[Donna]

I know there is a difference.. the "rape culture discourse" is a (conveniently) abstract and generalised notion, however in reality is is usually selectively applied to Western nations, and the source of the idea is Western too.

Just because the discourse is overwhelmingly occurring in Western nations does not mean that it is being selectively applied.

In talking of Islam I'm countering this selectivity by pointing out a culture where it is far more open, entrenched and marked, and how that concentration tends to be ignored. In other words, in spite of flowery assertions that it applies universally (and allegedly to men too), it is a political tool that , in common with most of the products of Third Wave Feminism, is aimed at Western power structures alone - it's nothing to do with equality and egalitarianism.

If your rape culture discourse begins to fixate on, for example, Indigenous culture or Islamic culture, it automatically becomes more complex. The inquirer must now question whether the motivation here is good faith discourse or bigotry. No matter how convincing the argument might be, the fetishistic premise of focusing on particular subsets of people makes everything more complicated.

This last aligns with the mention of 'Cultural Marxism' from above. Even though I believe CM to be a crude construct, it does seem to align in places with a concerted attack on the West alone, so I have some time for its proponents.

It's an anti-Semitic and fascist conspiracy theory, but okay.

I've made no mention of any indigenous peoples at all, perhaps you are using haphazard SJW lexicon and hoping that no-one will notice due to the emotional fog that usually surrounds these fluffy concepts.

My apologies, that was Rich who made the comments I was thinking of.

[jakell]

..You did not show that western cultures are not also fundamentally sexist..

I didn't set out to demonstrate that sexism isn't present in Western cultures, I'm not really focusing on sexism but the (deliberate IMO) exaggeration of this that has been termed 'rape culture'. If you think they are the same then let's re-imagine this thread title and see if it has the same meaning or impact.

My example of Islam was to show that that your notion of rape culture is codified (It seems to me that 'rape culture' hints at such a structure) into the fundamentals of islam, and it isn't here - here sexism is a remnant of more primitive times and there is nothing to stop it continuing to fade organically.

In other words, your attempt at equivalence by using "also" doesn't work.

[Pants-of-dog]

I didn't set out to demonstrate that sexism isn't present in Western cultures, I'm not really focusing on sexism but the (deliberate IMO) exaggeration of this that has been termed 'rape culture'. If you think they are the same then let's re-imagine this thread title and see if it has the same meaning or impact.

My example of Islam was to show that that your notion of rape culture is codified (It seems to me that 'rape culture' hints at such a structure) into the fundamentals of islam, and it isn't here - here sexism is a remnant of more primitive times and there is nothing to stop it continuing to fade organically.

In other words, your attempt at equivalence by using "also" doesn't work.

You failed to show that rape culture is not codified into the fundamentals of Christianity, Judaism, and western comservatism.

[Rich]

It's an anti-Semitic and fascist conspiracy theory, but okay.

Its not anti Jewish, its not anti Semitic language speakers, its not fascist, although fascists may believe in it as a many fascists believe the world is round and its not a conspiracy theory.

Cultural Marxism is the confluence of three phenomena, an evolving reorientation of strategy by orthodox Marxists, the development of a number of streams of ideological thought that are not Orthodox Marxism but are related to Marxism, where the primary focus on social class is removed and the mass expansion of further and higher education in Arts and Social Sciences.

Note there is no giant conspiracy there. There is not even a number of large conspiracies. its not a conspiracy orientated theory or even a mostly conspiracy theory. Now I know this idea of it not being a conspiracy theory is difficult for many of you lefties to grasp but I'm happy to clarify any difficulties you have in understanding.

This is important because real world Islam is a hideous misogynistic religion and any so called radical feminism that doesn't savagely attack is a fake feminist, is a Cultural Marxist not a real feminist. Note I only demand that Muslims pass one test, that they support the right of women, including their own daughters, wives and sisters to enter into lesbian sexual relationships partnerships and civil partnerships and to refuse marriage and sexual relationships with men. I am confident that if Muslims could pass this test, they would inevitably drop the other things that are offensive about their religion.

The few people who abide by modern western sexual morality and claim to be Muslims are an irrelevance. Sexual morality is part of the foundation bedrock of the Christian and Islamic ideologies. Its not some sort of optional extra. Look at Quakers, they don't hang on to old style Christian sexual morality, and the joke is that the children of Quakers become Buddhism. Shorn of its traditional patriarchal, sexist, misogynistic sexual morality, Christianity is a dead man walking. The same would be true of Islam if it capitulated. The great strength of Islam, and incidentally Orthodox Judaism, is that they have refused to bow to modern western notions on sexual morality.

[jakell]

If your rape culture discourse begins to fixate on, for example, Indigenous culture or Islamic culture, it automatically becomes more complex. The inquirer must now question whether the motivation here is good faith discourse or bigotry. No matter how convincing the argument might be, the fetishistic premise of focusing on particular subsets of people makes everything more complicated.

I'd actually say that it simplifies it. 'Rape culture' seems to suggests a structure that is aimed at keeping women down by various means, and I would say that to focus on the more open and actually codified instances of this are the better place to start.

I also chose Islam because the Left seems to continually give it a free pass, no matter how egregious it gets, and this looks like hypocrisy, leading me to believe that invented phrases such as 'rape culture' are designed/used as political tools rather than general philosophical concepts.

We could take Pants' route and make the title "The connection between pro-life and sexism", and see how the emotional impact is lesssened - demonstrating that 'the term 'rape culture' is designed to promote emotion over cognition

Its not anti Jewish, its not anti Semitic language speakers, its not fascist, although fascists may believe in it as a many fascists believe the world is round and its not a conspiracy theory...

Yeah, you could easily remove the Jewish elements favoured by White Nationalist types etc and it scans just as well, if not better.

[jakell]

Moved this post to append to my previous one, but don't know how to delete this one..

[Donna]

I'd actually say that it simplifies it.

It doesn't though. By making your motives suspect all you're doing is tainting the discourse.

[jakell]

It doesn't though. By making your motives suspect all you're doing is tainting the discourse.

I'm pretty sure that suspicion of motives taints all discourse, especially in political and emotive topics, so I don't think this can be removed to reveal some pure kernel. Only in pure science could this be achieved and then only using restraint (because many science types tend to lack self awareness of their own biases, they think they are all Mr Spock).

The best we can do is accept this and try to discover motives and/or declare any motives along with what we communicate.

(In the spirit of disclosure, I'm Islamaphobic and proud, anyone else care to declare anything?)

[Pants-of-dog]

I'd actually say that it simplifies it. 'Rape culture' seems to suggests a structure that is aimed at keeping women down by various means, and I would say that to focus on the more open and actually codified instances of this are the better place to start.

I guess if you are approaching this idea for the very first time and have limited experience with social sciences, it does simplify things to focus on Islam.

For people who deal with this every day, like women, it complicates things because it makes western conservatives focus on how Muslims do bad things and ignore how rape culture works in western conservatism.

I also chose Islam because the Left seems to continually give it a free pass, no matter how egregious it gets, and this looks like hypocrisy, leading me to believe that invented phrases such as 'rape culture' are designed/used as political tools rather than general philosophical concepts.

I openly agreed with you about Islam.

You then accused me of ignoring it.

I then clarified that I agreed with you.

You then ignored it.

So, it is incorrect to say that the left continually ignores Islam.

I will say that the right seems to continually give western conservatism a free pass, no matter how egregious it gets, and this looks like hypocrisy, leading me to believe that when western conservatives use phrases such as 'rape culture' , they use the phrase as political tools rather than general philosophical concepts.

We could take Pants' route and make the title "The connection between pro-life and sexism", and see how the emotional impact is lesssened - demonstrating that 'the term 'rape culture' is designed to promote emotion over cognition.

The only person who seems to be getting emotional about the phrase is you. If you want to use other words, we can do that for you.

Also, I never claimed that rape culture and sexism are the same thing. That is a strawman. You probably got confused because you incorrectly claimed to have shown how rape culture is embedded on Islam, when all you did show was that sexism is embedded in Islam.

[jakell]

Also, I never claimed that rape culture and sexism are the same thing. That is a strawman. You probably got confused because you incorrectly claimed to have shown how rape culture is embedded on Islam, when all you did show was that sexism is embedded in Islam.

Ok, I was being cheeky there, but you did use the term 'sexist' where we had previously been talking of 'rape culture', and I assumed you were attempting a conflation to help make your point.
I'm sure you will admit that using 'sexism' in the title changes the impact and from this comes my charge that the term is about emotional manipulation.

I think I'm justified in saying that 'rape culture' is embedded in Islam because it is openly codified in the fundamentals (I think we can agree that codified sexism amount to rape culture). The definition of rape culture provided by Godstud seems to require codification.
Here we have a lingering sexism, but nothing anywhere near as concrete to prevent it being challenged.

[Donna]

The best we can do is accept this and try to discover motives and/or declare any motives along with what we communicate.

(In the spirit of disclosure, I'm Islamaphobic and proud, anyone else care to declare anything?)

Then we're not really engaging in discourse since it's transparent that your motivation for conflating rape culture with Islamic culture is primarily prejudicial.

It's true that we all have our biases, which is why the things we say or imply carry weight and can potentially taint the premise of a lot of things.

[Pants-of-dog]

Ok, I was being cheeky there, but you did use the term 'sexist' where we had previously been talking of 'rape culture', and I assumed you were attempting a conflation to help make your point.

Again, the reason I used the word “sexism” was because you provided evidence that sexism was fundamental to Islam.

If you had provided evidence that rape culture was fundamental to Islam, I would have continued to use that term.

I'm sure you will admit that using 'sexism' in the title changes the impact and from this comes my charge that the term is about emotional manipulation.

No, not really.

I think I'm justified in saying that 'rape culture' is embedded in Islam because it is openly codified in the fundamentals (I think we can agree that codified sexism amount to rape culture).

The definition of rape culture provided by Godstud seems to require codification.

I would not agree that sexism needs to be codified in order for a rape culture to exist. Rape culture can also exist in more informal settings. Like locker rooms.

Here we have a lingering sexism, but nothing anywhere near as concrete to prevent it being challenged.

One of the ways that conservatives prevent challenges to sexism is by pretending that it does not exist in any significant manner. The same can be said about rape culture: by pretending that it does not exist in western societies, rape culture can be shielded from criticism.

[jakell]

Then we're not really engaging in discourse since it's transparent that your motivation for conflating rape culture with Islamic culture is primarily prejudicial.

We are evidently doing this right now.

I believe it is possible to have a positive or negative inclination towards something and still be objective, the procedure is to have some self-awareness, declare any motivations you have and then provide supporting data and externals to support your claims.

I think that I have done this regarding 'rape culture' and Islam and I hope you will find my arguments to be honest.

[jakell]

Again, the reason I used the word “sexism” was because you provided evidence that sexism was fundamental to Islam.

If you had provided evidence that rape culture was fundamental to Islam, I would have continued to use that term.

Going by Godstud's definition of 'rape culture' I would say that it amounts to codified or structural sexism (in fact I would say that these are better terms). I've shown that this is demonstrably the case in Islam.

I don't see the same in the West, just a lingering sexism that has little to prevent successful challenges in comparison

[Donna]

We are evidently doing this right now.

No, it's more of a meta-discussion about discourse.

I think that I have done this regarding 'rape culture' and Islam and I hope you will find my arguments to be honest.

Honest? Sure. But that isn't really the issue here.

[Pants-of-dog]

Going by Godstud's definition of 'rape culture' I would say that it amounts to codified or structural sexism (in fact I would say that these are better terms).

Again, sexism does not need to be codified in order for a rape culture to exist. The sexism in locker rooms and frat houses is not codified, and there are rape cultures in frat houses and locker rooms.

And after rereading the text cited by Godstud, I see there is no indication that anything needs to be codified.

I've shown that this is the demonstrably the case in Islam.

I don't see the same in the West, just a lingering sexism that has little to prevent successful challenges in comparison

Are you arguing that we should ignore rape culture in the west because we are not as horrifically awful as your Muslim allies?

[jakell]

Are you arguing that we should ignore rape culture in the west because we are not as horrifically awful as your Muslim allies?

Firstly, I believe that 'rape culture' is an unnecessarily emotive term, I don't think this was accidental though and was designed to be be manipulative and create a fog where cognitive ability is reduced (to 'trigger' people in other words). Nevertheless I've engaged with it with a view to coming up with something more useful, and I believe that structural or codified sexism is more useful at getting at the underlying matters.
(If you think that these terms don't equate to Godstud's definition then explain why).

We are not ignoring these things in the West and there has been plenty of activity to combat them, the only problem comes when in the presence of Utopian dreamers who (in spite of historical example) believe that longstanding human foibles can be engineered completely away in the space of a decade or two. Here I'm talking about distortions that come from favouring equality of outcome over equality of opportunity, not realising that forcing the former reduces the latter (the ends justify the means in other words).

My opinion is that the West is doing ok at removing the remnants of structural sexism (which I think some exaggerate purely for personal and group gain) , we are not ignoring it. Islam in contrast both promotes and ignores it and will continue to do so due to its codification.

[Pants-of-dog]

Firstly, I believe that 'rape culture' is an unnecessarily emotive term, I don't think this was accidental though and was designed to be be manipulative and create a fog where cognitive ability is reduced (to 'trigger' people in other words). Nevertheless I've engaged with it with a view to coming up with something more useful, and I believe that structural or codified sexism is more useful at getting at the underlying matters.
(If you think that these terms don't equate to Godstud's definition then explain why).

I explained why “codified sexism” does not equate to Goddtud’s cited text: because nothing in the cited text mentions or implies codification. I also cited examples of rape culture existing in milieus that do not have codified sexism.

You can choose to discuss these facts I have put forth, or you can continue to talk about codified sexism for no apparent reason.

As for the emotional impact of the words “rape culture”, no one here is triggered by these words.

We are not ignoring these things in the West and there has been plenty of activity to combat them,

Yes and no.

When it comes to sexism and restricting abortion, progressives combat them and conservatives ignore or support them. So, it would be correct to say that large portions of western societies are ignoring and supporting these things.

As for rape culture, it seems that progressives openly combat it, while conservatives ignore it. And they only openly support it in cases like when Trump does it.

the only problem comes when in the presence of Utopian dreamers who (in spite of historical example) believe that longstanding human foibles can be engineered completely away in the space of a decade or two. Here I'm talking about distortions that come from favouring equality of outcome over equality of opportunity, not realising that forcing the former reduces the latter (the ends justify the means in other words).

If you do not mind, I am going to ignore these off topic discussions of feminism.

My opinion is that the West is doing ok at removing the remnants of structural sexism (which I think some exaggerate purely for personal and group gain) , we are not ignoring it. Islam in contrast both promotes and ignores it and will continue to do so due to its codification.

And I think that progressives in the west are doing okay at removing the remnants in some places and in some ways. And conservatives in the west are doing okay at reinforcing these remnants.

And Islam and western conservatism both promote and ignore sexism and will continue to do so due to the fundamental aspect of sexism in both camps.

[jakell]

I explained why “codified sexism” does not equate to Goddtud’s cited text: because nothing in the cited text mentions or implies codification. I also cited examples of rape culture existing in milieus that do not have codified sexism.

I also included structural sexism (codification is what Islam does), so do you not think that equates to Godstud's 'definition' (inverted commas because that was too verbose for a definition)?

As for the emotional impact of the words “rape culture”, no one here is triggered by these words.

I would say it is normal to have an emotional reaction to the word "rape" (even more so for any who have experienced a sexual assault). Of course, through repetition many have become numb to this (or learned to suppress it) but do you think this is a healthy (non) reaction? do you think that the casual use of the word "rape" (for it has already been established here that 'rape culture' does always imply sexual assault) is useful in (alleged) sociological discourse?

And Islam and western conservatism both promote and ignore sexism and will continue to do so due to the fundamental aspect of sexism in both camps.

It has occurred to me that we may be regarding Islam differently. I am in the UK (you US?), so Islam is not geographically distant - it is in my society and allegedly operating under the same laws although the many grooming gangs operated and still do with impunity and Muslim women are very much secondary to the men.
Also, our conservatives are pretty much like your own liberals, so our terminology is not going to match up,

[Pants-of-dog]

I also included structural sexism (codification is what Islam does), so do you not think that equates to Godstud's 'definition' (inverted commas because that was too verbose for a definition)?

As far as I can tell, structural sexism is also neither mentioned nor implied in the text cited by Godstud.

And there are examples of rape culture existing in groups that have no rigid structures.

So again, I would argue that structural sexism and rape culture are two different, though related, things.

I would say it is normal to have an emotional reaction to the word "rape" (even more so for any who have experienced a sexual assault). Of course, through repetition many have become numb to this (or learned to suppress it) but do you think this is a healthy (non) reaction? do you think that the casual use of the word "rape" (for it has already been established here that 'rape culture' does always imply sexual assault) is useful in (alleged) sociological discourse?

If you want to make this a safe space and use trigger warnings, et cetera, I am fine with that.

Having said that, I think the term “rape culture” is clearly defined and can be discussed more or less objectively.

It has occurred to me that we may be regarding Islam differently. I am in the UK (you US?), so Islam is not geographically distant - it is in my society and allegedly operating under the same laws although the many grooming gangs operated and still do with impunity and Muslim women are very much secondary to the men.
Also, our conservatives are pretty much like your own liberals, so our terminology is not going to match up,

No, I am not from the USA. I currently live in Canada. So our Tories are like yours. They even call themselves Tories. We have a Westminster parliament, a nationalised health service, and a history of colonialism. The main difference between Canada and the UK (when it comes to Muslims) is that we do not bomb them nearly as much as you folks do.

In terms of gender roles, rape culture, and sexism, we share a common history. The main difference there is our stance on abortion, which is a more or less recent divergence.