[EU rope]

Turks boo minute of silence for French massacre

So long for the "Islamists" and "radical Islam" theories of the lefties and Islamic apologists. Turkey has been a secular country for nearly 100 years now and nothing. The above video is very indicative and signifying. You can't turn blood into water, I guess.
They could have just kept silent for 30 seconds (it's not really a minute) and show some respect but no - "we have to rub the infidels nose". Very indicative indeed.

[Hong Wu]

They're just football hooligans, although the EU's relationship with Turkey is pretty cringe-worthy no matter how you look at it.

[Red_Army]

I think it'd be a bit different if the whole of the Islamic world was against you. There were more than 7 islams in France if I recall.

[ThirdTerm]

Arab nationalism is rearing its ugly head in the wake of the Paris attacks and a group of Arab men were also caught chanting 'Allahu Akbar' on a subway train in Europe. It was a friendly football match between Greece and Turkey, which have historical grievances towards each other, and I doubt if these friendly matches would actually ease tensions between hostile neighbours such as Japan and South Korea.

Loud jeering is audible as players from both sides stood silently in the centre circle before kick-off, with reported shouts of 'Allahu Akbar' - the Islamic phrase meaning 'God is greater' - filtering through the stands. After the match Turkey manager Fatih Terim was quoted as saying: 'Our fans should have behaved during the national anthems and during the one minute silence. 'Greece is our neighbour. Today is world neighbours day, but our fans didn't behave like neighbours in this match.' Meanwhile, Turkish Prime Minister Ahmet Davutoglu and Greek counterpart Alexis Tsipras watched the game together, in a sign of reconciliation between the two neighbours, whose relationship has suffered from hostilities in the past.
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/footba ... anbul.html

@lenok_radionova Люди, берегите мир, в котором мы живём!
People, take care of the world in which we live! #PrayForParis 4d

@taylorswift13 Praying for Paris. Our hearts are breaking for and with you.

[Red_Army]

ThirdTerm, how would Korean ice skaters or Taylor Swift respond?

[Doomhammer]

I don't disagree with the premise of the thread because political conservatism (in an Islamic context) is to blame for these attitudes. However, the OP neglects the fact that many football fans reacted similarly to the bombing of their own citizens a month earlier during Turkey EC qualifier against Iceland. Observe:

[youtube]pUbfbKI342w[/youtube]
Link
Note: Many of the victims included secular Turks who were sympathetic to the HDP's cause.

This is a problem of political mobilization religious parochialism to justify elites' self-aggrandizing policies. Combine this with a poorly educated, immature, reactionary population that is permanently resentful of anything "foreign", the outcome is quite understandable -- reprehensible as they are. High levels of social capital, institutional constraints, and prevailing norms not only marginalize these attitudes in Western societies, but actively punish them when they are expressed. National policy declines when ethno-religious parochialism infiltrates the state.

[EU rope]

However, the OP neglects the fact that many football fans reacted similarly to the bombing of their own citizens a month earlier during Turkey EC qualifier against Iceland.

That's because it was a Kurdish gathering and most of the victims were Kurds. So, the Turks didn't give a shit.
Only proves my point, I think.

[Nets]

Soccer fans are notoriously scummy, this doesn't surprise me. More a reflection on soccer than Turkey.

[Gletkin]

"Greeks Boo 9-11 Silence"
"‘Adolf Hitler's coming to get you’ The sick chants of West Ham fans at Tottenham"

Yeah I wouldn't look to football/soccer terraces for theological authority.

[skinster]

They shout "Death to Arabs" at football games in Israel.


All of the above = football and is retarded and I'm sure I can prove this with science, but give me a couple of days...

[Harmattan]

It's not Isis, it's Islam

Of course.

Most of Muslims pose no problems because most of believers, in any religion, care little about religious scriptures and their identity is mostly determined by something else.


But as soon as one takes religion seriously and seek answers in the scriptures, troubles start. And this is even truer with Islam which has very barbarian scriptures that form a middle-age code of laws that all Muslims are supposed to apply. The Koran is a nauseating book where pedophilia, forced weddings, crucifixions, mutilations, slaughters of any boy above 13yo, slavery, non-Muslim apartheid, and such are either prescribed as laws that all Muslims must follow or encouraged by the example of Muhammad (an example from which many Islamic laws are derived). It is foolish to believe that Islam compares in any way to Christianism, it is far closer from Nazism, even though the New testament has a few retrograde doctrines.

So the only solution is to de-Islamize Western Muslims. We once thought this would occur spontaneously, but experience showed on the opposite that immigrants' descendants are more islamized and that they embrace more retrograde versions of Islam. Time does not make things better, it makes them worse. This is a worldwide dynamics in the Islamic world and there is no sign of inversion so far.


How to de-islamize Western Muslims? Prohibit foreign funds to build temples (will severely slow mosques' construction), prohibit foreign priests, use social housing to break concentrations of Muslims (resettle Muslim neighborhoods with non-Muslims), promote a negative image of Islam (it currently has a positive one among Muslims where deep religious engagement is positively seen), promote strict secularism in public affairs, etc. And fight non-religious discriminations to offer a golden secular path to those citizens.

[Zionist Nationalist]

They shout "Death to Arabs" at football games in Israel.


All of the above = football and is retarded and I'm sure I can prove this with science, but give me a couple of days...

You allways have to put Israel in everything
You are obsessed with Israel

Those fans that shout death to arabs are from.specific team they dont represent all of the other Israeli fans and teams which have arab players

[Princip]

As long as Islam can be interpreted in peaceful ways and there are millions of Muslims who disagree with barbaric Wahhabist nonsense ISIS preaches, it is ISIS. However it is true that ISIS is only a symptom of what is the real problem, which is Islamic fascism, aka Wahhabism.

[Harmattan]

As long as Islam can be interpreted in peaceful ways and there are millions of Muslims who disagree with barbaric Wahhabist nonsense ISIS preaches, it is ISIS. However it is true that ISIS is only a symptom of what is the real problem, which is Islamic fascism, aka Wahhabism.

What ?! But ISIS has never been Wahhabist. On the opposite they are enemies of Wahhabism and they want to decapitate the Saudi family. The Saudis used them at some point against Shia Muslims, but so did we. It is mere realpolitik.


Among fundamentalist movements, Wahhabism and ISIS are only two of the many flavors. And beyond what you call Islamo-fascism, know that most of the Muslim world is willingly falling prey to theocratic movements who want to use the sharia as their code of laws, in accordance to Muslims' opinions. For example 40% of Mosques in France are controlled by the UOIF, which is said to be affiliated to the Muslim brotherhood whose slogan is "the Koran is our constitution". The Muslim brotherhood is not considered as a terrorist organization by the USA or the EU despite the fact that they more or less control the Hamas.


As for interpreting Islam in peaceful ways, it requires quite an intellectual stretch. Fortunately most of Muslims, like believers of any religion, don't give a damn about their religion and its interpretations.

[Princip]

What ?! But ISIS has never been Wahhabist. On the opposite they are enemies of Wahhabism and they want to decapitate the Saudi family. The Saudis used them at some point against Shia Muslims, but so did we. It is mere realpolitik.

What are the exact differences between Wahhabism and ISIS's fundamentalism?

[Harmattan]

What are the exact differences between Wahhabism and ISIS's fundamentalism?

Wahhabism was born as a violent, imperialist, literal and ritualistic movement that wanted to form an unified Caliphate for all Muslims. Its founder formed an alliance with the Saudi family and made them spiritual and temporal rulers of all Muslims, and a streak of conquests occurred after that where they seized he Mecca.

But later the Saudi toned down Wahhabism, especially the imperialist part as it tends to angry your mighty neighbors and trade partners. And they westernized themselves in the recent decades and even promoted peaceful forms of Salafism in the West.

So on the religious side ISIS takes its roots in Wahhabism, but they reject the Saudi family's authority, they went back to the imperialist origins of Wahhabism and the caliphate project, and they made their movement even more violent than original Wahhabism.


Imagine if Hitler became a moderate tour operator after seizing Jerusalem and some SS decided to found something like Nazism, but worse, and vowed to kill Hitler as a traitor and all dark-haired people in the world. That would be ISIS. Except that more than one century separates Wahhabism's softening from ISIS.

[Princip]

I see, but in this case, Wahhabism is really just different in its Saudi interpretation, but not in its basic tenets. So I was slightly incorrect to call ISIS Wahhabist, but it's good to know that it wasn't a tremendous error.

Anyway, secularization could be an answer but how do you secularize societies massively based upon faith without falling into the same mistake as Kemalists (recklessness and brutality)?

[Russkie]

Most of Muslims pose no problems because most of believers, in any religion, care little about religious scriptures and their identity is mostly determined by something else.

What are you rambling about? religion is determined by scripture and the church. You speak like a post-protestant atheist.

[Rich]

I see, but in this case, Wahhabism is really just different in its Saudi interpretation, but not in its basic tenets. So I was slightly incorrect to call ISIS Wahhabist, but it's good to know that it wasn't a tremendous error.

No ISIS is quite different to Al Qaeda which is ecumenical Sunni and has generally sought to downplay its differences with the Shia. Compared to the Taliban, Al Qaeda were the height of moderate, tolerant modernisers. I'm not quite up on the historical details but there is some shared lineage between the Arabian Wahabhis and the Pashtun Deobandis.

Back in 2004 I failed to recognise the genius of Abu Musab al-Zarqawi. The theological narrow Salafi stance was just right for their situation. As they used to say in the Wild West: "Dead heretics don't tell tales."

[Harmattan]

What are you rambling about? religion is determined by scripture and the church. You speak like a post-protestant atheist.

I am simply stating a fact: most believers do not give a damn about their religion. They vaguely believe in a god, they follow a few rituals such as Christmas' mass, the Bar Mitzvahs or or the Ramadan, but they never open their scriptures, they are aware they are full of bullshits and they seek their answers elsewhere while remorselessly drinking alcohol and having plenty of sex before, after and outside their weddings.

As for my own personal disbeliefs I fail to see how they relate. But I am indeed an atheist and I have always been, from an atheist family and a catholic background. I opened a religious text at 20 for the first time, and only to educate myself about religions. This quickly made me realize why believers usually act without any relation to their religion.

If people around the world were taking religion seriously, the world would be vastly different - without an ounce of liberalism and on fire.