[Agent Steel]

Why does it seem like pro-life men tend to also be the type who promote rape culture?

Almost like they want to ensure that if they go to the trouble of raping a girl that she will also be forced to birth it.

I don't know, there's something funny about it, like there's an ulterior motive behind them championing the pro-life position.

I don't think that they truthfully give a damn about the lives of aborted babies. Rather I think these people just need to have SOME moral issue to claim the high ground on so they can continue to justify their oppression of other minority groups. Abortion is a convenient one for them to choose because it's a decision they'll never have to make.

Has anyone else noticed this or is it just me?

[Godstud]

Conservitivism, @Agent Steel. The two are linked.

[jakell]

As far as I can see, 'rape culture' is just an invented term in order to inject the word "rape" into discussions so that they will become more emotionally charged and therefore useful to those who like to use manipulation, ie the active end of the SJW playbook.

After the emotional charge has been applied (something difficult to remove), then the faux-rationalisation of things being 'linked' comes into play. This second is for those who deny that they are subject to emotional manipulation and want to display outward signs of objectivity.

[Godstud]

No. That's stupid. It's not about SJWs.

Rape culture isn’t a myth. It’s real, and it’s dangerous.
Rape culture is a culture in which sexual violence is treated as the norm and victims are blamed for their own assaults. It's not just about sexual violence itself, but about cultural norms and institutions that protect rapists, promote impunity, shame victims, and demand that women make unreasonable sacrifices to avoid sexual assault.

Rape culture pressures women to sacrifice their freedoms and opportunities in order to stay safe, because it puts the burden of safety on women's shoulders, and blames them when they don't succeed. As a result, certain opportunities are left unavailable to women, and still others are restricted by expensive safety precautions, such as not traveling for professional networking unless you can afford your own hotel room. That amounts, essentially, to a tax that is levied exclusively on women. Over time, the cost of that tax adds up to opportunities lost and progress not achieved. When women give up social and economic opportunities in order to stay safe, that affects their progress overall, which in turn affects society's progress overall.

And although rape culture has its roots in long-standing patriarchal power structures that were designed to benefit men, today's rape culture burdens men too — for instance, by ignoring the fact that men can be victims of rape and sexual assault, and women can be perpetrators of it. That means that male victims are also left without legal protection and social support.

The goal of talking about rape culture is about much more than just reducing the frequency with which sexual assault occurs or the impunity that allows it to flourish, because the problems at the root of rape culture are much bigger than that.
https://www.vox.com/2014/12/15/7371737/ ... definition

[Rich]

https://www.vox.com/2014/12/15/7371737/rape-culture-definition

And although rape culture has its roots in long-standing patriarchal power structures that were designed to benefit men,

Lying Cultural Marxist filth!

its been about 2 days since we had a video posted on this very forum with an Apache women whining on about matrilineality. Liberals, radical feminists, are you seriously trying to tell me that Apache and Iroquois cultures weren't rape cultures?

[Pants-of-dog]

Why does it seem like pro-life men tend to also be the type who promote rape culture?

Almost like they want to ensure that if they go to the trouble of raping a girl that she will also be forced to birth it.

I don't know, there's something funny about it, like there's an ulterior motive behind them championing the pro-life position.

I don't think that they truthfully give a damn about the lives of aborted babies. Rather I think these people just need to have SOME moral issue to claim the high ground on so they can continue to justify their oppression of other minority groups. Abortion is a convenient one for them to choose because it's a decision they'll never have to make.

Has anyone else noticed this or is it just me?

Pro-lifers and rapists share one idea:

The idea that women should not be allowed to decide who uses their body and when.

[jakell]

Do rapists have a particular ideology? I doubt this very much.

I would also think that (as a class) they are largely indifferent to any forcefully created progeny .

[Prosthetic Conscience]

Mod note: this is an on-topic forum. Avoid content-free one-liners and swipes at each other.

[jakell]

Why does it seem like pro-life men tend to also be the type who promote rape culture?

Almost like they want to ensure that if they go to the trouble of raping a girl that she will also be forced to birth it.

I don't know, there's something funny about it, like there's an ulterior motive behind them championing the pro-life position.

I don't think that they truthfully give a damn about the lives of aborted babies. Rather I think these people just need to have SOME moral issue to claim the high ground on so they can continue to justify their oppression of other minority groups. Abortion is a convenient one for them to choose because it's a decision they'll never have to make.

Has anyone else noticed this or is it just me?

Conservitivism, @Agent Steel. The two are linked.

As far as I can see, 'rape culture' is just an invented term in order to inject the word "rape" into discussions so that they will become more emotionally charged and therefore useful to those who like to use manipulation, ie the active end of the SJW playbook.

After the emotional charge has been applied (something difficult to remove), then the faux-rationalisation of things being 'linked' comes into play. This second is for those who deny that they are subject to emotional manipulation and want to display outward signs of objectivity.

No. That's stupid. It's not about SJWs.

Rape culture isn’t a myth. It’s real, and it’s dangerous.
Rape culture is a culture in which sexual violence is treated as the norm and victims are blamed for their own assaults. It's not just about sexual violence itself, but about cultural norms and institutions that protect rapists, promote impunity, shame victims, and demand that women make unreasonable sacrifices to avoid sexual assault.

Rape culture pressures women to sacrifice their freedoms and opportunities in order to stay safe, because it puts the burden of safety on women's shoulders, and blames them when they don't succeed. As a result, certain opportunities are left unavailable to women, and still others are restricted by expensive safety precautions, such as not traveling for professional networking unless you can afford your own hotel room. That amounts, essentially, to a tax that is levied exclusively on women. Over time, the cost of that tax adds up to opportunities lost and progress not achieved. When women give up social and economic opportunities in order to stay safe, that affects their progress overall, which in turn affects society's progress overall.

And although rape culture has its roots in long-standing patriarchal power structures that were designed to benefit men, today's rape culture burdens men too — for instance, by ignoring the fact that men can be victims of rape and sexual assault, and women can be perpetrators of it. That means that male victims are also left without legal protection and social support.

The goal of talking about rape culture is about much more than just reducing the frequency with which sexual assault occurs or the impunity that allows it to flourish, because the problems at the root of rape culture are much bigger than that.[/i]
https://www.vox.com/2014/12/15/7371737/ ... definition

The above is just a quoted 'definition', it in no way refutes what I opined above regarding the validity and utility of the term 'rape culture' and IMO it inflates it to make it even more unwieldy.
The bolded part here about it not being about sexual violence reinforces my point about "rape" being a term used for emotional impact . I'd also question the use of the word "culture" because there is no discrete culture here*, but a component of existing human cultures.

Another contradiction there is the initial talk about it being a women's problem, but then comes the mealy-mouthed (ie lip-service) that it is a man's problem too.

All this is over-verbose bullshit though, and as verbosity and sophistry is the trap here (like that 'definition' with no added content), then saying "I rest my case.." is the perfect foil - something to be marveled at by those who appreciate economy.

* One could maybe consider Islam here, but I suspect that the target of the term 'rape culture' is fashionably aimed at Western cultures. I expect some lip service to be paid, but this will be as bogus as that paid to male victims.

[Godstud]

@jakell We're not discussing the totalitarian and ME theocracies. That's called a "Whataboutism". Islam is not relevant to this conversation, unless we're talking about Saudi Arabia, which we're not.

It's not just about sexual violence itself, but about cultural norms and institutions that protect rapists, promote impunity, shame victims, and demand that women make unreasonable sacrifices to avoid sexual assault. - This is a pretty good description about what it is and if you want to call it "a culture that promotes sexual assault, exploitation, and inequality", you can, but it's a bit long and doesn't nail it down as much as "rape culture", does.

There is a whole thread about that, if you wish to peruse it, although you'll probably need to do a search. I think it's been quiet for a while.

[jakell]

@jakell We're not discussing the totalitarian and ME theocracies. That's called a "Whataboutism". Islam is not relevant to this conversation, unless we're talking about Saudi Arabia, which we're not.

This is why I made it a footnote and not a main point. The term "rape culture" does at first seem to be an attempt to focusing, but then when a specific and actually existing culture is mentioned where it applies in a markedly more open and direct fashion, then we see a sudden avoidance - a sudden attempt to defocus.
This is no great mystery though as the intentional blindspot of Lefties towards Islam is well known (and highly hypocritical).

It's not just about sexual violence itself, but about cultural norms and institutions that protect rapists, promote impunity, shame victims, and demand that women make unreasonable sacrifices to avoid sexual assault. - This is a pretty good description about what it is and if you want to call it "a culture that promotes sexual assault, exploitation, and inequality", you can, but it's a bit long and doesn't nail it down as much as "rape culture", does.

The use of the word culture is conspiracy-theory type thinking injected into academia (and hence onwards into more functional organs of society) , there is no "promotion" of this and there are no "demands". I note that we've agreed that it isn't about rape either, but about a spectrum of things that would barely be regarded as an assault but would on examination come under the term 'micro-aggressions'
Note: 'micro-aggressions' is also an invented term to introduce the word 'aggression' where there is no such thing.

[Pants-of-dog]

Rape culture just means that there is an existing set of beliefs and assumptions in society that let men off the hook when it comes to sexual assault.

And this also ties into religion, since a lot of the religious ideas used to justify abortion are also used to justify sexual assault.

[jakell]

I'm pretty sure that rape is illegal in most Western countries and is treated as such.

Islam (let's not tiptoe around it by talking generally of religion) is a bit different as the lesser status of women is codified at a fundamental level.

[Pants-of-dog]

I'm pretty sure that rape is illegal in most Western countries and is treated as such.

It is technically i,legal, but when we look at the number of cases that result in convictions and compare it the number of sexual assaults, it essentially goes unpunished.

Islam (let's not tiptoe around it by talking generally of religion) is a bit different as the lesser status of women is codified at a fundamental level.

The same is true of Christianity, Judaism, many other religions, and conservatism.

[jakell]

Islam (let's not tiptoe around it by talking generally of religion) is a bit different as the lesser status of women is codified at a fundamental level.

The same is true of Christianity, Judaism, many other religions, and conservatism.

No it's not. Koran 4:34 states that:

"Men are in charge of women by [right of] what Allah has given one over the other and what they spend [for maintenance] from their wealth. So righteous women are devoutly obedient, guarding in [the husband's] absence what Allah would have them guard. But those [wives] from whom you fear arrogance - [first] advise them; [then if they persist], forsake them in bed; and [finally], strike them. But if they obey you [once more], seek no means against them. Indeed, Allah is ever Exalted and Grand."

There are a few different translations of this verse, but it must be pretty unambiguous as they all say more or less the same thing. Note that this is The Koran and not some Hadith or commentary - this is what I meant by "codified at a fundamental level".
Some might try to locate verses that mollify or even contradict this, but there aren't any, this verse has not been abrogated - it's right up there and is basic.

The description of 'rape culture' above seems to fit Islam markedly more than other cultures, but it is remarkable how some minds seem to shy away from the open examples present there

[Pants-of-dog]

No it's not. Koran 4:34 states that:

"Men are in charge of women by [right of] what Allah has given one over the other and what they spend [for maintenance] from their wealth. So righteous women are devoutly obedient, guarding in [the husband's] absence what Allah would have them guard. But those [wives] from whom you fear arrogance - [first] advise them; [then if they persist], forsake them in bed; and [finally], strike them. But if they obey you [once more], seek no means against them. Indeed, Allah is ever Exalted and Grand."

There are a few different translations of this verse, but it must be pretty unambiguous as they all say more or less the same thing. Note that this is The Koran and not some Hadith or commentary - this is what I meant by "codified at a fundamental level".
Some might try to locate verses that mollify or even contradict this, but there aren't any, this verse has not been abrogated - it's right up there and is basic.

The description of 'rape culture' above seems to fit Islam markedly more than other cultures, but it is remarkable how some minds seem to shy away from the open examples present there

I will repeat myself:

Pants-of-dog wrote:
The same is true of Christianity, Judaism, many other religions, and conservatism.

But if you want, we can look at how Islamic nations deal with abortion.

If I am correct, then these nations should have outlawed abortion.

[Donna]

This is why I made it a footnote and not a main point. The term "rape culture" does at first seem to be an attempt to focusing, but then when a specific and actually existing culture is mentioned where it applies in a markedly more open and direct fashion, then we see a sudden avoidance - a sudden attempt to defocus.

There's a difference between rape culture discourse and conflating rape culture with an identifiable cultural group (such as you've done in this thread with Indigenous people and Muslims).

[jakell]

There's a difference between rape culture discourse and conflating rape culture with an identifiable cultural group (such as you've done in this thread with Indigenous people and Muslims).

I know there is a difference.. the "rape culture discourse" is a (conveniently) abstract and generalised notion, however in reality is is usually selectively applied to Western nations, and the source of the idea is Western too.

In talking of Islam I'm countering this selectivity by pointing out a culture where it is far more open, entrenched and marked, and how that concentration tends to be ignored. In other words, in spite of flowery assertions that it applies universally (and allegedly to men too), it is a political tool that , in common with most of the products of Third Wave Feminism, is aimed at Western power structures alone - it's nothing to do with equality and egalitarianism.
This last aligns with the mention of 'Cultural Marxism' from above. Even though I believe CM to be a crude construct, it does seem to align in places with a concerted attack on the West alone, so I have some time for its proponents.

I've made no mention of any indigenous peoples at all, perhaps you are using haphazard SJW lexicon and hoping that no-one will notice due to the emotional fog that usually surrounds these fluffy concepts.

[jakell]

I will repeat myself:

Pants-of-dog wrote:
The same is true of Christianity, Judaism, many other religions, and conservatism.

But if you want, we can look at how Islamic nations deal with abortion.

If I am correct, then these nations should have outlawed abortion.

I've successfully demonstrated to you how the inferior position of women (and hence your 'rape culture) is codified clearly in the fundamentals of Islam (as oppposed to Western cultures), and you try to step past this.

[Pants-of-dog]

I know there is a difference.. the "rape culture discourse" is a (conveniently) abstract and generalised notion,

Not really.

It shows up in some pretty clear ways.

For example, the POTUS was recorded when he was boasting of sexually assaulting women. Not only was he given the presidency, but his words were defended as “locker room talk”, and it worked.

It worked because we, as a culture, think it is normal for men in locker rooms to boast about sexual assault. We trivialise and normalise sexual assault.

Another example is the low penalties we give to rapists. And the low rates of investigations and convictions.

Another example is how men assume that the woman is lying, despite the fact that there is no evidence that false sexual assault accusations are more prevalent than any other false accusations.

Would you like me to go on? Or do we see that it is actually quite clear and concrete?

however in reality is is usually selectively applied to Western nations, and the source of the idea is Western too.

In talking of Islam I'm countering this selectivity by pointing out a culture where it is far more open, entrenched and marked, and how that concentration tends to be ignored. In other words, in spite of flowery assertions that it applies universally (and allegedly to men too), it is a political tool that , in common with most of the products of Third Wave Feminism, is aimed at Western power structures alone - it's nothing to do with equality and egalitarianism.

This last aligns with the mention of 'Cultural Marxism' from above. Even though I believe CM to be a crude construct, it does seem to align in places with a concerted attack on the West alone, so I have some time for its proponents.

This part is just a long ad hominem about how this discourse is misapplied and does not actually provide an intelligent argument against the existence of rape culture, or how it is fuelled by the same mindset that supports banning abortion.

I've successfully demonstrated to you how the inferior position of women (and hence your 'rape culture) is codified clearly in the fundamentals of Islam (as oppposed to Western cultures), and you try to step past this.

Not quite.

You showed how it was codified in the fundamentals of Islam. And no one disagreed with that.

You did not show that western cultures are not also fundamentally sexist.

And I did not step past it. I agree that Islam is fundamentally sexist. And then I went to point out that all three Abrahamic religions are. And I also pointed out that this sexism is also a tenet of modern conservatism.

I also agreed that Islam is fundamentally sexist, and then pointed out that this probably informs their stance in sexual assault and abortion.

I predicted this based on the idea that sexism is the underlying tenet.