The connection between pro-life and rape culture - Page 4 - Politics Forum.org | PoFo

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#15086214
Pants-of-dog wrote:Instead of looking at the social conventions that make it easy for men to get away with sexual assault, you ASSUME that the evil sociologists and women are out to get someone so they lied about what it means and they are just trying to oppress everyone with their scary words.

This is an ad hominem and a strawman in one.

No, this is overstating my point and I've already corrected you on this assertion. it seems that you project black-and-white thinking onto others. When you made the same assertion over the page I replied thusly:
jakell wrote:I did say that although for some the use is incidental (if ill advised), there are bound to be others who see a personal or group gain in propagating it, I think this is true of many concepts. I don't know why would be taking it personally
#15086218
Pants-of-dog wrote:Instead of looking at the social conventions that make it easy for men to get away with sexual assault,

What social conventions? In most case the only reason mean can get away with sexual assault is that women don't record their intimate encounters. its not rocket science. They then compound this, by not immediately reporting every incident. If women don't trust the Police then they should set up their own organisations to allow women to promptly record and detail every accusation of rape, or sexual assault however minor.

The overriding reason men don't respect women's boundaries is because most women don't really care about men respecting their boundaries. I'm not saying that women want to be raped, but it should be plainly obvious that if women, immediately ended all social contact with any man who transgressed their boundaries, we would live in a very different world. The fact is that many women find so called toxic masculinity intoxicating. Yes, Muslim men like those in ISIS, Gang leaders and business men and other men in positions of power get sex by the use of their greater physical strength but they get far, far more sex, just because they are attractive to women.

Modern feminism is really a giant shit test for White men. I'm not saying as a White man you shouldn't respect women's boundaries, but if you fall for the White male guilt shame nonsense then you will make yourself much less attractive to women. Of course once feminists have deballed all the White men, they going to be attracted to Muslim men and other immigrant or minority ethnic men who still retain their masculinity and have zero time for extremist feminist nonsense.
#15086223
Rich wrote:What social conventions? In most case the only reason mean can get away with sexual assault is that women don't record their intimate encounters. its not rocket science. They then compound this, by not immediately reporting every incident. If women don't trust the Police then they should set up their own organisations to allow women to promptly record and detail every accusation of rape, or sexual assault however minor.

The overriding reason men don't respect women's boundaries is because most women don't really care about men respecting their boundaries. I'm not saying that women want to be raped, but it should be plainly obvious that if women, immediately ended all social contact with any man who transgressed their boundaries, we would live in a very different world. The fact is that many women find so called toxic masculinity intoxicating. Yes, Muslim men like those in ISIS, Gang leaders and business men and other men in positions of power get sex by the use of their greater physical strength but they get far, far more sex, just because they are attractive to women.

Modern feminism is really a giant shit test for White men. I'm not saying as a White man you shouldn't respect women's boundaries, but if you fall for the White male guilt shame nonsense then you will make yourself much less attractive to women. Of course once feminists have deballed all the White men, they going to be attracted to Muslim men and other immigrant or minority ethnic men who still retain their masculinity and have zero time for extremist feminist nonsense.

Don't forget that, according to descriptions in this thread, the concept of 'rape culture' includes all sorts of extra fluff that allegedly holds women back and keeps them fearful , ie it's not just about actual sexual assault which would be a criminal matter. it's also about imagined and virtual sexual assault.

A criminal matter is something relatively easy to envisage and tackle but this doesn't suit those who wish to create a moral panic out of the concept that they can also gain sustenance from (there are always some who can gain from others discomfort and neurosis), it is this inflation that I am largely objecting to.
#15086227
jakell wrote:No, this is overstating my point and I've already corrected you on this assertion. it seems that you project black-and-white thinking onto others. When you made the same assertion over the page I replied thusly:


At this point, you are so far into discussing me and these supposedly evil feminists that you have lost track of the actual discussion.

jakell wrote:Don't forget that, according to descriptions in this thread, the concept of 'rape culture' includes all sorts of extra fluff that allegedly holds women back and keeps them fearful , ie it's not just about actual sexual assault which would be a criminal matter.


Yes, you are beginning to understand what “rape culture” means.

It is about the social conventions that make it easier for rapists to sexually assault people.

I ignored your bit where you once again accuse people who want to discuss sexual assault of creating a moral panic for their own nefarious purposes.

@Rich

No, women are not hesitant about reporting sexual assault because they find rapists so intoxicating.

They hesitate because as soon as they do, men accuse them of making false claims or wanting it (like you just did) or being partly responsible for it by how she dressed or drank, and having her entire sex life open to the public.

This is actually a good example of rape culture. So, thanks.

And thanks for the compliment about me and my family being more macho and virile than you white guys.
#15086228
Pants-of-dog wrote:No, women are not hesitant about reporting sexual assault because they find rapists so intoxicating.

They hesitate because as soon as they do, men accuse them of making false claims or wanting it (like you just did)

You just lied about what what I said two posts earlier. I quite specifically said that I wasn't saying that women wanted to be raped.

I've known many women who have told me about being raped or sexually assaulted both as adults and children. On the whole I never doubted the veracity of what they said. In the case of two of them who I was told about, the men lost self control in the moment and were mortified afterwards. One of those men had been a very close friend of mine. But on neither occasion did the women immediately and permanently break off their relationships with the men in question.
Last edited by Rich on 22 Apr 2020 19:55, edited 1 time in total.
#15086232
Pants-of-dog wrote:At this point, you are so far into discussing me and these supposedly evil feminists that you have lost track of the actual discussion.

i don't know why you keep inserting yourself personally, of the two categories I described above would put you in the wide-eyed innocent one. I can't say for sure, I mean you may be evil and a good pretender, but I'm giving you the benefit of the doubt*.
it's quite easy to keep on multiple tracks of a discussion and I think I've managed to address both the internal subject matter itself and any larger societal frame it exists in. the same would go for you too if you stop taking things personally.

==========================
* You do lose minor empathy points for the following exchange, using "rape" in a tabloidy fashion where no sexual assault has taken place does suggest a certain emotional retardation :

jakell wrote:I would say it is normal to have an emotional reaction to the word "rape" (even more so for any who have experienced a sexual assault). Of course, through repetition many have become numb to this (or learned to suppress it) but do you think this is a healthy (non) reaction? do you think that the casual use of the word "rape" (for it has already been established here that 'rape culture' does always imply sexual assault) is useful in (alleged) sociological discourse?

Pants-of-dog wrote:If you want to make this a safe space and use trigger warnings, et cetera, I am fine with that.
#15086233
Pants-of-dog wrote:You do not seem to have an argument.

My point is that you and the many women and men that share your radical feminist views, do not really want to understand why things are the way they are. Rape itself is a continuum and is part of a much wider continuum of behaviour. I understand the radical feminist viewpoint on consent. I totally understand why feminists wished we lived in a world where men never crossed boundaries of intimacy without explicit consent. Yes that might be an ideal, but its not going to happen, because women don't want it to happen.

My argument is that the fundamental problem here is not the behaviour of men, but the behaviour of women. its not just women generally but most feminists do not walk the walk. If radical feminists were actually interested in practical ways to reduce the incidence of sexual assault and rape then I would be open, but they are not. They are interested in ideological warfare. That's why most feminists have zero interest in confronting Islam, Black Gang culture on any ethnic culture considered to be a victim of White racism.

If feminists were to demonstrate at Catholic services or Muslim Mosques against the exclusion of women from religious leadership I would support them. i don't support special privileges for religious people. If we are going to have sexual discrimination laws then everyone should be forced to obey them. But you see their feminism collapses the moment it meets the real world.
#15086234
jakell wrote:i don't know why you keep inserting yourself personally, of the two categories I described above would put you in the wide-eyed innocent one. I can't say for sure, I mean you may be evil and a good pretender, but I'm giving you the benefit of the doubt*.
it's quite easy to keep on multiple tracks of a discussion and I think I've managed to address both the internal subject matter itself and any larger societal frame it exists in. the same would go for you too if you stop taking things personally.

==========================
* You do lose minor empathy points for the following exchange, using "rape" in a tabloidy fashion where no sexual assault has taken place does suggest a certain emotional retardation :


As far as I can tell, there is no argument in this post.

————————

Rich wrote:My point is that you and the many women and men that share your radical feminist views, do not really want to understand why things are the way they are. Rape itself is a continuum and is part of a much wider continuum of behaviour. I understand the radical feminist viewpoint on consent. I totally understand why feminists wished we lived in a world where men never crossed boundaries of intimacy without explicit consent. Yes that might be an ideal, but its not going to happen, because women don't want it to happen.


As far as I can tell, there is no argument in this part of your post.

My argument is that the fundamental problem here is not the behaviour of men, but the behaviour of women. its not just women generally but most feminists do not walk the walk. If radical feminists were actually interested in practical ways to reduce the incidence of sexual assault and rape then I would be open, but they are not. They are interested in ideological warfare. That's why most feminists have zero interest in confronting Islam, Black Gang culture on any ethnic culture considered to be a victim of White racism.


As far as I can tell, there is no argument in this part of your post.

If feminists were to demonstrate at Catholic services or Muslim Mosques against the exclusion of women from religious leadership I would support them. i don't support special privileges for religious people. If we are going to have sexual discrimination laws then everyone should be forced to obey them. But you see their feminism collapses the moment it meets the real world.


As far as I can tell, there is no argument in this part of your post.

That seemed to be entirely about your feelings about feminists. And a little rape culture thrown in.

What are you guys’ stances on abortion?
#15086235
Pants-of-dog wrote:As far as I can tell, there is no argument in this post.

Of course not, I was responding to this:
Pants-of-dog wrote:At this point, you are so far into discussing me and these supposedly evil feminists that you have lost track of the actual discussion.

I have no problem with addressing purely personal concerns (up to a point of course), in fact they would be another track to the other two I mentioned: the internal mechanics of the concept of 'rape culture', and the wider framework that it would be used in.

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