Culture & Assimilation - Page 3 - Politics Forum.org | PoFo

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#14733358
Albert wrote:Exactly, see you when you actually reside in Canada.
I am Canadian wherever I may live. I shall never give up my Canadian citizenship. You should, however. You don't converse like one.

All my money, investments, etc., are in Canada. I probably contribute more, and pay more taxes, than you do, so maybe you should just engage in prolonged silence, you wannabe Canuck!

Good Canadians are not racists. Read whatever you want into that.
Last edited by Godstud on 06 Nov 2016 14:31, edited 3 times in total.
#14733359
The Greek flag is clearly meant to show the Christianity of Greece as a lot of Euro-flags do so as well, but if a Muslim wants to bear it, then the flag subdues the person carrying it and not the other way around like for example Frollein claimed, like when a foreign power removes it for example. That is also true traditionally.
#14733362
noemon wrote:The Greek flag is clearly meant to show the Christianity of Greece as a lot of Euro-flags do so as well, but if a Muslim wants to bear it, then the flag subdues the person carrying it and not the other way around like for example Frollein claimed, like when a foreign power removes it for example. That is also true traditionally.
That is how you get ethnic tensions. A Muslim guy looking at this might begin to feel cucked. Cause his imam said Christians are heritics and sinners. Yet here he sees a Muslim girl holding a Christian flag. Next thing you know he is strapping on a bomb to himself.

Noemon, it seems you want both of two world. You want bohemian progressive liberalism, but you also want to keep national roots. The way things are conducted both of these things are being lost right now, and things are a complete mess. For why not just have a city or two that is cosmopolitan but the rest of the country preserved in homogeneity? Instead with current levels of immigration this have been turned into a mess, especially with this bizarre multicultural paradise idealism.


Godstud wrote:I am Canadian wherever I may live. I shall never give up my Canadian citizenship. You should, however. You don't converse like one.

All my money, investments, etc., are in Canada. I probably contribute more, and pay more taxes, than you do, so maybe you should just engage in prolonged silence, you wannabe Canuck!

Good Canadians are not racists. Read whatever you want into that.
Whatever I'm planning to move to America anyways, Canada disagrees with me for some reason. I will probably leave you with my unpaid student debt though, but no worries you will pay that off with your high taxes.
Last edited by Albert on 06 Nov 2016 15:05, edited 2 times in total.
#14733363
Albert it is possible to have limited immigration without any problems. When the immigrants wave the flag of the nation in which they have settled should we not applaud this? It is not an invitation to the open borders insansity that most of the Western world has embraced since the end of WWII.

If anything it is a sign of friendship and goodwill. It should not be turned down.
Last edited by Political Interest on 06 Nov 2016 14:52, edited 2 times in total.
#14733364
noemon wrote:What's the issue with the hijab,


Incidentally, I quoted the Muslims' reasoning behind that dress code in this very thread, a few pages back:

Cologne and the Sharia

But back to the crime of Cologne. First of all, the women are to blame, as per "Muslim Star". This is entirely in line with the Islamic teachings. Sura 33 verse 59 states: "O Prophet, tell your wives and your daughters and the women of the believers to bring down over themselves [part] of their outer garments. That is more suitable that they will be known and not be abused."

In plain English, this commandment for wearing a headscarf (which already occupied the Federal Constitutional Court, where the judges even factored in Sura 24, verse 31 in addition to the above sura) means: If a woman does not dress "morally," she is responsible for abuse. The man, comparable to a lion on the hunt for antelope, is allowed then to pounce on them as on prey. No wonder, then, that on New Year's Eve so much "stirred" in the lions from North Africa.


This thing is a declaration of virtue (read: female "chastity"), and its absence is a declaration of availability. Since European women don't cover her hair, they are sluts and asking to be raped. Not like the "good" Muslim women who cover their hair. :roll: This attitude isn't compatible with European values of feminist self-determination, so parading around wearing a hijab is a political statement, just like parading around with a swastika is. I guess if a young German wearing a swastika band around his arm would wave your flag around, you wouldn't applaud him for being so integrated into Greek culture, right?
#14733368
Albert wrote:That is how you get ethnic tensions. A Muslim guy looking at this might begin to feel cucked. Cause his imam said Christians are heritics and sinners. Yet here he sees a Muslim girl holding a Christian flag. Next thing you know he is strapping on a bomb to himself.

Noemon, it seems you want both of two world. You want bohemian progressive liberalism, but you also want to keep national roots. The way things are conducted bother of these things will be lost. For why not just have a city or two that is cosmopolitan but the rest of the country preserved in homogeneity? Instead with current levels of immigration this have been turned into a mess, especially with this bizarre multicultural paradise idealism.


Only Athens & Thessalonike are multi-culti, though Bulgarians, Serbians, Armenians, Albanians and Romanians live everywhere even in small villages, islands or whatever these people are not really a foreign kulti and are not operating under a different culture, state, or even gangs, and that is quite obvious to all concerned. "Alien" people like Pakistanis and Africans do not go outside Athens because in the bottom line the small places have no work and there is a fear-factor as well, larger fear than possible economic benefits so does not make sense in their scales of pros and cons and that in my view is a problem because their sheer numbers in Athens are overwhelming. I think it would be better if they spread out a bit, and it would be good for small local economies as well.


I want to deal with this issue with the least possible cost for all concerned, I am a utilitarian at heart I want to deal with it without physically hurting people and their families. That's all and we simply need better organisation on our Greek part to deal with these people properly and legally. We also owe it to civilisation and our good name to treat people humanly and not like animals/livestock like some posters in here called other people.
#14733370
Political Interest wrote:Albert it is possible to have limited immigration without any problems. When the immigrants wave the flag of the nation in which they have settled should we not applaud this? It is not an invitation to the open borders insansity that most of the Western world has embraced since the end of WWII.

If anything it is a sign of friendship and goodwill. It should not be turned down.
Yes I believe immigration can be conducted correctly. In fact I support few cities in a country to have significant levels of immigration to give it a cosmopolitan life. I believe this can be conducted by making sure migrants that do come integrate well. And then if wish to stay, that they eventually assimilate.

You right, in principle her flag waving has no ill intent. You just have to see in context it has been done and how neomon perceives this, to whom my responses were directed.

I'm also very upset emotionally over migration and what it has done to Europe in general. I have been trying to not get so worked up over it recently and keep more level headed. But the anger might still get best of reason.
#14733374
noemon wrote:Only Athens & Thessalonike are multi-culti, though Bulgarians, Serbians, Armenians, Albanians and Romanians live everywhere even in small villages, islands or whatever these people are not really a foreign kulti and are not operating under a different culture, state, or even gangs, and that is quite obvious to all concerned. "Alien" people like Pakistanis and Africans do not go outside Athens because in the bottom line the small places have no work and there is a fear-factor as well, larger fear than possible economic benefits so does not make sense in their scales of pros and cons and that in my view is a problem because their sheer numbers in Athens are overwhelming. I think it would be better if they spread out a bit, and it would be good for small local economies as well.


I want to deal with this issue with the least possible cost for all concerned, I am a utilitarian at heart I want to deal with it without physically hurting people and their families. That's all and we simply need better organisation on our Greek part to deal with these people properly and legally. We also owe it to civilisation and our good name to treat people humanly and not like animals/livestock like some posters in here called other people.
Sometimes there is no sweet medicine. The problem was created when such open border immigration began. Now at least measures like forced deportion are need to fix the issues and start afresh. It is not nice, I do not like it either as, as good people will have to go through ordeal, but what can you do? On other hand, they traveled to Europe, I'm sure it is ultimately not fatal for them to emigrate back and start a new life back at their land of origin.
#14733376
Frollein wrote:Incidentally, I quoted the Muslims' reasoning behind that dress code in this very thread, a few pages back:
This thing is a declaration of virtue (read: female "chastity"), and its absence is a declaration of availability. Since European women don't cover her hair, they are sluts and asking to be raped. Not like the "good" Muslim women who cover their hair. :roll: This attitude isn't compatible with European values of feminist self-determination, so parading around wearing a hijab is a political statement, just like parading around with a swastika is. I guess if a young German wearing a swastika band around his arm would wave your flag around, you wouldn't applaud him for being so integrated into Greek culture, right?


The swastika I believe is banned but if it were not banned, I would not mind, no. Also the hijab is a cultural artefact more than it is political though. You are taught it from your parents and you carry it as a sign of your household upbringing.
#14733380
Albert wrote:Sometimes there is no sweet medicine. The problem was created when such open border immigration began. Now at least measures like forced deportion are need to fix the issues and start afresh. It is not nice, I do not like it either as, as good people will have to go through ordeal, but what can you do? On other hand, they traveled to Europe, I'm sure it is ultimately not fatal for them to emigrate back and start a new life back at their land of origin.


This is the policy currently active. Illegal immigrants are deported back from whence they came. The problem is that very few are actually being deported not because there is a policy of keeping them but because the process is difficult and takes time and in the meantime you need to keep them somewhere where you can find them and lastly it requires the official consent of the country taking them back in. You say this as if it's not the EU policy but it actually is.
#14733383
noemon wrote:The swastika I believe is banned but if it were not banned, I would not mind, no. Also the hijab is a cultural artefact more than it is political though. You are taught it from your parents and you carry it as a sign of your household upbringing.


So you see the hijab as a symbol of an ideological mindset, just as the swastika is. What I don't understand is why you see one symbol as problematic, but not the other: both ideologies kill gays and jews and force women into a patriarchal system that denies them self-determination. Both are violent, expansive, and intolerant of other cultures, seeking to either conquer or destroy them.

That one is illegal and the other not only speaks for the same cognitive dissonance existing among our left-liberal "elites."
#14733385
Frollein wrote:
So you see the hijab as a symbol of an ideological mindset, just as the swastika is. What I don't understand is why you see one symbol as problematic, but not the other: both ideologies kill gays and jews and force women into a patriarchal system that denies them self-determination. Both are violently expansive. That one is illegal and the other not only speaks for the same cognitive dissonance existing among our left-liberal "elites."

To be fair I remember catholics wearing some form of hijab, and hijab is not at all part of Islam, all Mohammad said was women dress modesty.
#14733387
The one lost a war after murdering several million of people, the other is merely to cover your hair something that your grandmother did too. But regardless I don't see an issue with either of them personally. There is a reason why Nazi symbols are banned, however and I don't think it wise to argue otherwise.
#14733389
The one lost a war, the other is currently bringing it to Europe. What is your argument again?

Tewodros, the hijab has become the symbol of Islam, or do you see any woman in Saudia Arabia or Iran etc. without one on the streets? And Muslim women in Europe have begun wearing it as an ideological statement, declaring their support of Islam's ideological demands - twenty years ago, you didn't see young girls with it, only the fat old grannies.
#14733395
So you see the hijab as a symbol of an ideological mindset, just as the swastika is. What I don't understand is why you see one symbol as problematic, but not the other: both ideologies kill gays and jews and force women into a patriarchal system that denies them self-determination. Both are violent, expansive, and intolerant of other cultures, seeking to either conquer or destroy them.

That one is illegal and the other not only speaks for the same cognitive dissonance existing among our left-liberal "elites."

The dividing line between culture and ideology is an exceedingly fine one, Frollein, as Roland Barthes pointed out in his book Mythologies. In a certain sense, everything is ideological, and the traditional culture of a given society is ideological to its root - a culture, after all, is a certain set of values. To abandon those values is to abandon that culture. This, in fact, is what 'assimilation' means - it means abandoning one's traditional culture in favour of the culture of one's host nation. The various waves of immigrants into America did this, and I think we can all see the deplorable consequences in the so-called American 'culture'. The Americans, for the most part, are a people without a sense of history and without any deep sense of values beyond a slavish devotion to economic market forces. A snake-oil salesman like Donald Trump thrives in that sort of self-alienated cultural environment. In the face of this, can we really blame the Islamic immigrants for wanting to hold on to their own traditional cultural values? They have no intention of selling their birthright for a mess of pottage.
#14733398
The Americans did bring a culture with them - yours ;) . They also didn't assimilate to the culture of their host - they conquered and erased it. No matter if I can theoretically "understand" that the Muslims would like to import their regressive, violent, dictatorial culture, the practical answer is to oppose them and our current regimes who would submit to them out of a pathological sense of guilt and self-loathing. If even self-declared nationalists like noemon can suddenly applaud Muslims parading their flag around, I have to wonder if the brain decay hasn't reached irreversible dimensions now, though.
#14733403
The Americans did bring a culture with them - yours ;) . They also didn't assimilate to the culture of their host - they conquered and erased it.

I was referring to the later waves of immigration, especially in the late 19th and early 20th centuries, Frollein, as you well know. ;)

But my point remains - the 'melting pot' model of assimilation has serious negative consequences - the various cultures melt away, alright, but nothing else coalesces to take their place. Hence the 'multi-kulti' approach of recent decades, in which the various waves of immigrants would be allowed to retain their traditional values and cultures. But that didn't work out either, for reasons which should be obvious to all of us. So what is left?

No matter if I can theoretically "understand" that the Muslims would like to import their regressive, violent, dictatorial culture, the practical answer is to oppose them and our current regimes who would submit to them out of a pathological sense of guilt and self-loathing. If even self-declared nationalists like noemon can suddenly applaud Muslims parading their flag around, I have to wonder if the brain decay hasn't reached irreversible dimensions now, though.

It seems to me that people like moemon are caught in a double-bind. Assimilation produces serious negative consequences, multi-kulti produces equally serious, though different, negative consequences, and returning the immigrants to their point of origin is either impossible or inhumane. So what else is left? :eh:
#14733408
I am not caught in a bind and don't really get how Frollein, another nationalist does not actually get this:

noemon wrote:The Greek flag is clearly meant to show the Christianity of Greece as a lot of Euro-flags do so as well, but if a Muslim wants to bear it, then the flag subdues the person carrying it and not the other way around like for example Frollein claimed, like when a foreign power removes it for example. That is also true traditionally.


Why would I be unhappy with my flag subduing a "foreigner"?
#14733409
Potemkin wrote:Assimilation produces serious negative consequences, multi-kulti produces equally serious, though different, negative consequences, and returning the immigrants to their point of origin is either impossible or inhumane. So what else is left? :eh:


Ethnically homogenous nation states - which is what happened to Europe after the world wars, and nobody asked if displacing millions of people was impossible or inhumane. Assimilate or remigrate - that's the only choice we can allow ourselves to extend to immigrants. Otherwise we will very nobly die out.

noemon: because I don't see it as your flag subdueing anyone; rather, you have given your flag to the enemy, they didn't even have to kill you to take it from your hands.

And you call yourself a nationalist.
#14733410
But she is a Greek citizen/national who earned the honour. :hmm:

And symbolically she parades the flag to honour it not to dishonour it, so your rationale is not logical.

A person honouring somehow means dishonouring it? How is that?

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