Why Heavy Metal Music is dominated by males - Page 2 - Politics Forum.org | PoFo

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#15037923
:roll: Biology isn't an enemy. Talk about misinterpreting my argument. :knife: It's mostly not vastly relevant when dealing with humans, who use their intellect to overcome biological urges.

We are not discussing jobs. We are discussing people who like Metal music. You are purposefully going off-topic because you want to make a point that is not relevant to this discussion.

I will address this briefly, however, to humour you. Try to be less rude.

Careers are male dominated for a variety of reasons, including history, cultural expectations and norms, stereotypes, job requirements and interest from prospective employees. Gender roles are not based in biology.

Our biology isn't changing, so why are gender roles changing? Hmmm?
Gendered' Jobs Are on the Decline, But Stereotypes Remain
https://www.businessnewsdaily.com/10085 ... -jobs.html
Last edited by Godstud on 30 Sep 2019 06:36, edited 1 time in total.
#15037924
Godstud wrote::roll: Biology isn't an enemy. Talk about misinterpreting my argument. :knife: It's mostly not vastly relevant when dealing with humans, who use their intellect to overcome biological urges.

We are not discussing jobs. We are discussing people who like Metal music. You are purposefully going off-topic because you want to make a point that is not relevant to this discussion.

I will address this briefly, however, to humour you. Try to be less rude.

Careers are male dominated for a variety of reasons, including history, cultural expectations and norms, stereotypes, job requirements and interest from prospective employees.

You left out the biology. Men and women are different. This is important and it explains the preferences regarding HM music.
Thank you for making my point.
#15037925
:eh: I left it out because I wasn't making a point for you, and it's irrelevant. Where do you get that I support your nonsense about biology if I never included it? There's not a need to pretend I said something which I clearly did not.

Gender roles are not biological. They are sociological and psychological. They are also not relevant to this discussion, unless you can prove biologically why men like metal music more than women(which is just an assumption with no basis in reality).

Your arguments tend to be lacking in evidence, and are based on your feelings about biology and some illusion you have that it supersedes intellect.
#15038007
Godstud wrote:Women, socially, have always been expected to be more conforming to social norms, than males. They are socially pushed away from music such as Metal. Biology doesn't figure into that.

That's ludicrous. Women push to shape social norms. Metal music is loud and aggressive. It doesn't appeal to many women. It's not just the number of metal musicians, it's also the audience.

Godstud wrote:Hormones would factor in a great deal more if we didn't have an intellect that can over-ride them. That, and whether you like Metal music isn't decided by testosterone, or hormones.

Intellect doesn't override things like homosexuality. A man with a penis may prefer to have sex with another man even though his intellect tells him he can not reproduce with another man, because that is not how biology works. Intellect doesn't overcome base drives indefinitely. Otherwise, we wouldn't have things like transgender/sex reassignment surgery. The reality is that some of our behavior and preferences are hard wired.

ThirdTerm wrote:In the old days when metal music was great, we had Lita Ford. I guess females are not into this type of music in the first place, which is why there are less female singers or bands in this genre.

Lita Ford, Joan Jett, and the Runaways were pretty rare by comparison to the GoGos or the Bangles back in the day. Women tend to sing more romantic songs, and heavy metal simply doesn't fit that bill.

Julian658 wrote:In these professions women are non-existent even though the pay is not bad:

Yes. I remember in college they made us take some class about gender norming pay, and some labor-gender panel investigated and found that receptionists and HVAC personnel had about the same level of skill, but HVAC people got paid more. So they made companies increase the pay of receptionists to avoid sex discrimination lawsuits. What happened then was that it was cheaper to automate receptionists, which in turn led to a mass firing of call routers and automated phone support systems. I was working on integration systems at the time, and when the internet opened up, it became clear to me that they would outsource call centers to India because people speak English and at the time would work for 1/10th of the pay. People thought I was crazy, but it totally panned out.

Godstud wrote:Yes. Social aspects.

That explains some of it, but heavy metal is male dominant. Consider alternative music and their subculture. For example, Juggalos are fans of the Insane Clown Posse, and tend to have nearly as many women as men and plenty of self-destructive behavior.





Godstud wrote:Gender roles are not based in biology.

You mean like breastfeeding? That may be true for you, but most men cannot breast feed their babies and the reasons are biological not social.

Godstud wrote:Gender roles are not biological. They are sociological and psychological.

Welfare states are reaching their limits. Women do not necessarily want to leave the home, be away from their children, and be forced to work for money. Trying to force science into a subordinate role for politicians and bankers isn't going to change reality. It's just going to maximize pressure for change toward a more gender stable society and away from the freakery being pushed today.
#15038011
Jethro Bodine wrote:About 20 years ago, I went to school for audio engineering and worked briefly in the music business (okay, I interned at a recording studio). The one thing I took away from that experience is that rock and metal musicians kinda tend to be douchebags with more ego than talent. Now I'm a fan of some metal (can Tool really be categorized as metal?) but honestly, aggression and arrogance is the whole metal shtick and I know a lot more aggressive and arrogant men than women. So it's really not surprising that the genre is dominated by male performers.


Lol ok. So you agree with my hypothesis but you're attacking metal people at the same time...fair enough I guess.

What I will agree with you on is that of the many many metal bands in all existence, which numbers in the hundreds of thousands based on metal-archives.com, I think the vast majority do in fact suck.

I'm actually a metal elitist which means that I fight, preserve, and protect true and good quality metal and I'm aware that there are lots and lots of shitty and fake metal bands that exist. So I'm ok with you feeling how you do.

Why don't you check out my album? It's got excellent production value, good songwriting, good singing, and good guitar solos.
#15038016
@Godstud

If my hypothesis is wrong, then tell which of this specific facts you dispute:

#1: The overwhelming majority of metal listeners are male
#2: Males possess more of the testosterone hormone than females
#3: Higher levels of testosterone cause aggressive behavior
#4: Metal is often an aggressive style of music
#5: Releasing aggression is an enjoyable experience

If all these facts are true, then it seems that my hypothesis is only logical.

It appears you dispute #4 and #5, am I correct?

The inept POD, the BOT cannot explain why some professions are almost 100% dominated by men: Can you explain why?

MEN DOING THE JOBS BELOW:'

98.6%Heating, air conditioning, and refrigeration mechanics and installers.
98.6%Drywall installers, ceiling tile installers
98.3%Logging workers
99.1%Bus and truck mechanics and diesel engine specialists


In countries where they have pushed for equal job opportunities for women, what they have found is that despite this push, when women are free to choose their own career path, they continue to choose to work in fields that society would expect of them. The evidence seems to show that it's not a matter of social oppression, but most likely a matter of biology.
#15038201
AgentSteel wrote:#1: The overwhelming majority of metal listeners are male
- Do you have evidence of this, or is this just an assumption? I do agree that this is likely, but this doesn't support your hypothesis. Society and psychology are much greater determining factors.

#2: Males possess more of the testosterone hormone than females
- True, but whether this is relevant or not is questionable, at best.

#3: Higher levels of testosterone cause aggressive behavior
- True, but whether this is relevant or not is in question.

#4: Metal is often an aggressive style of music
- Some definitely can be, but not all genres of Metal are. How is this relevant to women not liking it due to "biology"? Liking something is a CHOICE and done by the intellect, and not instinct or some biological imperative.

#5: Releasing aggression is an enjoyable experience
- Yes, it can be. Women have aggression, too.

None of this makes your hypothesis actually logical or valid, however, since there is no actual science(evidence) to support it, beyond vast generalizations.

AgentSteel wrote:In countries where they have pushed for equal job opportunities for women, what they have found is that despite this push, when women are free to choose their own career path, they continue to choose to work in fields that society would expect of them. The evidence seems to show that it's not a matter of social oppression, but most likely a matter of biology.
Social and psychological changes, not necessarily biological ones, although we can't discount this as a factor in their decision making processes.

If your hypothesis was, "I think that biology might have some small part to play in what type of music we like.", I might agree with you, but then you would still have to provide some sort of evidence for this, which is sorely lacking.

Do you understand?
#15038210
I would say, it's a reasonable hypothesis, but I'm not sure there exists any experiments that people have carried out to figure out why so men dominate these forms of music.

I'm sure that the truth is somewhere in between. That is, it's partially testosterone, and partial society, and partial other things. It's always multi-factored.

Godstud wrote:Society and psychology are much greater determining factors.


Do you have evidence of this?
#15038213
@Rancid Yes.

Study offers clues on why women choose medicine over engineering
https://www.apa.org/monitor/sep03/clues

Is social pressure making men leave typically ‘female’ jobs?
https://www.weforum.org/agenda/2019/02/ ... male-jobs/

All The Ways Women Are Still Pressured To Put Family Before Career
https://www.huffpost.com/entry/family-c ... 1854856b07
Last edited by Godstud on 01 Oct 2019 01:40, edited 1 time in total.
#15038215
No, but there is NOT a study done on Metal music, and since psychology and society are already such huge determining factors in most things, and not biology, we can make the same relative comparison.

I think the biggest thing you need to this hypothesis is something beyond a vast generalization and coming to a quick conclusion that it's because of hormones.
#15038216
Ooops missed the rest

Godstud wrote:@Rancid Yes.

Study offers clues on why women choose medicine over engineering
https://www.apa.org/monitor/sep03/clues

Is social pressure making men leave typically ‘female’ jobs?
https://www.weforum.org/agenda/2019/02/ ... male-jobs/

All The Ways Women Are Still Pressured To Put Family Before Career
https://www.huffpost.com/entry/family-c ... 1854856b07


Again, I think you would need to SPECIFICALLY study music to come to a conclusion about music though.

Right now, you are just hypothesizing it's society, and the OP is hypothesizing testosterone.

Just like there's data saying society can pressure people to do certain things, there's also data suggesting testosterone makes people behave a certain.

Ultimately, my point is, you cannot conclude anything from anything you or the OP has said.
#15038217
Godstud wrote:since psychology and society are already such huge determining factors in most things, and not biology,


You sure about that? :?:

Genetics/biology don't play a factor in a person's development and psychology? I don't buy this one. everything is multi-factored. Biology is certainly a significant factor.
#15038219
HORMONES do not. That was AgentSteel's primary argument. It's testosterone-based.

I do not say that biology isn't an influencing factor, but it's not a determining one.
#15038220
Godstud wrote:HORMONES do not. That was AgentSteel's primary argument. It's testosterone-based.

I do not say that biology isn't an influencing factor, but it's not a determining one.


I'm sure it's not all testosterone, but I don't think we can blankly say it doesn't play a factor. Hormones certainly do affect a person's personality.
#15038227
Unless there's some sort of scientific support to back it up, it's still a hypothesis that is based solely on the assumptions that more men like and listen to Metal music, and nothing more.

Strangely enough, most of my friends have wives who also love the metal music they listen to, and go with them to concerts. Do they have more testosterone, or is it simply what they are exposed to?
#15038238
Godstud I'll come back and address your whole post in a bit but for now this statement of yours "Liking something is a CHOICE and done by the intellect, and not instinct or some biological imperative" I find outrageous.

Since when is taste/preference for something a choice? Haven't we established already in the topic about homosexuality that attraction is not a choice? Doesn't that apply across the board to all attractions, including food, music, etc.?
#15038240
Agent Steel wrote:Lol ok. So you agree with my hypothesis but you're attacking metal people at the same time...fair enough I guess.

What I will agree with you on is that of the many many metal bands in all existence, which numbers in the hundreds of thousands based on metal-archives.com, I think the vast majority do in fact suck.

I'm actually a metal elitist which means that I fight, preserve, and protect true and good quality metal and I'm aware that there are lots and lots of shitty and fake metal bands that exist. So I'm ok with you feeling how you do.

Why don't you check out my album? It's got excellent production value, good songwriting, good singing, and good guitar solos.


Really, it's not just metal I'm contemptuous of but the music industry in general. There's a lot of mediocrity in all genres and I wonder if there's not enough drug use these days or something. Lol. Reminds me of an MTV interview from the early 80's with Frank Zappa where he was talking about music being made as a formulaic product to be consumed rather than art. At least metal musicians actually play instruments and write their own songs.

Yeah, I'd be interested in listening to your album. Do you have any songs online?
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