities.
Thus, a homosexual orientation, IF one can speak of such thing in animals, seems to be a Rarity."
[7]
[........]
Applying the term homosexual to animals

The term homosexual was coined by Karl-Maria Kertbeny in 1868 to describe same-sex sexual attraction and sexual behavior in humans.[13]
Its use in animal studies has been Controversial for two main reasons: animal sexuality and motivating factors have been and remain poorly understood, and the term has strong cultural implications in western society that are IRRELEVANT for species other than humans.[14] Thus homosexual behavior has been given a number of terms over the years. When describing animals, the term homosexual is preferred over gay, lesbian, and other terms Currently in use, as these are seen as even more bound to human homosexuality.[15]

Animal preference and motivation is always inferred from behavior. In wild animals, researchers will as a rule not be able to map the entire life of an individual, and must infer from frequency of single observations of behavior. The correct usage of the term homosexual is that an animal exhibits homosexual behavior or even same-sex sexual behavior; however, this article conforms to the usage by modern research,[15][16][17][18][19] applying the term homosexuality to all sexual behavior (copulation, genital stimulation, mating games and sexual display behavior) between animals of the same sex. In most instances, it is presumed that the homosexual behavior is but Part of the animal's overall sexual behavioral repertoire, making the animal "bisexual" rather than "homosexual" as the terms are commonly understood in humans,[18] but cases of homosexual preference and exclusive homosexual pairs are known.[20]
[.......]

I would further add that it's Unnatural to have a sexual desire that is contrary to how your organs are designed: for heterosexual sex.
If you also want to call birth defects 'natural' just because they occur with regularity.. go right ahead.
+

EDIT: Note below the Empty one-line ad hom of Godstud, not tackling ANYTHING I Posted.
!ron!cally calling my far more elaborated (with citation) post 'nothing' but 'opinion.'
Last edited by abu afak on 03 Mar 2016 03:06, edited 10 times in total.
#14657054
abu afak wrote:I would further add that it's Unnatural to have a sexual desire that is contrary to how your organs are designed: for heterosexual sex.
That's simply your uneducated, homophobic opinion, and nothing else.
#14657061
Is it also unnatural to use my fingers to click buttons and tap keys in order to write this message? Am I destined to burn in hell fire for using by body in a manner the lord our designer didn't anticipate? Is it unnatural to kiss on the mouth since they are exclusively licensed for eating and grunting? Is it unnatural to wear clothing, cook food, live indoors, perform surgery, develop medicine, live in civilisation?

Is it unnatural for an insect to use it's wings to attain flight since they initially developed to provide a way to absorb heat from the sun?
#14657105
Humans are a product of the natural world. Some humans are homosexual, a fact that has been true for millennia. This, alone, is enough to conclude that homosexuality is natural.
#14657112
I don't want to be funny but fertility is dying because people are not having babies and that is a willful & conscious choice they make,
unless you want to tell me that modern society has stolen your agency. And it is not just about not having babies it is also about the stance of people in life which is to convince other people not to have babies either, directly and indirectly. [/quote]

I don't think this is true. The world population is growing rapidly. The fertility issue you mention is only significant within certain demographics. All-in-all there are way to many people as it is.
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