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#14905523
Albert wrote: As Pant pointed out a tribal African man has much more adversity and necessity, yet he is not as innovative as a civilized white cis man in America or Europe. How come? There must be more to it.


The conditions of their environment may be important also, it seems that advanced civilizations have tended to develop in climates that were either more temperate or arid, the similarities between the two being greater scarcity. Which goes back to the point that necessity due to resource management for long term orientation is due in part to it being unwise and dangerous to gratify immediate desires.

For instance, you are more unlikely to build a complicated defense fortress if you grew up on a peaceful jungle island in the south pacific, there would be just no need to do so.

Likewise, if you live in a communal tribe where the environment is warm, seasonally predictable, generally fertile, and having an abundance of wild game....there is no necessity in getting crazy about storing food long-term and inventing the means to do so.....so on the rare occasion there is a major famine or a warlord that prevents resource-access, these people experience adversity, but this adversity is due to their prior acclimating to environmental conditions that naturally raise time preferences. Which is my point, the adversity that causes people to innovate is scarcity. Central africa does not have natural scarcity like central Iraq does, and it is because of this fact that people in Africa end up suffering famines with more difficultly when they occur, because they are not accustomed to dealing with scarcity on a regular basis.

Indeed, this is the case with island life is it not? When people think of paradise (I am an exception in this), they think of a fruitful island with warm breezes where clothes are optional and you can walk three paces and grab a banana off of a tree for supper, a place where tireless labor and armed self-defense are neither necessary.

Under such conditions, civilizational development is impeded because long-term savings and strategies and scarcity-management are all discouraged not encouraged. There is then also a correlation between such instant-gratification type cultures and both fiscal irresponsibility and sexual immorality.

Another old saying is relevant here: "idleness is the devil's playground."

How true indeed. A people that cannot afford to be idle, are almost always a people that are more morally sound in their lifestyles (from a Christian perspective, of course).
#14905527
I think the whole thing where the US took a continent’s worth of land from indigenous people, and then enslaved and stole the labour of blacks, is what made the US rich.

This seems like the exact opposite of letting each person fulfill their potential.
#14905529
Pants-of-dog wrote:I think the whole thing where the US took a continent’s worth of land from indigenous people, and then enslaved and stole the labour of blacks, is what made the US rich.


Pussies should have put up a better fight.....see I can troll too. :lol:

This is a very broad generalization and is pretty irrelevant to what we have been discussing.
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By Albert
#14905530
You make excellent points VS. It is just sometimes it seem to work in reverse. For example lets take western Europe. This regions has made tremendous amount advancements in past millennium. Yet before the Romans arrived there it was a land of barbarians and savagery not much different to that Africa and Americas before Europeans arrived there.

Western European climate is one of the most stable on earth, most temperate and comfortable to human habitat. There is little environmental adversity there, in fact it is the opposite in comparison with places like Egypt and Mesopotamia.

I'm not even speaking about southern Europe, like Spain, French Riviera, Italy and Greece. That is pretty much California of Europe.
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By One Degree
#14905532
A lot of the above comments are based in hubris. You are deciding the level of adversity of others based solely upon your view of it. You can not compare them. There also seems to be an assumption a poor African is unlikely to be a ‘thinker’. How would you know? Your judgement is based upon his inability to expose his views to others.
Thinkers have existed through out human history from our very beginning. Economics and social conditions are irrelevant. History proves, not only have they always existed, we may not have made any improvement over them. Adversity may not be the cause, but it is much more likely than the social issues mentioned.
#14905534
Victoribus Spolia wrote:Pussies should have put up a better fight.....see I can troll too. :lol:

This is a very broad generalization and is pretty irrelevant to what we have been discussing.


I almost bought that shirt for my wife when I got the I “plane” NY shirt.

Regardless of your feelings about how you think I am trolling, it is a fact that takng the land and labour of others can enrich one. I see your feelings have not been hurt by @Albert despite the faxt the also made irrelevant generalisations.
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By Albert
#14905535
One Degree wrote:A lot of the above comments are based in hubris. You are deciding the level of adversity of others based solely upon your view of it. You can not compare them. There also seems to be an assumption a poor African is unlikely to be a ‘thinker’. How would you know? Your judgement is based upon his inability to expose his views to others.
Thinkers have existed through out human history from our very beginning. Economics and social conditions are irrelevant. History proves, not only have they always existed, we may not have made any improvement over them. Adversity may not be the cause, but it is much more likely than the social issues mentioned.
I'm basing my argument on historical precedent, geography and comparing them to how societies have developed around the world. With this I'm trying to point out that environment of adversity does not necessary lead to better social innovation.
#14905539
Albert wrote:There is little environmental adversity there, in fact it is the opposite in comparison with places like Egypt and Mesopotamia.


they still have harsh winters, which is all I am saying, temperate climates and arid climates do have great scarcity compared to lets say, the jungle.

Much less wild fruit, less bio-diversity, less immediately available water, the need to save food during winter, the need to exchange types of clothing over winter, etc.

Albert wrote:Yet before the Romans arrived there it was a land of barbarians and savagery not much different to that Africa and Americas before Europeans arrived there.


Well, some of that was recent migrations too, you must realize that the Germanic tribes were moving into those regions and migrating quit radically up until the Roman conquests of those regions and that general instability from new populations is partially what led to Rome's collapse, so I don't think that this is necessarily a 1-to-1 with tropical areas.

Nonetheless, even post-Rome, the temperate-climate western nations did create civilization and arguably of the greatest heights and without a centralized imperial government.

There are few cases of such occurring to such extents in the tropics. In the deserts? Yes. In the temperate regions? Yes. In the med. which is sorta in-between? Yes. In The Tropics? Not so much, not in anything near the same scope. The best possible exceptions might be the Aztecs and Incas, but once again, they are the exceptions and not the rule and the Aztecs developed in an climate that was not purely tropical, but also a great deal arid in places.

I am not arguing this point too hard, only saying that there is a relationship between ease-of-life (whether provided by government or climate) and lack of sophistication and morality.

That is all and I think this pattern holds pretty strongly in all truth.

What alternative are you suggesting? I am curious....
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By One Degree
#14905545
Albert wrote:I'm basing my argument on historical precedent, geography and comparing them to how societies have developed around the world. With this I'm trying to point out that environment of adversity does not necessary lead to better social innovation.


But this is confusing thinking with civilization, knowledge, and ideology. Thinking individuals come from all varieties of these. Thinking is separate from all of these, therefore none of these can be the catalyst for thinking.
#14905547
One Degree wrote:Thinking is separate from all of these, therefore none of these can be the catalyst for thinking.


I would say that managing scarcity has to be a catalyst for thinking.....or else death.
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By One Degree
#14905550
Victoribus Spolia wrote:I would say that managing scarcity has to be a catalyst for thinking.....or else death.


I agree it is a very likely candidate that could be woven into most scenarios, but might be a stretch in some.
Did Newton experience scarcity before the apple hit him or just some other adversity? Scarcity is just one of many adversities, so probably too limiting imo. I fully agree the lack of scarcity inhibits thinking, but that does not make it the only catalyst for thinking.
#14905551
One Degree wrote:I agree it is a very likely candidate that could be woven into most scenarios, but might be a stretch in some.
Did Newton experience scarcity before the apple hit him or just some other adversity? Scarcity is just one of many adversities, so probably too limiting imo. I fully agree the lack of scarcity inhibits thinking, but that does not make it the only catalyst for thinking.


Thats fair, but as far as the general intellectual condition of a society, the society will trend upwards under conditions of relative scarcity and will stagnate or tend downwards in times of abundance; wherein, long-term resource management becomes superfluous. That is my only point on this.
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By Albert
#14905553
One Degree wrote:
But this is confusing thinking with civilization, knowledge, and ideology. Thinking individuals come from all varieties of these. Thinking is separate from all of these, therefore none of these can be the catalyst for thinking.
If development was only an outcome of thinking individuals within society that each society has an equal capacity off, then there would be no discrepancies in development we find between different societies. It appears that collective also has a bearing on development of society and it is not just an individual effort alone.

Victoribus Spolia wrote:
I am not arguing this point too hard, only saying that there is a relationship between ease-of-life (whether provided by government or climate) and lack of sophistication and morality.

That is all and I think this pattern holds pretty strongly in all truth.

What alternative are you suggesting? I am curious....
Well since we are in this thread. I believe it is god in the end. It appears devotion to god is the best thing we can do.

Athenians after their victory at Marathon took care to cut their celebrations short, as to not become too arrogant in front of god(s). Romans were renowned for their devotion and good morality, even their worst enemies respected them for it. The English build Lincolns Cathedral the first man made structure to surpass the Pyramids. Perhaps if the French finished the Notre-Dame then they would have rivaled the British better.

So in the end it comes down to our devotion. As god promised to reward us for it and historically he seemed have had the nations that showed their devotion.
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By One Degree
#14905554
Victoribus Spolia wrote:Thats fair, but as far as the general intellectual condition of a society, the society will trend upwards under conditions of relative scarcity and will stagnate or tend downwards in times of abundance; wherein, long-term resource management becomes superfluous. That is my only point on this.


I agree with your assessment.
As an aside, I was thinking the apple was the adversity which caused the thinking. The apple deserves more of the credit.:)
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By One Degree
#14905556
@Albert
No, societal development is more dependent upon accident than anything. This may include the accident of accepting an individual’s thinking when another society rejected the same thoughts from another thinker. It is the accident of what ‘non thinkers’ accidentally choose. Propaganda (the ability to promote your view) would also be an accidental coincidence.
This does not reject your view entirely, it is just the game is too new. I believe the best ideas will eventually permeate all societies and so the ‘thinkers’ will all have the same impact eventually on society.
#14905562
Albert wrote:Well since we are in this thread. I believe it is god in the end. It appears devotion to god is the best thing we can do.


I of course would agree, but I would not call that an alternative per se, for ultimately the reason the love of God has been abandoned is because people have come to worship their comforts. Like with morality and sophistication, religion and even true religion seems to be more widespread in the midst of scarcity than in times of abundance.

Why is this the case? Sin, for if we as human beings were truly rational and good, then when we had abundance we would worship God more (out of appreciation for His gifts), and not less as we typically do. ;)

As we all know, people tend to pray more when things are going bad than when they are going good.
Last edited by Victoribus Spolia on 12 Apr 2018 19:50, edited 1 time in total.
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By One Degree
#14905563
Delete
Last edited by One Degree on 12 Apr 2018 19:52, edited 2 times in total.
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By Albert
#14905566
Victoribus Spolia wrote:I of course would agree, but I would not call that an alternative per se, for ultimately the reason the love of God has been abandoned is because people have come to worship their comforts. Like with morality and sophistication, religion and even true religion seems to be more widespread in the midst of scarcity than in times of abundance.

Why is this the case? Sin, for if we as human beings were truly rational and good, then when we had abundance we would worship God more (out of appreciation for His gifts), and not less as we typically do. ;)

As we all know, people tend to pray more when things are going bad than when they are going good.
I do not think it is abundance and prosperity that drives people to sin. Is it not kingdom of heaven full of abundance, peace and prosperity?
#14905573
Albert wrote:I do not think it is abundance and prosperity that drives people to sin. Is it not kingdom of heaven full of abundance, peace and prosperity?


Sure, but we are cleansed of sin when we enter into Heaven.

It is sin that causes us to become wicked instead of pious in the midst of abundance, when rationality would seem to demand that true believers would become more worshipful under such conditions, not less.
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