[Brian57]

It was an invention of the Catholic church.

Alright. I'll concede that point because I won't deign to read any more about religion, but in practice this does not change the historical record. Christian polities were/are imperialistic too. Shocking.

With Christian doctrine you get the protestant reformation using the text of the bible to demonstrate the illigitimacy of the Catholic Church. You get Thomas Paine in his Pamphlet "Common Sense" demonstrating the illigitimacy of the divine rule of monarchs and the legitimacy of government, of, by and for the people. With Islamic doctrine we get this current Islamic Fundamentalist reformation using the text of the Koran and Hadiths to demonstrate the illigitimacy of any governance other than an Islamic Caliphate applying Islamic doctrine as law and the duty of Jihad to establish, expand and defend the caliphate.

[ingliz]

Christian doctrine... protestant reformation... Thomas Paine

"All national institutions of churches, whether Jewish, Christian or Turkish, appear to me no other than human inventions, set up to terrify and enslave mankind, and monopolize power and profit."

Thomas Paine, The Author's Profession of Faith (1794)

[Brian57]

"All national institutions of churches, whether Jewish, Christian or Turkish, appear to me no other than human inventions, set up to terrify and enslave mankind, and monopolize power and profit."

Thomas Paine, The Author's Profession of Faith (1794)

If you have a point, put it into words if you can. Even a critic of Christianity can use the text of the bible to demonstrate the illigitimacy of the divine rule of monarchs.

[ingliz]

If you have a point, put it into words if you can.

“It is from the Bible that man has learned cruelty, rapine, and murder; for the belief of a cruel God makes a cruel man.”

Thomas Paine, The Age of Reason

[Brian57]

[“It is from the Bible that man has learned cruelty, rapine, and murder; for the belief of a cruel God makes a cruel man.”

Thomas Paine, The Age of Reason

That is Thomas Paines point and Im not sure of the relevance to the discussion. Since you cant locate your nads and would rather play coy, I assume you are trying to make the point that Paine wasnt a fan of Christianity. Irrelevant to my point other that it demonstrates that even a non christian can use the text of the bible to demonstrate the illigitimacy of the divine rule of monarchs. That only further bolsters my point.

[ingliz]

you are trying to make the point that Paine wasnt a fan of Christianity.

That was not my point. My point is God and Allah are the same god, and it is ridiculous to argue that Christianity is somehow morally superior to Islam when those who believe in this god are committing similar atrocities in his name.

[Harmattan]

That was not my point. My point is God and Allah are the same god, and it is ridiculous to argue that Christianity is somehow morally superior to Islam when those who believe in this god are committing similar atrocities in his name.

Neither God nor Allah exist anyway but you surely never did read the Koran to compare it to the New testament.

Sure, Christians also did horrifying things, because of fear and domination, and all of those compulsions also exist in Islam, Buddhism, nations, etc. But believers who seek answers in their scriptures encounter a hippie's speech when they read the New testament, and a horror story when they do read the Koran, with their role model butchering, raping children, enslaving, etc. Unless you throw away all intellectual honesty, you cannot claim this cannot bear major consequences.

And consequences it bears ; look at the Muslim world.

[ingliz]

Unless you throw away all intellectual honesty, you cannot claim this cannot bear major consequences.

In the Bible, words having to do with killing significantly outnumber words having to do with love.

Example:

"Samaria shall become desolate; she hath rebelled against her God: they shall fall by the sword: their infants shall be dashed in pieces, and their women with child shall be ripped up.

Hosea 13:16 KJV

[Brian57]

That was not my point. My point is God and Allah are the same god, and it is ridiculous to argue that Christianity is somehow morally superior to Islam when those who believe in this god are committing similar atrocities in his name.

Sure you can.

36 “Teacher, which is the greatest commandment in the Law?”
37 Jesus replied: “‘Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.’[a] 38 This is the first and greatest commandment. 39 And the second is like it: ‘Love your neighbor as yourself.’[b] 40 All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments.” .

In contrast to Islam that teaches-

Volume 1, Book 2, Number 26: Narrated Abu Huraira*)
Allah's Apostle was asked, "What is the best deed?" He replied, "To believe in Allah and His Apostle (Muhammad). The questioner then asked, "What is the next (in goodness)? He replied, "To participate in Jihad (religious fighting) in Allah's Cause."

Christians who wage war against unbelievers are acting IN CONTRADICTION of their doctrine. Muslims who wage war against unbelievers are acting IN ACCORDANCE with their doctrine.

In the Bible, words having to do with killing significantly outnumber words having to do with love.
Example:
"Samaria shall become desolate; she hath rebelled against her God: they shall fall by the sword: their infants shall be dashed in pieces, and their women with child shall be ripped up.
Hosea 13:16 KJV

Christians include the New testament. And there is nothing wrong with words that involve killing. Its only when those words are put into commandments for the believers to follow that causes trouble.

Ephesians 2
15 by abolishing in his flesh the law with its commandments and regulations.

Hebrews 8
13 By calling this covenant "new," he has made the first one obsolete; and what is obsolete and aging will soon disappear.

Romans 10
4 Christ is the end of the law so that there may be righteousness for everyone who believes.(*)

Romans 7
6But now, by dying to what once bound us, we have been released from the law so that we serve in the new way of the Spirit, and not in the old way of the written code.

2 Corinthians 3
13We are not like Moses, who would put a veil over his face to keep the Israelites from gazing at it while the radiance was fading away. 14But their minds were made dull, for to this day the same veil remains when the old covenant is read. It has not been removed, because only in Christ is it taken away.

Galatians 3 13 Christ redeemed us from the curse of the law by becoming a curse for us, for it is written: "Cursed is everyone who is hung on a tree."

23Before this faith came, we were held prisoners by the law, locked up until faith should be revealed. 24So the law was put in charge to lead us to Christ[h] that we might be justified by faith. 25Now that faith has come, we are no longer under the supervision of the law

DO NOT DOUBLE POST.

-TIG :edit:

[ingliz]

‘Love your neighbor as yourself.’

"Ye have heard that it was said of them of old time, Thou shalt not kill; and whosoever shall kill shall be in danger of the judgment: But I say unto you, That whosoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment."

Matthew 5:21-22 KJV

Romans 10
4 Christ is the end of the law so that there may be righteousness for everyone who believes.(*)

"Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil. For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled."

Matthew 5:17-18 KJV

[Brian57]

"Ye have heard that it was said of them of old time, Thou shalt not kill; and whosoever shall kill shall be in danger of the judgment: But I say unto you, That whosoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment."

Matthew 5:21-22 KJV

Romans 10
4 Christ is the end of the law so that there may be righteousness for everyone who believes.(*)

"Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil. For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled."

Matthew 5:17-18 KJV


[/quote]


With the quotes again.Cant imagine the relevance to the topic of discussion. If you have a point, put it into words. Dont be coy. Otherwise you are supporting my position. .

[Harmattan]

"Samaria shall become desolate; she hath rebelled against her God: they shall fall by the sword: their infants shall be dashed in pieces, and their women with child shall be ripped up.

This is the Old Testament, which is as barbarian as the Koran.

"Ye have heard that it was said of them of old time, Thou shalt not kill; and whosoever shall kill shall be in danger of the judgment: But I say unto you, That whosoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment."

Now that is the New Testament and you could also mention Paul and the Corinthians about women and gays. But, honestly, does it even remotely compare to the Koran? Did you ever read it? Political correctness should not prevail over critical thinking.

And there is nothing wrong with words that involve killing. Its only when those words are put into commandments for the believers to follow that causes trouble.

I disagree with this part: examples matter. If your role model (your god or your prophet) does something barbarian, it justifies others to do the same thing. Muhammad's example is a legal basis in the Islamic law.

[Dagoth Ur]

The Old Testament is still the holy text of Christianity.

[ingliz]

Its only when those words are put into commandments for the believers to follow that causes trouble.

God commands we kill all unbelievers:

"And that prophet, or that dreamer of dreams, shall be put to death; because he hath spoken to turn you away from the LORD your God."

Deuteronomy 13: 5

"If thy brother, the son of thy mother, or thy son, or thy daughter, or the wife of thy bosom, or thy friend, which is as thine own soul, entice thee secretly, saying, Let us go and serve other gods, which thou hast not known, thou, nor thy fathers, thou shalt not consent unto him, nor hearken unto him; neither shall thine eye pity him, neither shalt thou spare, neither shalt thou conceal him: But thou shalt surely kill him; thine hand shall be first upon him to put him to death, and afterwards the hand of all the people."

Deuteronomy 13:6, 8-9

"Ye shall utterly destroy all the places, wherein the nations which ye shall possess served their gods, upon the high mountains, and upon the hills, and under every green tree: And ye shall overthrow their altars, and break their pillars, and burn their groves with fire; and ye shall hew down the graven images of their gods, and destroy the names of them out of that place."

Deuteronomy 12:2-3

"Thou shalt surely smite the inhabitants of that city with the edge of the sword, destroying it utterly, and all that is therein, and the cattle thereof, with the edge of the sword."

Deuteronomy 13:15

"And Israel joined himself unto Baalpeor: and the anger of the LORD was kindled against Israel. And the LORD said unto Moses, 'Take all the heads of the people and hang them up before the LORD against the sun, that the fierce anger of the LORD may be turned away from Israel.'"

Numbers 25:3-4

"The righteous shall rejoice when he sees the vengeance. He shall wash his feet in the blood of the wicked."

Psalms 58:10

"Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil. For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled."

Matthew 5:17-18

"Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword."

Matthew 10:34

"It is a sword for slaughter— a sword for great slaughter, closing in on them from every side. So that hearts may melt with fear and the fallen be many, I have stationed the sword for slaughter at all their gates... I the Lord have spoken."

Ezekiel 21:14-17

does it even remotely compare to the Koran?

Matthew 5:21-22:

"They who have waged war in obedience to the divine command, or in conformity with His laws, have represented in their persons the public justice or the wisdom of government, and in this capacity have put to death wicked men; such persons have by no means violated the commandment, 'Thou shalt not kill'."

Augustine of Hippo, City of God

[Harmattan]

...

For one quote in favor of the Old testament there are ten against it. Do you see Christians following Hebrew rituals?

In the end the only quote you could find that is not in the Old testament is not even in the Bible.

On the other hand, should you read the Koran, you could easily collect hundreds of completely wicked things in favor of crimes, pedophilia, rape, slavery, imperialism, etc. Time for intellectual honesty: a hippie and a feudal warlord are not equivalent.

[ingliz]

it is ridiculous to argue that Christianity is somehow morally superior to Islam when those who believe in this god are committing similar atrocities in his name.

Example:

On May 12, 1996

LS: "We have heard that half a million children have died... And, you know, is the price worth it?"

Madeleine Albright (then U.S. Ambassador to the United Nations): "We think the price is worth it."

[Brian57]

In the end the only quote you could find that is not in the Old testament is not even in the Bible..

He only demonstrates my point for me.

[ingliz]

For one quote in favor of the Old testament there are ten against it

All of Scripture is inspired by God (2 Tim. 3:16). This means that the Old Testament is just as inspired as the New Testament and thus an expression of the will of Christ.

a hippie and a feudal warlord are not equivalent.

Hippie?

"let him who has no sword sell his mantle and buy one"

Luke 22:36

is not even in the Bible.

Just War doctrine is rooted in Christian theology.

"[The state] is God’s servant for your good. But if you do wrong, be afraid, for rulers do not bear the sword for no reason. They are God’s servants, agents of wrath to bring punishment on the wrongdoer."

Romans 13:4

Augustine's definition of justice extended beyond simple legal rights and included a respect for divine rights. Therefore, the justification of war was also made possible in cases where Christian law, or Christian orthodoxy or the rights of Church hierarchy were violated. This eventually paved the way for the Crusades which synthesised holy war with the just war. After the Edict of Thessalonica in 381, Christianity became the official religion of the Empire. Legislation obliged the government to defend the teachings of the Church from heresy, and ultimately, heresy was assimilated with the crime of treason, thus sowing the seeds of animosity between believer and unbeliever.

[EU rope]

Mr. ingliz, those were parables and Jesus admitted it when he spoke to his pupils:

“To you has been given the secret of the kingdom of God, but for those outside, everything comes in parables (Mark 4:10-12)

Is there some similar statement of Muhammed? Did he ever said his words are not to be taken literally?

[Harmattan]

"let him who has no sword sell his mantle and buy one"

This is right before he goes to Jerusalem where he knows he will encounter his death because Judas sold him. He asks his disciples to buy two swords. Not to use them (he explicitly blames one of his disciple for using it the day after and two swords would be useless anyway), but to fulfill Isaiah's prophecy: those two men are arrested and crucified by his side.

The same goes about the "I came here to bring a sword" by the way: this has nothing to do with a call to violence, being only an acknowledgment of the conflicts that religion inevitably create, among either side. The next verses make it pretty obvious.


The only dubious things I know of in the New Testament are in Paul and St Jean. But as for Jesus he was nothing but a hippie precursor. A narcissistic paranoid and manipulative sect leader, sure, a proselyte aware that proselytism generates troubles, indeed, but a straight pacifist and humanist without any possible doubt.

Just War doctrine is rooted in Christian theology.

Political groups, religious or not, always create war for imperialist reasons and will always find justifications for that. This is true about Buddhism, Shintoism, Communism, Nationalism, Pacifism, Antifascism, etc.

But besides of that Islam lies on the character of a pedophile feudal rapist imperialist leading a crusade with a divine mandate! And any Muslim looking for answers in his scriptures is faced with this image and all of the atrocities he committed, and a very clear and strict code of laws from the VIIth century promoting crucifixions, mutilations, stoning, slavery, apartheid, etc. It is inevitable that this forms another, distinct, source of violence. It is intellectually dishonest to claim that this cannot have any consequence.

Claiming that Christianity and Islam are the same is like claiming that Nazis and Jewish resistants were the same because both committed violences and were filled with anger. And claiming that the Koran's content does not matter is like claiming that Nazism had nothing to do with the Holocaust and the rest. Sorry for the inappropriate Godwin point and comparisons, but I hope it demonstrates the shakiness of your stance.