The connection between pro-life and rape culture - Page 3 - Politics Forum.org | PoFo

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#15085854
Pants-of-dog wrote:So again, I would argue that structural sexism and rape culture are two different, though related, things.

What is present in the notion of 'rape culture' that could not be described by 'structural sexism'?

I know that Godstud's quote was pretty verbose (and hence not really a useful as a definition), but I'm not seeing anything in there that could not be boiled down to such a term.

And there are examples of rape culture existing in groups that have no rigid structures.

You've made this up, culture implies structure and I would say that that is the reason the word was used by whoever coined the phrase.
#15085868
To be clear, it was this definition, correct?
Rape culture is a culture in which sexual violence is treated as the norm and victims are blamed for their own assaults. It's not just about sexual violence itself, but about cultural norms and institutions that protect rapists, promote impunity, shame victims, and demand that women make unreasonable sacrifices to avoid sexual assault.

No codification mentioned. That's a deliberate evasion, as is the statement that the definition is too "verbose".
#15085874
jakell wrote:What is present in the notion of 'rape culture' that could not be described by 'structural sexism'?

I know that Godstud's quote was pretty verbose (and hence not really a useful as a definition), but I'm not seeing anything in there that could not be boiled down to such a term.


Structural sexism is the sexism that is built into the very fabric of society, while rape culture is an environment where rape is trivialised and normalised.

They are related, but they are not the same thing.

Some things are both, like police not investigating rape crimes because they do not think they will get an arrest and conviction.

But you can have rape culture without structural sexism (e.g locker room talk) as well as structural sexism without rape culture (e.g. lack of promotion for women because women spend more time taking care of kids).

You've made this up, culture implies structure and I would say that that is the reason the word was used by whoever coined the phrase.


Again, locker room talk is an example of rape culture without structural sexism.
#15085911
Pants-of-dog wrote:Structural sexism is the sexism that is built into the very fabric of society, while rape culture is an environment where rape is trivialised and normalised.

It's already been established here that the term 'rape culture' is not about sexual assault, but a spectrum of other things, so your equation here doesn't work. Because of this I'd suggest the the term 'rape culture' itself trivilialises rape, in fact this is the point I've been making all along. I'm reminded of the film The Red Pill' by Cassie Jaye where it was pointed out that the statistic of college 'rape' was massively inflated by including all sorts of other lesser encounters.
Here we see at work the cool psychopathy of ideologues who will distort language (and ultimately perceptions) to any degree to force a desired response.

At the other end of the spectrum, around a decade ago White Nationalists/Supremacists were insisting on the term "White Genocide" to describe the 'browning' of their nations. I suggested that the word genocide was misused here and trivialised the concept. In the same fashion they insisted that the exaggeration was necessary for effect - the same cool psychopathy, the difference (thankfully) being that they weren't in a position to affect general discourse.
It's become less fashionable amongst them now, but not due to my ministrations.
#15085945
In Sharia law cultures, every act of heterosexual intercourse is an act of rape because in Sharia Law cultures, no woman is in a position to give empowered and informed consent. In the past there were many cultures where this was the case, Ancient Judea for example, but probably also early Republican Rome. in pre Agraian cultures women often have a much higher status and there is often some kind of respect for girls and women's sexual autonomy. But that respect almost invariably only applies to the female members of the in group. Out group women can not merely be raped and sexually assaulted, but can be beaten, tortured, mutilated and killed with impunity.

Western society has long had a taboo about rape. Look at 50s or 60s Hollywood movies, while it is acceptable to injure of kill women, it is taboo to rape women off screen let alone on screen. in the real world the vast majority of women would far rather be raped and murdered, but the fetishisation of rape was not invented by 2nd wave feminists. We can't blame that on the Cultural Marxists, but they have inherited it from our Christian culture.

If you raise the Holodomor with communists, its water off a dogs back. It's ll just be Nazis blah, blah, fascists , blah, but what they are really thinking is, what's the deaths of six million Kulaks compared to the building of the socialist paradise. However if you start raising the rape of German women by the Red Army, or even worse the rape of Polish, Ukrainian, Slovak, Jewish women. the Red Army were none too discriminating in their rape tastes, they get very uncomfortable. Yet I'm willing to bet if the German women of Dresden had been given a choice, between forgoing the Allied Fire bombing or the "romantic" attentions of the Red Army, they would have taken their chances with the latter.
#15085971
jakell wrote:It's already been established here that the term 'rape culture' is not about sexual assault, but a spectrum of other things, so your equation here doesn't work.


No, that has not been established at all.

I think that at this point, it would be good for you to tell us what you think “rape culture” is.

Because of this I'd suggest the the term 'rape culture' itself trivilialises rape, in fact this is the point I've been making all along. I'm reminded of the film The Red Pill' by Cassie Jaye where it was pointed out that the statistic of college 'rape' was massively inflated by including all sorts of other lesser encounters.
Here we see at work the cool psychopathy of ideologues who will distort language (and ultimately perceptions) to any degree to force a desired response.

At the other end of the spectrum, around a decade ago White Nationalists/Supremacists were insisting on the term "White Genocide" to describe the 'browning' of their nations. I suggested that the word genocide was misused here and trivialised the concept. In the same fashion they insisted that the exaggeration was necessary for effect - the same cool psychopathy, the difference (thankfully) being that they weren't in a position to affect general discourse.
It's become less fashionable amongst them now, but not due to my ministrations.


This is all simply your opinion that the term is being misused for nefarious purposes. As such, it is simply an ad hominem so I will simply ignore it.
#15085974
Pants-of-dog wrote:No, that has not been established at all.

This was laid out in godstud's 'definition'. Even though I think that is over-inflated (hence my attempts to boil it down), I'm using that as a baseline.
I think that at this point, it would be good for you to tell us what you think “rape culture” is.

I wouldn't use it at all for reasons I've laid out, but acting on the assumption that there is something there to be eked out I would say it is trying to (over dramatically) describe structural sexism, something that becomes even more stark when codified openly as in Islam.

I think that 'structural sexism' encompass it adequately. I would refute your claim that it doesn't due it not including 'locker room talk' because locker room talk doesn't constitute a culture IMO, I wouldn't even call it a subculture but just loose crude private conversation that is always going to be with us and which trying to eradicate would cause more societal problems than the talk itself (if it causes any at all).
This intolerance of locker room talk is the domain of those I referred to earlier as (authoritarian) utopian dreamers, those who wish to micro-manage and engineer society to the nth degree. At some point one has to let go of the smaller stuff so that the more egregious things can be tackled adequately , and I would draw that line here.

This is all simply your opinion that the term is being misused for nefarious purposes. As such, it is simply an ad hominem so I will simply ignore it.

I did say that although for some the use is incidental (if ill advised), there are bound to be others who see a personal or group gain in propagating it, I think this is true of many concepts. I don't know why would be taking it personally
Last edited by jakell on 21 Apr 2020 17:58, edited 1 time in total.
#15085977
jakell wrote:This was laid out in godstud's 'definition'. Even though I think that is over-inflated (hence my attempts to boil it down), I'm using that as a baseline.

I wouldn't use it at all for reasons I've laid out, but acting on the assumption that there is something there to be eked out I would say it is trying to (over dramatically) describe structural sexism, something that becomes even more stark when codified openly as in Islam.

I think that 'structural sexism' encompass it adequately. I would refute your claim that it doesn't due it not including 'locker room talk' because locker room talk doesn't constitute a culture IMO, I wouldn't even call it a subculture but just loose crude private conversation that is always going to be with us and which trying to eradicate would cause more societal problems than it causes.
This intolerance of locker room talk is the domain of those I referred to earlier as utopian dreamers, those who wish to micro-manage and engineer society to the nth degree. At some point one has to let go of the smaller stuff so that the more egregious things can be tackled adequately , and i would draw that line here.

I did say that although for some the use is incidental (if ill advised), there are bound to be others who see a personal or group gain in propagating it, I think this is true of many concepts. I don't know why would be taking it personally


I think you do not understand what rape culture is.

Have a good day.
#15085979
Oh I think I grasped it alright, along with the manipulative intent involved in coining it in such a way.

I used my interaction with the phrase 'White Genocide' as a comparison to illustrate this, it seems though that the white nationalists displayed a little more integrity in eventually dropping that particular term, although I suspect that they simply had less resolve and got bored with it.

I would do a similar thing with 'micro-aggressions' (and i'm sure there are more from the same stable), although it contains nothing as shrill as 'rape' or 'genocide'.
#15086019
Pants-of-dog wrote:Yes, I am sure that you think white supremacists are more moral and have more integrity than sociologists and women who talk about social conventions that make it easy for men to sexually assault people.

No, I don't think this at all, they might even be on a par. It seems you have difficulty detecting tongue in cheek remarks.
#15086125
I was already thinking of Boghosian et al here as they came up with term 'grievance studies' to describe the disciplines* that seem to be increasingly concerned with feeding the victimhood economy (a number of them end in 'studies' which is probably the inspiration behind the term).

We could probably give it a bit more clout by talking of 'Grievance Culture'

Anyway, dwelling on these cheeky chaps made me wonder if they used the infamous phrase from the title here in their exploration of canine sexuality, and lo and behold, I discovered they had:

Human reactions to rape culture and queer performativity at urban dog parks in Portland, Oregon

Abstract:

This article addresses questions in human geography and the geographies of sexuality by drawing upon one year of embedded in situ observations of dogs and their human companions at three public dog parks in Portland, Oregon. The purpose of this research is to uncover emerging themes in human and canine interactive behavioral patterns in urban dog parks to better understand human a-/moral decision-making in public spaces and uncover bias and emergent assumptions around gender, race, and sexuality. Specifically, and in order of priority, I examine the following questions: (1) How do human companions manage, contribute, and respond to violence in dogs? (2) What issues surround queer performativity and human reaction to homosexual sex between and among dogs? and (3) Do dogs suffer oppression based upon (perceived) gender? It concludes by applying Black feminist criminology categories through which my observations can be understood and by inferring from lessons relevant to human and dog interactions to suggest practical applications that disrupts hegemonic masculinities and improves access to emancipatory spaces. Please note the expression of concern regarding this article, available at https://doi.org/10.1080/0966369X.2018.1507885...


*I would say that humanities such as Sociology are some way along this road.
#15086190
I think you are using the phrase "laugh at.." here to denote shallow dismissal, but Boghosian and Palestinians* are attempting to critique and reveal something far deeper, and darker. I don't feel much levity when contemplating it either - thankfully I am well out of academia by now, otherwise I would be extremely depressed and despondent (the alternative is to be mercifully oblivious to the the longrunning scam).

*This is so weird... the forum is converting Palestinians to 'Palestinians', and I can't change it!

ETA : feck, it's done it again, the word is P.A.L.S.
Last edited by jakell on 22 Apr 2020 17:24, edited 3 times in total.
#15086199
@jakell

Your incredibly vague post does not clarify anything.

It seems like you are trying t9 change the subject away from rape culture, and how it is supported by the same people who oppose abortion, and trying to make this about something else.

If you have nothing intelligent to say about the topic, why are you in the thread?
#15086203
No, I'm on-point and have been consistent (more or less) from my first post:
jakell wrote:As far as I can see, 'rape culture' is just an invented term in order to inject the word "rape" into discussions so that they will become more emotionally charged and therefore useful to those who like to use manipulation, ie the active end of the SJW playbook.

After the emotional charge has been applied (something difficult to remove), then the faux-rationalisation of things being 'linked' comes into play. This second is for those who deny that they are subject to emotional manipulation and want to display outward signs of objectivity.

You don't seem to like the fact that I'm challenging the validity of the term 'rape culture' (and the integrity of some who use it), but this suggests to me that you prefer (or are used to) an echo chamber populated by those who already accept certain basic principles.

If this forum is such an echo-chamber, then I am unaware of this and I'm giving it the benefit of the doubt.
#15086208
jakell wrote:No, I'm on-point and have been consistent (more or less) from my first post:

You don't seem to like the fact that I'm challenging the validity of the term 'rape culture' (and the integrity of some who use it), but this suggests to me that you prefer (or are used to) an echo chamber populated by those who already accept certain basic principles.

If this forum is such an echo-chamber, then I am unaware of this and I'm giving it the benefit of the doubt.


Yes, you have been consistently incorrect.

Instead of looking at the social conventions that make it easy for men to get away with sexual assault, you ASSUME that the evil sociologists and women are out to get someone so they lied about what it means and they are just trying to oppress everyone with their scary words.

This is an ad hominem and a strawman in one.

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